Riewldt - very interesting..

[markp]

I don't think it's the game plan, even if it is the ugly Sydney style we're trying to replicate we should be able to pull it off.

I don't think it's player fitness or skills, we know they are fit and (most of them) are able play and kick straight.

Confidence seems down, and this is affecting judgement, disposal etc....

I bring it back to team cohesion. Where did Voss get his 'theory' from? No one really came out and contradicted it.... Why did Max go so ape at Goose? Roo said last night it wasn't a bad sign, a bad sign would be if he no longer cared enough to react??? Garbage..... GT pops up at a convenient time and makes a divisive comment (is he shyte stirring behind the scene? Would he?!)... How many times this year has a player been knocked around (or out, like X) and no one has said boo in retaliation?

You put a few dozen people together from different backgrounds in any workplace and you try to facilitate (and hope for) cohesion. Sometimes a group really clicks, sometimes they do not. Compare what the North Melbourne has been able to achieve with limited resources, against the Dockers with plenty.

Just a theory....

[krabb]

WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO GO OUT AND PLAY AN ATTACKING STYLE OF GAME WHICH WE ARE NOR EXECUTING"

Could it be as simple as Lyon cant get the best out of these players?

Say what you like about GT...he had them playing as a team.

A good coach will always get the best out of his players.

I hear the word 'confidence' is down a lot...why?

Why arent our players confident?

I see hesitation and confusion out there...i see frustration and anger...i dont see a unified team...now who's to blame for this?

This team knows how to win games...its something else thats stuffing their heads up IMO.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

confidence is down because i believe we are still learning about an accountable side to our game...not an accountable gameplan but a facet to it

there is no point to draw comparisons to rl and gt's gameplans/styles as neither of them have delivered flags...thats the main reason why we are here...to see our team win the flag...not just to play finals footy...maybe get close at 3 quarter time to the eventual premiers 2 years in a row...

[saintsRrising]

Could it be as simple as Lyon cant get the best out of these players?

.

Yes it could be..

The next several weeks will show where we are at in this regard...
..the cards are now clearly on the table.....

...players have to start playing the right card game or serious questions need to be asked why not.



Other posibility is that some players also simply do not have the will or heart to catch Roo's bus.

Or a bit of both.

However a coach clearly needs to be able to motivate his players.

[rodgerfox]

This is so funny. And SS at it's finest.

Under Thomas, he had no Plan B. A weak game plan that revolved around 'kick it to Roo'. When that plan was challenged, he had nothing. The best list in the comp but no nous to utilise it.

Under Lyon, his plan is fine. It's good. It works for 2 quarters a week. But it's the players that ignore it. The players are the problem.


To me, the exact same issues exist that existed under Thomas. We have a mentally fragile list that lacks on-field leadership.

All game plans work when you have your best players available to carry them out, and they give 100% effort all the time.

That, I'm afraid to say, is a fact. There are no tricks or rabbits out of the hat.

I hope now, finally, those who argued this point with me now get it.

Thomas' game plan and style was unbeatable when our players gave 100%. Even with injury, 100% effort meant we won. And won well.

When we didn't give the effort - we lost and looked slow and one dimensional.

Sound familiar??

The only difference now, is that the list under Thomas took 2 years to learn his plan. There were glimpses in 02, and there were steep learning periods too (remember the uber flood game against Sydney?).

This list has only had 1.25 years to learn Lyon's plan. There are glimpses of it, and we look good. There are also glimpses of learning weeks.


Once the group learns the plan, and can consistently give 100% effort as a group, we'll be fine.


The biggest irony is the people in here who are defending the coach based on the fact that it's players who are aren't listening to him.

The irony is fantastic.

[Ice Wolf]

I think Ross needs to do whatever he did to Milney before the Essendon game to the rest of the team that ain't doing what he wants. Maybe Milney went a bit far with his selflessness that game but he seemed to execute the Plan a lot closer to what was desired (It was almost like the fear of God was put into Milney that game).

Comparing Lyon's plan with Thomas' plan, I think when they play the plan correctly they look a much better side than when playing Thomas' plan. If they just keep it up for 4 or even 3 quarters instead of 1 we would be smashing other teams or at least winning comfortably. It seems that the team gets ahead and then just switches off most games. Or screws up the 1st quarter and then seem as if they just accept defeat. I'd be really frustrated if i was in the coaches box.

[markp]

This is so funny. And SS at it's finest.

Under Thomas, he had no Plan B. A weak game plan that revolved around 'kick it to Roo'. When that plan was challenged, he had nothing. The best list in the comp but no nous to utilise it.

Under Lyon, his plan is fine. It's good. It works for 2 quarters a week. But it's the players that ignore it. The players are the problem.


To me, the exact same issues exist that existed under Thomas. We have a mentally fragile list that lacks on-field leadership.

All game plans work when you have your best players available to carry them out, and they give 100% effort all the time.

That, I'm afraid to say, is a fact. There are no tricks or rabbits out of the hat.

I hope now, finally, those who argued this point with me now get it.

Thomas' game plan and style was unbeatable when our players gave 100%. Even with injury, 100% effort meant we won. And won well.

When we didn't give the effort - we lost and looked slow and one dimensional.

Sound familiar??

The only difference now, is that the list under Thomas took 2 years to learn his plan. There were glimpses in 02, and there were steep learning periods too (remember the uber flood game against Sydney?).

This list has only had 1.25 years to learn Lyon's plan. There are glimpses of it, and we look good. There are also glimpses of learning weeks.


Once the group learns the plan, and can consistently give 100% effort as a group, we'll be fine.


The biggest irony is the people in here who are defending the coach based on the fact that it's players who are aren't listening to him.

The irony is fantastic.

What makes you think it's the same people saying both things?

RL is not a divisive control freak who doesn't rate ruckmen...

It's Hamill we miss most, not GT.

[rodgerfox]

This is so funny. And SS at it's finest.

Under Thomas, he had no Plan B. A weak game plan that revolved around 'kick it to Roo'. When that plan was challenged, he had nothing. The best list in the comp but no nous to utilise it.

Under Lyon, his plan is fine. It's good. It works for 2 quarters a week. But it's the players that ignore it. The players are the problem.


To me, the exact same issues exist that existed under Thomas. We have a mentally fragile list that lacks on-field leadership.

All game plans work when you have your best players available to carry them out, and they give 100% effort all the time.

That, I'm afraid to say, is a fact. There are no tricks or rabbits out of the hat.

I hope now, finally, those who argued this point with me now get it.

Thomas' game plan and style was unbeatable when our players gave 100%. Even with injury, 100% effort meant we won. And won well.

When we didn't give the effort - we lost and looked slow and one dimensional.

Sound familiar??

The only difference now, is that the list under Thomas took 2 years to learn his plan. There were glimpses in 02, and there were steep learning periods too (remember the uber flood game against Sydney?).

This list has only had 1.25 years to learn Lyon's plan. There are glimpses of it, and we look good. There are also glimpses of learning weeks.


Once the group learns the plan, and can consistently give 100% effort as a group, we'll be fine.


The biggest irony is the people in here who are defending the coach based on the fact that it's players who are aren't listening to him.

The irony is fantastic.

What makes you think it's the same people saying both things?

RL is not a divisive control freak who doesn't rate ruckmen...

It's Hamill we miss most, not GT.

Huh?

Did you even read my post????

[barks4eva]

If the Saints regularly do no play as instructed, that's at least as big a concern as any around the actual gameplan. Plans that aren't followed have a funny habit of not working.

...

getting warmer?

At least as big a concern you say, THIS IS THE CONCERN, THE MAJOR ONE, FAIR DINKUM

When is the penny going to drop around here with the delusional dumbed down, GT dong bongers, our list currently is very very ordinary

Game plans turn to shyte when you don't actually have the cattle to carry them out

Q. WHY? A. Poor recruiting for 5 years will stuff up ANY list, thanks Grant

All this absolute trype you read on here from know nothing flaggetating flogs "our list is great on paper" blah blah blah, yada yada etc...etc... is absolute codswallop and those numbnuts who keep spweing forth their buffoon laden drivel should be walloped with a cod.

Comparing our previous list from 2004, 2005 to what we have now is like comparing Paris Hilton to Mother Theresa

FAIR DINKUM

The only and I do mean the ONLY way forward is to play the kids, develop fresh young talent and drop the gop's who's pace and skill is more suited to the peanut farm, rather than the Dome or G.

[rodgerfox]

If the Saints regularly do no play as instructed, that's at least as big a concern as any around the actual gameplan. Plans that aren't followed have a funny habit of not working.

...

getting warmer?

At least as big a concern you say, THIS IS THE CONCERN, THE MAJOR ONE, FAIR DINKUM

When is the penny going to drop around here with the delusional dumbed down, GT dong bongers, our list currently is very very ordinary

Game plans turn to shyte when you don't actually have the cattle to carry them out

Q. WHY? A. Poor recruiting for 5 years will stuff up ANY list, thanks Grant

All this absolute trype you read on here from know nothing flaggetating flogs "our list is great on paper" blah blah blah, yada yada etc...etc... is absolute codswallop and those numbnuts who keep spweing forth their buffoon laden drivel should be walloped with a cod.

Comparing our previous list from 2004, 2005 to what we have now is like comparing Paris Hilton to Mother Theresa

FAIR DINKUM

The only and I do mean the ONLY way forward is to play the kids, develop fresh young talent and drop the gop's who's pace and skill is more suited to the peanut farm, rather than the Dome or G.

But Bolt4Eva, we have examples of the game plan working perfectly this year. So obviously it's not lack of ability to carry it out.

You're wrong. Again.

[Dis Believer]

I agree with B4E that players not adhering to the game plan is the major concern. The first question is Why? Is the game plan in direct conflict with their natural instincts (causing hestation, indecision and ultimately disposal under pressure)?

I don't agree that our list is crap however. Other than Heath Black and Aussie Jones who has gone from our list that would be rated well for their disposal skills?

The biggest problem with the list at the moment is the apparent regression in skills from a number of players (Gram is at the front of this queue, Ball, Fiora et al). There are a number of factors in combinatiopn that result in some reasonable players currently looking very second rate and I would love to know what those factors are, as I am prepard to wager heavily that no-one on here really knows what is going on behind the scenes at the club.

[rodgerfox]

I agree with B4E that players not adhering to the game plan is the major concern. The first question is Why? Is the game plan in direct conflict with their natural instincts (causing hestation, indecision and ultimately disposal under pressure)?

I don't agree that our list is crap however. Other than Heath Black and Aussie Jones who has gone from our list that would be rated well for their disposal skills?

The biggest problem with the list at the moment is the apparent regression in skills from a number of players (Gram is at the front of this queue, Ball, Fiora et al). There are a number of factors in combinatiopn that result in some reasonable players currently looking very second rate and I would love to know what those factors are, as I am prepard to wager heavily that no-one on here really knows what is going on behind the scenes at the club.

Correct.

We have a top 4 list in terms football talent.

But that doesn't win games. Playing as a group to a plan does. But why can't we do this?


Time.

It takes time.

[barks4eva]

But Bolt4Eva, we have examples of the game plan working perfectly this year. So obviously it's not lack of ability to carry it out.

You're wrong. Again.

R U serious dodgyflog

Even teams that do not have the cattle can put together a great quarter and then turn to shyte because they cannot sustain it?

Carlton's first quarter against us, injury riddled Essendon in the third quarter against us.

It happens virtually every week, where a bottom side without the necessary cattle to be a top 4 side, play an inspired quarter where they take it up to the opposition

Even in the saintsational footy game against melbourne, they rocked up with young guns everywhere, while we looked like a rabble missing our better players.
It was obvious we would get absolutely pantsed, but in the first quarter we played with intensity and spirit and were trailing on the scorboard 6 goals to 4 and seemed to be right in it, knowing full well we were not.
After that we got pumped and after having kicked 4 goals in the first quarter we scored only 2 more goals for the rest of the game and lost by over 80 points.

Sides who lack the necessary cattle and certain player types can carry out a game plan, but only fleetingly, they cannot sustain it.

This is simply why we cannot sustain it, because we lack the cattle and certain player types which are now neccessary for the modern game.
Poor recruiting has consigned us to becoming mid table, ordinary, the new Richmond, when apparently it was all about building a decade of success

The only escape from this is to play kids, develop fresh young talent and bring them on quickly to help support the more elite players on our list who simply cannot carry the overabundance we currently have running around in our 22 of slow, unskilled, ineffective gop's.

Now back in your foxhole dodgy

[Saints43]

Even in the saintsational footy game against melbourne...

Oh dear.

[Buckets]

Barks can you for once make up your mind regarding this team! Not long ago this list was very good capable of great things but they had a dud coach in charge. Fast forward 2 years later with the new coaching panel and it is now the players who are crap and it is still all of GT's fault.
God your sounding like a Tiger supporter trying desperately to stick up for Wallace and his continual blaming of Spud for all the problems that they have today.
I disagree with you totally we have a good to very good list problem is for one reason or another the current coaching panel has been successful in extracting the best out of the list. I for one will not accept the view of 'oh well lets go back to the bottom pick up some young talent and rebuild'...hello has anyone noticed that if we decided to do this we would be waiting for at 6 years the draft will be pillaged by the incoming teams and anyone in rebuild phase will take even longer.
Hell i have enough of taking honourable losses semi good seasons a flag is the ultimate success but to get even close you need to make the finals rebuilding means you are not even close to finals. I for one don't want to watch footy in september if the Saints are not involved. I was not lucky enough to be around in the 60's and early 70's i was however unlucky enough to witness the 97 GF and for me the seasons between 04-06 were some of the best i have seen there is no way i want to lose that.
We have the list and we probably have the coach he has not lost me yet...But this team and this coach need to change things around and quickly there is no use listening to post match conferences and media interviews with players and Ross because they will spin...that is what they are taught to do!
Do you really think that Roo would come out on T.V and lay the blame at the feet of the coach. Gee i could see the Newspapers the next day they would have a field day and once again we would be the laughing stock of the AFL!

[JeffDunne]

Ross Lyon thinks we have a top 4 list.

Or was he lying when he said that?

(keeping up with the moronic theme of the thread)

[Saints Premiers 2008]

so why was barks let back in...only a few weeks ago he was banned from here for good...

thanks mods...

[saintsRrising]

We have the list and we probably have the coach he has not lost me yet...But this team and this coach need to change things around and quickly :

Agree

there is no use listening to post match conferences and media interviews with players and Ross because they will spin...that is what they are taught to do!

Do you really think that Roo would come out on T.V and lay the blame at the feet of the coach. Gee i could see the Newspapers the next day they would have a field day and once again we would be the laughing stock of the AFL!

While I agree that everyone spins...

Spin is about exagerating...or putting a positive light on things.

Spin is not complete fabrication by 180 degrees....as that could only ever end up shooting yourself in the foot.

I cannot imagine that both Roo and Ross came out and "spun" this week that the Saints gameplan was really an attacking one.....if in actuality it is really a dour defensive one.

For what purpose?? It would only bring them undone as attacking play would never eventuate.

[Buckets]

Ross Lyon thinks we have a top 4 list.

Or was he lying when he said that?

(keeping up with the moronic theme of the thread)

Well thats the point of the thread isn't it? Do we believe what we are told without a shadow of a doubt or do we take everything we a grain of salt ala Sammy Hamill 2 weeks!

[Buckets]

We have the list and we probably have the coach he has not lost me yet...But this team and this coach need to change things around and quickly :

Agree

there is no use listening to post match conferences and media interviews with players and Ross because they will spin...that is what they are taught to do!

Do you really think that Roo would come out on T.V and lay the blame at the feet of the coach. Gee i could see the Newspapers the next day they would have a field day and once again we would be the laughing stock of the AFL!

While I agree that everyone spins...

Spin is about exagerating...or putting a positive light on things.

Spin is not complete fabrication by 180 degrees....as that could only ever end up shooting yourself in the foot.

I cannot imagine that both Roo and Ross came out and "spun" this week that the Saints gameplan was really an attacking one.....if in actuality it is really a dour defensive one.
For what purpose?? It would only bring them undone as attacking play would never eventuate.

I think the passages in the late stages of the quarters in Saturdays game said alot for what the players were doing and their mindset. There was a total unwillingness to man up instead were happy to continue to man space. It is not that i don't believe everything they say it is just that i take it with a grain of salt because clubs dont' want to hurt their image.

[barks4eva]

I agree with B4E that players not adhering to the game plan is the major concern. The first question is Why? Is the game plan in direct conflict with their natural instincts (causing hestation, indecision and ultimately disposal under pressure)?

I don't agree that our list is crap however.

Our list is crap at the minute.

We have our apparent (according to the rose coloured crew) superstars Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard

Hayes is just the gun any top 4 side needs, should be our captain imo, my favourite player
Riewoldt probably our one true elite player, but he now has to carry the whole forwardline by himself double teamed for the most part, back in 2004, 2005 Gehrig was 100 times the player he is now and Riewoldt had Gehrig and Hamill monstoring opposition defenders, now we leave it up to Riewoldt and Kossie to do the monstoring

Oh yeah Kossie, could be anything, but we've being saying could be for a very long time now

Goddard, an anomaly with Dal, a St.Kilda player that actually hits a target, unfortunatley he and Dal are the odd one's out

Ball not half the player he was 4 years ago, absolutely has a crack, tough, gives his all, but missies targets regularly and struggles to kick over 30 metres

Dal the magician, we see his dissapearing act regularly, but in fairness to him, we do not have enough players helping him out, in fact, I'm not sure if anyone actually bothers to help him out, but that's a trait in our team, they don't seem to play that tight as a unit, but this is the inevitably result of having too many passengers to begin with, with way too much left to way too few

middle tier players such as X. Clarke, Montagna, Gram, should I include Milne who are all inconsistent

players such as Maguire who many on here seem to rate as though he's an AA CHB, is one dimensional, slow and lacks the polish to be a dominant CHB imho, coming back from injury, true, but will he ver get back to his 2004 and 2005 form?

the older players Harvey 36yo and we're still relaint on him Hudghton 30yo, his best is behind him

Gehrig, a total waste of space, should have stayed retired, now a liability, be better to bite the bullet promote Eddy and delist Gehrig

we need to stop living in the past

We play Baker and L.Fisher in the same 22, only room for one


seriously Richmond are better placed to be challenging for a premiership before St.Kilda if we do not do something NOW and that is drop the players who are never going to take this bus anywhere, Blake, Fiora, Birss, Dempster, C.Gardiner, Jones, etc...etc...

play Armitage, McEvoy, Geary, Eddy, Allen, Ferguson,

seriously Ferguson could be twice the player L.Fisher is, if given a far dinkum go

just play them and do it now, the bus is currently on a road to nowhere and running out of petrol fast thanks to the patron saint of running out of petrol, who ran the previous football department like a chook raffle and was wholly responsible for sending the list into decline in the first place

[JeffDunne]

Ross Lyon thinks we have a top 4 list.

Or was he lying when he said that?

(keeping up with the moronic theme of the thread)

Well thats the point of the thread isn't it? Do we believe what we are told without a shadow of a doubt or do we take everything we a grain of salt ala Sammy Hamill 2 weeks!

Depends on who and what you are trying to defend.

I don't know where the belief in Lyon's gameplan comes from if we haven't seen it, but I guess like most belief systems not backed up by reality you'll hang your hat on anything for justification.

Lyon and Roo can speak until they're blue in the face but the reality is we aren't an attacking team. The design of the gameplan might be to attack but that's not the result. Either the plan or the teaching of it is flawed.

In fairness we did start the year with what I'd describe as an attacking forward setup. However Lyon did what his players have been taught to do when you're stuggling - go defensive.

If the plan isn't working you change it. By Ross' own admission he's already done that once. I'd suggest if the design is be attacking and it's not, he better change it again.

I thought our president's comments on Ross were interesting too.

Ross has been put on notice.

[Mr X from the West]

I agree with B4E that players not adhering to the game plan is the major concern. The first question is Why? Is the game plan in direct conflict with their natural instincts (causing hestation, indecision and ultimately disposal under pressure)?

I don't agree that our list is crap however.

Our list is crap at the minute.

We have our apparent (according to the rose coloured crew) superstars Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard

Hayes is just the gun any top 4 side needs, should be our captain imo, my favourite player
Riewoldt probably our one true elite player, but he now has to carry the whole forwardline by himself double teamed for the most part, back in 2004, 2005 Gehrig was 100 times the player he is now and Riewoldt had Gehrig and Hamill monstoring opposition defenders, now we leave it up to Riewoldt and Kossie to do the monstoring

Oh yeah Kossie, could be anything, but we've being saying could be for a very long time now

Goddard, an anomaly with Dal, a St.Kilda player that actually hits a target, unfortunatley he and Dal are the odd one's out

Ball not half the player he was 4 years ago, absolutely has a crack, tough, gives his all, but missies targets regularly and struggles to kick over 30 metres

Dal the magician, we see his dissapearing act regularly, but in fairness to him, we do not have enough players helping him out, in fact, I'm not sure if anyone actually bothers to help him out, but that's a trait in our team, they don't seem to play that tight as a unit, but this is the inevitably result of having too many passengers to begin with, with way too much left to way too few

middle tier players such as X. Clarke, Montagna, Gram, should I include Milne who are all inconsistent

players such as Maguire who many on here seem to rate as though he's an AA CHB, is one dimensional, slow and lacks the polish to be a dominant CHB imho, coming back from injury, true, but will he ver get back to his 2004 and 2005 form?

the older players Harvey 36yo and we're still relaint on him Hudghton 30yo, his best is behind him

Gehrig, a total waste of space, should have stayed retired, now a liability, be better to bite the bullet promote Eddy and delist Gehrig

we need to stop living in the past

We play Baker and L.Fisher in the same 22, only room for one


seriously Richmond are better placed to be challenging for a premiership before St.Kilda if we do not do something NOW and that is drop the players who are never going to take this bus anywhere, Blake, Fiora, Birss, Dempster, C.Gardiner, Jones, etc...etc...

play Armitage, McEvoy, Geary, Eddy, Allen, Ferguson,

seriously Ferguson could be twice the player L.Fisher is, if given a far dinkum go

just play them and do it now, the bus is currently on a road to nowhere and running out of petrol fast thanks to the patron saint of running out of petrol, who ran the previous football department like a chook raffle and was wholly responsible for sending the list into decline in the first place

Hard to disagree with any of this on the evidence we have seen in the last year and a a bit.

[barks4eva]

the current coaching panel has been successful in extracting the best out of the list.

yeah that's my point

the list is crap, actually we have a nucleus, but way too many weak links in the chain

we need to play the kids and bring them on fast

I for one will not accept the view of 'oh well lets go back to the bottom pick up some young talent and rebuild'...hello has anyone noticed that if we decided to do this we would be waiting for at 6 years the draft will be pillaged by the incoming teams and anyone in rebuild phase will take even longer.

Where did I ever say that?

Play the kids we have now, NOW

Afterall I'm only suggesting we drop players such as Blake, L.Fisher and Birss, it's not as if the dam wall's going to break if Blake is not in the team surely.

I'm suggesting we play the kids not because I'm running up the white flag, but because I sincerely belive that this is the quickest way forward to actually get results in the here and now.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

barks when we do bring in the kids theoretically you will then criticize the recruiting staff for not picking a certain kid over another as ultimately a few will be flops..

so regardless of what eventuates you are going to criticize whatever happens anyway...