What are we?

[fingers]

part of the reason I come to this site is to read what my fellow Saints supporters have to say. I don't often post. But sometimes I just feel the need to rant. This is one of those times so please indulge me.

41 years I have followed the Saints and nothing will change that. And I have always been optimistic. But there are times when you just have to admit where you are. At the moment we are a middle of the road team. Almost every other team has something or someone they can draw on to create a victory. We don't

We don't have a strong group of exciting young kids coming through - except maybe Armitage. So we are not rebuilding.

We don't have a dominant 26 - 30yo list - so we are not challenging for a top 4 spot and subsequently a flag.

When I compare us to other teams I see lots of things we don't have.

Adelaide: We don't have the confident hard running of Crows. We don't have an Andrew McLeod.

Brisbane: We don't have a young developing side that is willing to play exciting football. We don't have a 4 time premiership coach.

Carlton: I hate saying this but we don't have the future 3 or 5 players that will be the champions of tomorrow. And I last lot haven't lived up to it.

Collingwood: We don't have the arrogance.

Essendon: We don't have the special Indigenous players that will add some spark and do the amazing things that lift teams and fans.

Geelong: The list is too long. But the stand out thing is we don't have a list that plays for each other and the jumper 100% of the time...apart from #35 and #8 and maybe #12

Hawthorn: We don't have the run and confidence. We definitely don't have a game breaker like Buddy.

North: We don't have anything near the shinboner spirit...and that really sh!ts me.

Melbourne: I don't want anything they have!! LOL

I hope you get my drift.....But when I look at our team I don't know what we stand for. In 2004 we used to be known for the contested ball and our tackling. We were fierce.

I just don't know what we are. We are not rebuilding, we are not challenging for the flag. ...so what the hell are we??

This is what sh1ts me....we don't stand for anything. And we don't have that 1 thing that makes us special, exciting. Even if we're not winning.

That's about it. Thanks for listening....feel free to flame or add or PLEASE prove me wrong.

Fingers

[desertsaint]

We still have the best jumper (and since the expansion teams we no longer have the worst song)
We have 101 wooden spoons (soon)
We can keep score with just our fingers
We have a coaching turnover of around 3 years (hopefully less this time)
But.. we have one more year of Harvs -the only true legend still playing footy!

[fingers]

Oh great...much happier no LOL

[Saintschampions08]

Geelong: The list is too long. But the stand out thing is we don't have a list that plays for each other and the jumper 100% of the time...apart from #35 and #8 and maybe #12

I think thats very harsh.

#7 is probably the only guy on our list who can be compared to #8 and #35 in that sense.

[saint patrick]

Good post Fingers...was thinking of posting similar sentiments but you have saved me the trouble.After watching us last night and most games on the weekend I have to agree with your observations.

we just seem to playing with-out any obvious game plan and worse than that we lack passion and our skills are pathetic!!!

The next 2 weeks are critical against the inform Richmond and Collingwood....

Lose both and we are stuffed...

2 wins would have us back on track...

The fork in the road arrives every season and this is it in round 7

Time to take some risks and back our ability...

In the words of Kennedy "DO SOMETHING !!!!!!"

[aussierules0k]

[aussierules0k]

[Little Dozer]

It's time the club folded or relocated. 3/3 is a disgrace. We are going nowhere.... ahhhhhh and the sky is falling in.

It aint like the old days, 12 teams, fair draw, reserves. The spread of talent is too small and about to get smaller. It doesn't matter how many teams are in the league, there will only ever be about 3/4 powerhouses at the same time.

Unfortunately right now Port are one of those, we were always going to be run over at their home with only 1 win after 5 games.

It's all about confidence, playing for the coach, team mates and team pride (see ports win), not self pride. Sometimes raw talent isn't so important (see roos for ever).

A ruckman would help.

ROFL.. Port a powerhouse!

We are Port's bitch, and basically when we play interstate against anyone this is the case. The club is a laughing stock and that pathetic effort last night is totally and utterly unacceptable!

[fingers]

It's all about confidence, playing for the coach, team mates and team pride (see ports win), not self pride. Sometimes raw talent isn't so important (see roos for ever).

Exactly my point. I wouldn't mind if we weren't the best team in the league if I saw that we had 22 guys who would bleed for the jumper. Have a fair dinkum crack every week....the roos can do it. And we have twice the talent. Imagine.

[To the top]

Where are we at?

We have access to 2 ruckmen who have given encouraging glimpses that they will contribute significantly to the team, its aggression and its structure. But they are both injured at present.

We have Hayes, Montagna and Harvey performing in the mid-field, with Harvey the stand out because our forwards are confident when he has the ball. But he can not play more than 70% of game time.

Sam Fisher and Max Hudgden are under pressure because of lack of support from further afield resulting in S. Fisher not being able to play the game which is most valuable to St Kilda. Floating from the flank - the go too player when under pressure, who can back pedal to find space, deliver, and run. 191cm on a flank = ideal.

S. Fisher is not helped by Maguire's injury concerns, and that Maguire is in rehabilitation where incremental improvements in performance are looked for. Work on the track will dictate his immediate future. If improvements are there he will be retained - and improvements on the track must be obvious because he is in the team.

Gram is the running defender, and is trying to do too much, looking for that opportunity to really slice through and finding himself under pressure in disposing. Still gets the ball though. S. Fisher on the other flank will improve Gram.

Gilbert is developing nicely, but now injured. He is being developed to use his growing 194cm frame as a key defender in the modern game.

X. Clarke is trying to play a physical game, to which he is not suited. He has been attempting this for the last 3/4 years but what we need is him on his feet, not at the bottom of a pack. He is a carrier, and a skilled one who also has a (curtailed) leaping ability.

Goddard is returning from a knee reconstruction, and progressing. Needs to step up from a "spare" defender role and actually contribute in the guts.

Ball is an enigma. You can not afford to have him out of the centre because of his competiveness but he is just not damaging enough - probably should play forward where he has the skills to succeed.

Armitage's game against Essendon was promising, and needs to be encouraged. Remember, this is probably Harvey's last year.

Dal Santo is tagged week in and week out because it curtails his output, which is vital to St Kilda. Time to develop a strategy for when he is tagged, because he attracts the prime tagger, taggers who are dangerous in their own right. Turn the tables time?

Riewoldt and Koschitzke are being asked to perform too much, with Riewoldt double teamed and Koschitzke being asked to ruck then go forward. They are our 2 main goal kickers. They need support badly.

Milne and Gehrig are being found out because they have nothing more to give, and are in decline. Their games are well known to us and to every one else, hence they are negated and particularly when the pressure is really on.

Baker is too short and too slow for today's game. He can not now keep up, and he is not suited to any position other than tagging - he gets cut up far too easily in defence, as was Aussie Jones ahead of his retirement when he was being taken to the square and exposed. Can no longer afford Baker.

L. Fisher is a dead set backman, not a tagger. Despite having a couple of scalps this season. He is being done no favours at present. The problem he has looming is the number of disruption forwards in other teams, those very fleet of foot because they can generate as well as disrupt. L. Fisher needs to lose some bulk and add some toe, quickly.

R. Clarke is a work in progress, with the coaching staff educating a very skilled player to a defensive bent - not that he will play in defence when he re-appears probably this week.

Schnieder looked competative, but lacking in fitness. He was totally stuffed against WB and the break will do him no favours. Looks confused by the team plan also and not taking the first option because he is looking elsewhere.

Dempster is like Attard and Blake. Have trouble finding the ball and therefore are not generators. They do not have the extra gear. C. Gardiner ditto although he does work hard and presents on the lead. But he does not kick goals and therefore does not take the pressure off Riewoldt and Koschitzke. Needs to kick goals every week to maintain a place in the team because he only plays forward. This was his major problem at Geelong, where he could not find a place in the team.

Birss does find it but could not get a regular game for WB, and they have moved on so he would not get a game there now. Probably indicative of where St Kilda is at!

Then we have Howard, Steven, Allen and McEvoy who hopefully have promise.

So where are we at?

Too many wasted years thinking our list was good enough and it was only injuries holding us back whilst the rest of the competition was passing us by.

Can not undo that, so we need to know that Howard, Steven, Allen and McEvoy can play as a first step back.

Because we have enough average players and do not want any more.

In terms of mongrel, well we lost Black and got Fiora.

Hurry back M. Gardiner and King!

[kalsaint]

Geelong: The list is too long. But the stand out thing is we don't have a list that plays for each other and the jumper 100% of the time...apart from #35 and #8 and maybe #12

I think thats very harsh.

#7 is probably the only guy on our list who can be compared to #8 and #35 in that sense.

I was going to add #7 and #14.
Lenny and Luke personify effort. Luke may not kick long but his and Lennys' efforts around packs are examplary but unfortunately not bearing fruit.

[Rix4eva]

I just don't know what we are. We are not rebuilding, we are not challenging for the flag. ...so what the hell are we??

We are the new Richmond

8th, 9th etc...etc...


You are right, our list is ordinary, middle of the road, players past reputations count for nothing, it's 2008, not 2004, the game has changed, other clubs have rebuilt, developed, improved dramatically, we have gone backwards which started in 2006 and have plateud into a middle of the ladder combination.

WHY?

Poor recruiting, poor list development, even Thomas has acknowledged that he was poor and negelected this area, after the fact, and subsequently we have stagnated.

If you do not continue to blood new talent, you leave too much to be done by too few and as good as Hayes, Riewoldt and a couple of others are when they feel like it, they can not carry a team overloaded with gop's who are slow, unskilled and basically dumb footballers.

Actually I'd go so far as to say our list currently is shyte.

The absolute, knob jockey, know nothing, numbnutted, nuffies on this site who claim that our list is great etc...etc.. yada yada are living in a time warp, there 's no escaping that fact that we are slow, pretty much unskilled right across the board, Dal Santo has sublime skilss, when he's not busy doing a dissapearing act and Goddard's kicking is top draw, but other than that the skill level of our players is sub ordinary at best.

We are treading water and that bus is going nowhere fast.

Reality check, our players are not as good as many on here and quite possibly they themselves,think they are.

Stuff up recruiting for five years and that will destroy the fabric of any list.

The ONLY way forward is to play kids, develop fresh talent and change the structure, because any team overloaded with the vast amount of passengers and slow, unskilled gop's that we have in abundance is not going to deliver.

Play the kids, drop the cabbages or we will become, if we're not already the New Richmond.

Our supporters have already stepped up to rival the tuggers, if our coach doesn't bite the bullet and play the kids, like Brisbane for example, then our players will seal the deal.

At the moment we are on track for our third midtable finish, which started under Thomas's coaching.

If you don't have the cattle then it doesn't matter who you have coaching and thanks to the previous football department, we pure and simply do not have the cattle.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just as deluded as any carltoon supporter.

FAIR DINKUM

[Little Dozer]

You know you are in trouble when blokes like Blake, Birss and Rix are getting a game. They offer absolutely nothing and deliver exactly that. How Blake has played so many games is astonishing, he makes the same stupid mistakes week in week out yet stays in the side. Nothing will change until players of this ilk are gone.

[fingers]

Geelong: The list is too long. But the stand out thing is we don't have a list that plays for each other and the jumper 100% of the time...apart from #35 and #8 and maybe #12

I think thats very harsh.

#7 is probably the only guy on our list who can be compared to #8 and #35 in that sense.

I was going to add #7 and #14.
Lenny and Luke personify effort. Luke may not kick long but his and Lennys' efforts around packs are examplary but unfortunately not bearing fruit.

Yep my mistake . Left off #7 and #14

[To the top]

Why stop at Blake, Birss and Rix, Bull dozer?

This is the problem.

We are still in the Lockett mode, where he was feted because he kicked goals every week, no matter that we were continually losing.

The hero worshop cult over those who kick a goal.

And Lockett's performance covered over all of the cracks.

So, until we add the likes of Milne and Baker to join Gehrig we will not progress.

Yep, M. Gardiner and King give us a good rucking division and we have a couple of kids on the list who may assume their positions in the near term.

We have Hayes, Montagna and Harvey as mid-fielders who are consistently good.

We have Hudgden, S. Fisher and Gram down back - plus Gilbert.

We have the Clarke's - and we have Ball, Goddard and Dal Santo who do not have an impact week in and week out, like Harvey, Hayes and Montagna.

In the forward line we have Riewoldt and Koschitzke.

Armitage is a great white hope.

So do not limit it to 3 players - lift the gaze and ask why we are stagnating and falling behind.

Ego's abound around sporting clubs - and some should be pricked.

[duckduckduckgoose]

good post fingers, I too feel we are in limbo and have been left behind by the rest of the premiership contenders...

I will disagree with other posters who say that it is a lack of effort by the bulk of our players, which has caused us to go backwards.

Can I pose a question to you all- do you think guys like Dal, Ball, Fiora, Birss, Blake, Rix or anyone on our list would be better players at another club?
I don't think so. They are getting the best out of themselves. Unfortunately their best aint making the grade.

Could you really see any of our players doing a Rodan and becoming a star elsewhere?

What worries me about what I have seen in 2008, is both the manner in which we have lost games, AND the manner in which we have won games.

We don't look like we can beat ANY side for 4 quarters.
I really hope I look silly and get proved very wrong come September.

[evertonfc]

You know you are in trouble when blokes like Blake, Birss and Rix are getting a game. They offer absolutely nothing and deliver exactly that. How Blake has played so many games is astonishing, he makes the same stupid mistakes week in week out yet stays in the side. Nothing will change until players of this ilk are gone.

Spot on.

Blake is one of the worst players I've seen get a regular game for St Kilda; he is too slow to be a midfielder, too short to be a ruckman. He is durable, but that is not what it takes to be an AFL player who contributes. He will not play in a premiership winning side.

Throw in Clinton Jones as well.

Realistically, I can't believe the amount of unskilled players we have on our list. It is absolutely astonishing - but they're not just on the list, they actually get game time!

You can probably carry one, but not four or five.

It guts me, but I'm close to adding Raph Clarke to that list. I had such high hopes for him, but I am concered he won't ever *get* it - to play in the AFL you must act, think and do things by instinct and in the blink of an eye.

I wish these blokes would put pressure on our best players, but they don't, and it's hardly surprising our top lot don't feel compelled to lift their game when they know their spot isn't under threat by an up-and-comer.

[joffaboy]

To the Top you are spot on.

Too many St.Kilda fans with stars in their eyes. Go for the easy excuse, the gameplan is crap, Rix and Balke are no good, but if you mention Dal santo being ineffective, or Grams skills at kicking going backward, or Sam Fisher not running out of the backline anymore, or Montanga as slow as a wet week, or X Clarke playing occasionally etc, you are howled down.

Onr one worth feeding at the moment is Roo and Lenny, mabye Max. Kosi is slow and underperforming, Goose is VFL standard at this stage, Dempster, well it is becoming obvious why Dempster was flicked by Sydney, Charlie Gardiner, same for him with Geelong.

We are slow, undiscipilined, poor skills, no aggression, and yes have a defensive gameplan.

Seems to me that we dont have another go until about 2010. What we need to do is look forward to then and offer GC Roo for picks 1 3 and 5 and start again.

2004-06 is gone. Time to look forward.

Does that mean a different coach? Mabye. Does it mean that untouchables like Roo and even Dal Santo get traded? Possibly.

Time to face facts. This team is slow and its players overrated. No more excuses with injuries, we have hardly had any this year. We just are past it.

And it doesn't matter how many hysterics think the quick fix of getting a new coach will do. It seems the cattle is not what we believed.

[joffaboy]

It guts me, but I'm close to adding Raph Clarke to that list. I had such high hopes for him, but I am concered he won't ever *get* it - to play in the AFL you must act, think and do things by instinct and in the blink of an eye.

As much as I hate to say it, but I think you may be right efc. Been a great defender of Raph, and will be terribly dissapointed if he never reaches his full potential.

However the AFl is littered with "kids with potential". Have to turn potential into reality, and the reality is that Raph seems to be a dumb footballer *winces* (god i hate to say that).

[BallBanger]

To the Top you are spot on.

Too many St.Kilda fans with stars in their eyes. Go for the easy excuse, the gameplan is crap, Rix and Balke are no good, but if you mention Dal santo being ineffective, or Grams skills at kicking going backward, or Sam Fisher not running out of the backline anymore, or Montanga as slow as a wet week, or X Clarke playing occasionally etc, you are howled down.

Onr one worth feeding at the moment is Roo and Lenny, mabye Max. Kosi is slow and underperforming, Goose is VFL standard at this stage, Dempster, well it is becoming obvious why Dempster was flicked by Sydney, Charlie Gardiner, same for him with Geelong.

We are slow, undiscipilined, poor skills, no aggression, and yes have a defensive gameplan.

Seems to me that we dont have another go until about 2010. What we need to do is look forward to then and offer GC Roo for picks 1 3 and 5 and start again.

2004-06 is gone. Time to look forward.

Does that mean a different coach? Mabye. Does it mean that untouchables like Roo and even Dal Santo get traded? Possibly.

Time to face facts. This team is slow and its players overrated. No more excuses with injuries, we have hardly had any this year. We just are past it.

And it doesn't matter how many hysterics think the quick fix of getting a new coach will do. It seems the cattle is not what we believed.

Couldnt see it commin' could you JB...how you abused me for my questioning the recruiting over the last few years....

I know when you admit that our list is average that it is obvious to all..fw

Where did we go wrong jb?

[BallBanger]

To the Top you are spot on.

Too many St.Kilda fans with stars in their eyes. Go for the easy excuse, the gameplan is crap, Rix and Balke are no good, but if you mention Dal santo being ineffective, or Grams skills at kicking going backward, or Sam Fisher not running out of the backline anymore, or Montanga as slow as a wet week, or X Clarke playing occasionally etc, you are howled down.

Onr one worth feeding at the moment is Roo and Lenny, mabye Max. Kosi is slow and underperforming, Goose is VFL standard at this stage, Dempster, well it is becoming obvious why Dempster was flicked by Sydney, Charlie Gardiner, same for him with Geelong.

We are slow, undiscipilined, poor skills, no aggression, and yes have a defensive gameplan.

Seems to me that we dont have another go until about 2010. What we need to do is look forward to then and offer GC Roo for picks 1 3 and 5 and start again.

2004-06 is gone. Time to look forward.

Does that mean a different coach? Mabye. Does it mean that untouchables like Roo and even Dal Santo get traded? Possibly.

Time to face facts. This team is slow and its players overrated. No more excuses with injuries, we have hardly had any this year. We just are past it.

And it doesn't matter how many hysterics think the quick fix of getting a new coach will do. It seems the cattle is not what we believed.

Couldnt see it comin' could you JB...how you abused me for my questioning the recruiting over the last few years....

I know when you admit that our list is average that it is obvious to all..fw

Where did we go wrong jb?

[bergsone]

good post hardto see rix blake etc taking us deep into finals , dept really not there

[Buckets]

Right at this stage we are a group of individuals playing for ourselves.
We are not at any level playing as a TEAM.
Yes there are some within the group who know how and what is required to play as a team however they are unfortunately outnumbered at the present and until things are addressed this will not change!

[joffaboy]

Couldnt see it comin' could you JB...how you abused me for my questioning the recruiting over the last few years....

I know when you admit that our list is average that it is obvious to all..fw

Where did we go wrong jb?

It wasn't that I didn't see it coming. I just wanted to see how we would go with no injuries. Well this year we have hardly had any and we are playing poorly.

I have said that we are slow or one paced since the beginning of last year.

Sorry that I dont just pot 18 y.o.s on draft day ballbanger. I leave that to the real experts and hero's.

Are you one of those?