It's not Lyon's fault!!

[St.Kenny]

Too much obsession with individuals by individuals with too much free time is allowing a few "Stan Statistician" types on this site to exercise their egos.

READ MY TEXT: ST.Kilda performed better because they were welded together AS A TEAM. With a better playing list now and and more mature and hardened players St.Kilda is performing worse because they are not playing AS A TEAM

Get off the individauls playing thing .....its team work that matters.

We had a coach who got them playing as a team but we have too many morons our club who got nervous and sacked him. Dimitriou and PAtrick Smith etc thought all their XMAs' came at once. The natural order of things is beginning to return. Rest assured......

[NeXuss]

bloody hell

crying over GT is pointless.

we had GT, I thought he was great, others thought he was the best, some thought he was satan incarnate and everything in between.

he's gone

he's subsequently made an ass of himself in my opinion with legal action and comments in teh press, and frankly I am not sure I'd want him back at the club.

move on FFS.

No....I will not stop until GT is our coach again.

[meher baba]

Bit harsh?? LOL...but then I am not the one painting him to be a super-developer of players.

Who is saying he was a super-developer of players? As far as I can tell people have only responded saying that comments such as these are inaccurate/unfair. There's a difference between saying that he did develop youngsters and that he was brilliant at it.

GT was given a great bag of players to do something with.....and then could not add value to it..

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolutely spot on. I only gave my assessment of GT's record in developing players in response to this sort of rubbish.

GT's ability to develop a group of talented but raw recruits into a winning combination was his greatest strength. He took us from the bottom to close to the top in less than 3 full seasons: the likes of Bomber Thompson, Clarkson and others have not managed such an improvement so quickly.

Perhaps there is something in the argument that GT didn't have what it takes to get us to a flag: although I'll be blowed if I can see that RL hasn't actually taken us further away rather than closer. But to deny GT's achievement in using the talent at his disposal to take us from the bottom to near the top is just to stick your head in the sand and be an ostrich.

I've noted that, every time the team is going badly and Ross Lyon's coaching is called into question, the anti-GT frenzy fires up again on this forum. He will always be the ultimate scapegoat for those who have gone too far out on a limb in celebrating the advent of "Rossy".

[NeXuss]

Too much obsession with individuals by individuals with too much free time is allowing a few "Stan Statistician" types on this site to exercise their egos.

READ MY TEXT: ST.Kilda performed better because they were welded together AS A TEAM. With a better playing list now and and more mature and hardened players St.Kilda is performing worse because they are not playing AS A TEAM

Get off the individauls playing thing .....its team work that matters.

We had a coach who got them playing as a team but we have too many morons our club who got nervous and sacked him. Dimitriou and PAtrick Smith etc thought all their XMAs' came at once. The natural order of things is beginning to return. Rest assured......

Agreed.
I said at the time of the sacking that BUTTHEAD had destroyed any chance of this group of players ever winning the flag. Everyone went beserk at me and I was banned ever since. The chickens have now come home to roost but the person responsible for our decline is no longer at the club.

[congorozides]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

yep, they have all developed in Thomas' time at St.Kilda. And their respective ages are :
Milne : 29
Roo : 25
Kosi : 25
Ball : 24
Dal : 24
Joey :25
Leigh Fish : 24
Sam Fish : 26
X : 24
Goose : 24
BJ : 23
Gilbert : 21
Gram: 24

With the exception of Gilbert not one player under 23, and only one under 24.. Where are the rest of the 20 -23y.o's that are developing into top flight players?????
Brooks, Watts, McQualter, Gwilt, Cathal Corr, McDonnell, Pfitzner, Raymond, Sweeney??? Every one of these apart from Brooks (25) in the
20 - 23 y.o age bracket. And not one of any long-term value to the club
(Gwilt and McQualter still on the list but not exactly pushing for senior honours).
A yawning gap in this age group. Poor list management and poor management of the relationship with Casey by Thomas.

im with st byron here 100%

[Saintlyone]

It is quite natural in my opinion to raise the question about why are we struggling to make the finals after 3 years of making them. Those who advocated and achieved the sacking of the coach are the ones who are obligated to give us an explantion. All quite simple and logical really.

[SENsei]

All of this arguing is a total waste of time. Does it really matter who developed who? The fact is that while GT was coach, once our team got off the bottom, they played long, direct and exciting football. Irrespective of the result, when St.kilda played, their aim was to kick more goals than their opposition, apart from a couple of games which we are all aware of.

Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.

I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.

Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.

That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.

Since everyone has ignored my reply, I will post it as a new thread!!!!

Well there you have it.

[saintsRrising]

It is quite natural in my opinion to raise the question about why are we struggling to make the finals after 3 years of making them. Those who advocated and achieved the sacking of the coach are the ones who are obligated to give us an explantion. All quite simple and logical really.

It is not just who is the Coach.

* fact is GT did not want to share the load and refused to let the club hire other staff such as Drain who is now at the club


*under GT we could not work with casey.. fat hope of developing players under that scenario

*GT did not want to put time into developing rookkies as he preferred to concenttae on his senior list (this was in an interview)

*GT did not develop players.

*GT traded for dud after dud. No one gets all their picks right...but GT got most of his wrong.
*List was in decline with huge gaps...no rucks, not enough mids, poor footskills etc..


The rot had set in...GT had sqnadered what was given him and the list was going backwards fast....



Irrespective of the role of coach the powerbase that GT had set himself in had to be broken.


Whether Ross was the right choice or not to act as head coach or not is aseperate question.

However GT the control freak had to go....and the role of coach was quite correctly focussed back to just being that...head coach..

[rodgerfox]

However there would seem to be not many posts about all the under-achievers, problem childs, rough diamonds, rookies etc that GT turned around.

HAHAHAHahahahaaHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Good one.

Matthews had his Pike..


Which St Kilda player can say....there but for the grace of GT go I????

Your GT obsession is astounding.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

*My personal rating of GT was that he was an average match day coach...not good..not bad

*He was a lousy development coach.

*As the Overall Football Manager that he aspired to be = POOR.....long term contracts with injured players biting us on the bum, the Saints playing short of maximum list numbers as our salary cap was maxed out.........trading and drafting of players poor.......managing of conditioning of players= lurching from crisis to crisis

*As part of working as a team member himself (ie the coaching mangement team, realtionship with Board etc) his record at the Saints was dismal with a constant stream of assistant coaches and bad blood. Ditto for his time at the Kangas too. Not sure his stint at The Age went too flash either.

That we still see posts dedicated to Thomas 30 games after he last sat in the box for us says volumes about his replacement and how enamoured we are of the new regime... including those who still need to spend time reminding people why firing Thomas was a decision welcomed by many.

All of the above, whether one agrees with it or not is an aside to what's really important. Threads like this are so long because instead of battling for top 4 and top 2 as we did under Thomas, we watch the Saints look like a team that will struggle to make finals, while the team on paper has only changed around the edges - excepting and not belittling Aaron Hamill. Black was gone after '04, Jones was effectively gone after '04, our defense stood up without Penny, and Robert Harvey was no longer counted on to be the #1 midfielder. With all that transition, we finished top 4 in '05 and just missed in '06. The loss of Frankie Peckett may have been bigger than expected, but I really don't think that was the change that led to such a poor showing last year, and if there is a need for serious turnover to get back to where we were 2 years ago, I doubt history will judge it that way either.

Frankly, even if Thomas had the worst record in the AFL at the draft table over his tenure (and he didn't by a long shot), when you're up and challenging, you don't make a change for recruiting's sake. The recruiter's should be worried about 5 years from now, and while having good turnover is important, it is not the reason we didn't win under Thomas. Injury management has been a major problem, but while Thomas may have had a hand or at least failed to solve the problem, I doubt the opening question in the coaching interview was "how are you going to handle injuries".

I suppose the reason this keeps coming back to Thomas is because in their heart of hearts, even the strongest of the Thomas critics must realise that in all the criticism that continues to be spoken of the ex-coach, they never mention winning. Recruiting, team player, injuries, match day... but never winning.

If Lyon could get us looking convincing in our wins, and winning enough to have the faithful believing top 4 was where this team belonged, we could all forget about Thomas - I think most of us desperately want to. If he can't, if the window closes while Lyon's in charge, history will say a mistake was made when Rod Butterss fired Grant Thomas.

[st.byron]

Gilbert has really blossomed under Lyon

Has he??

Fair call Roger to say that he hasn't returned to his '07 form this year. Last year he was excellent under Lyon and am please to see him being persisted with. Has shown enough to warrant time to develop at the top level.

[st.byron]

bloody hell

crying over GT is pointless.

we had GT, I thought he was great, others thought he was the best, some thought he was satan incarnate and everything in between.

he's gone

he's subsequently made an ass of himself in my opinion with legal action and comments in teh press, and frankly I am not sure I'd want him back at the club.

move on FFS.

No....I will not stop until GT is our coach again.

Someone call an ambulance ... Nexus has split his head open from bashing it against a rock. Wont cause any mental damage but the blood is messy.

[rodgerfox]

Ok, so let's get this straight one and for all.....


Thomas was an average to poor match day coach.

Had no 'Plan B'.

He inherited a brilliant list, but ruined it within 1 year.

He was a terrible recruiter who didn't get anyone decent to the club.

When he did get someone decent, he missed someone better.

The good guys that we did actually get, were thanks to someone else.

He didn't develop anyone.

He couldn't work with 'troubled players'.

He crippled us with injuries.

He didn't get on with anyone at the club - including his assistants.

The players hated him.


So based on this, I'm guessing we what? Finished bottom 2? Bottom 4?

[happy feet]

Unfotunately we had a coach that was being groomed for the role. He never lived to make it.

Who am I talking about - Trevor Barker.

What a terrible shame. He would have made a great coach.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

shut up nexus

[cowboy18]

So based on this, I'm guessing we what? Finished bottom 2? Bottom 4?

Bottom 14 every year from memory.




He's gone, move on.

[saintsRrising]

What this string indicates to me is that it is a bit like attending a Modern Art Gallery.



There area crowd of adoring fans admoring the GT Masterpiece on the wall.


Whereas there are others like me wondering why people are looking so hard at the FIRE EXIT sign.


Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

[Dan Warna]

…….â€

[Saints43]

There are a crowd of adoring fans admoring the GT Masterpiece on the wall.

I don't think there is one post in the many pages of this thread that says anything GT did was masterful, that he was a super-developer, etc.

Many posts acknowledge a myriad of flaws attributed to his management at the club.

He is only being brought up in these conversations as he is the frame of reference for the performance of most of the players on the St Kilda list.

When people refer back to GT it is not necessarily due to a fondness of the past but concern for the present.

[rodgerfox]

There area crowd of adoring fans admoring the GT Masterpiece on the wall.

Crowd??

Nexuss seems to be the only person on here that comes close to 'adoring' GT.

Not hating him, doesn't mean you adore him.

[NeXuss]

All of this arguing is a total waste of time. Does it really matter who developed who? The fact is that while GT was coach, once our team got off the bottom, they played long, direct and exciting football. Irrespective of the result, when St.kilda played, their aim was to kick more goals than their opposition, apart from a couple of games which we are all aware of.

Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.

I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.

Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.

That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.

Since everyone has ignored my reply, I will post it as a new thread!!!!

Well there you have it.

Att : SENsaintsational

I dare you to tell me which parts of my little essay you disagree with!!! Go on, let me see some constructive criticism...you have the stage...go for it.

[jezza]

Tatically he is poor.Roo should be playing closer to goal,we play to defensive with huge numbers back.When we break we have not got the leg spped to get the ball through the lines.

When is the last time we started the game and gone that is a surprise move this week.We are to easily read by the oppo.

Yes Football is a simple game

[bigcarl]

Tatically he is poor. Roo should be playing closer to goal

agree. if we're going to go to him every time he should be accountable for putting a score on the board.

[meher baba]

*My personal rating of GT was that he was an average match day coach...not good..not bad

*He was a lousy development coach.

*As the Overall Football Manager that he aspired to be = POOR.....long term contracts with injured players biting us on the bum, the Saints playing short of maximum list numbers as our salary cap was maxed out.........trading and drafting of players poor.......managing of conditioning of players= lurching from crisis to crisis

*As part of working as a team member himself (ie the coaching mangement team, realtionship with Board etc) his record at the Saints was dismal with a constant stream of assistant coaches and bad blood. Ditto for his time at the Kangas too. Not sure his stint at The Age went too flash either.

That we still see posts dedicated to Thomas 30 games after he last sat in the box for us says volumes about his replacement and how enamoured we are of the new regime... including those who still need to spend time reminding people why firing Thomas was a decision welcomed by many.

All of the above, whether one agrees with it or not is an aside to what's really important. Threads like this are so long because instead of battling for top 4 and top 2 as we did under Thomas, we watch the Saints look like a team that will struggle to make finals, while the team on paper has only changed around the edges - excepting and not belittling Aaron Hamill. Black was gone after '04, Jones was effectively gone after '04, our defense stood up without Penny, and Robert Harvey was no longer counted on to be the #1 midfielder. With all that transition, we finished top 4 in '05 and just missed in '06. The loss of Frankie Peckett may have been bigger than expected, but I really don't think that was the change that led to such a poor showing last year, and if there is a need for serious turnover to get back to where we were 2 years ago, I doubt history will judge it that way either.

Frankly, even if Thomas had the worst record in the AFL at the draft table over his tenure (and he didn't by a long shot), when you're up and challenging, you don't make a change for recruiting's sake. The recruiter's should be worried about 5 years from now, and while having good turnover is important, it is not the reason we didn't win under Thomas. Injury management has been a major problem, but while Thomas may have had a hand or at least failed to solve the problem, I doubt the opening question in the coaching interview was "how are you going to handle injuries".

I suppose the reason this keeps coming back to Thomas is because in their heart of hearts, even the strongest of the Thomas critics must realise that in all the criticism that continues to be spoken of the ex-coach, they never mention winning. Recruiting, team player, injuries, match day... but never winning.

If Lyon could get us looking convincing in our wins, and winning enough to have the faithful believing top 4 was where this team belonged, we could all forget about Thomas - I think most of us desperately want to. If he can't, if the window closes while Lyon's in charge, history will say a mistake was made when Rod Butterss fired Grant Thomas.

First rate post. At least, unlike most posters, you get that I and rodgerfox and some others (not Nexassssss) are not particularly pro-GT, but were simply never convinced that his sacking was likely to take us forwards rather than backwards. And now it seems that we have been going backwards since September 2006: most of the football world certainly thinks so.

And, as Michael Voss pointed out so brilliantly, the main problem is not one of game plans or not playing modern football or speed or poor recruiting or egomania all the other nonsensical criticism that is thrown at easily one of the most successful coaches in the history of our club (check the records).

The main problem we currently face is one of teamwork and leadership. Maybe we don't have the cattle to win the flag - I'm not sure - but we surely have the cattle to play much better than we did in the past four games. And where does responsibility ultimately rest for our failure to gel as a team..............?

[st.byron]

.......

If he can't, if the window closes while Lyon's in charge, history will say a mistake was made when Rod Butterss fired Grant Thomas.

Not necessarily. Not a mistake to fire Thomas. We were on the slide already. Remains to be seen whether or not the right choice was made in Lyon.