It's not Lyon's fault!!

[St.Kenny]

97 Grand Final....not almost made a GF but actually did.

GT inherited the core of that team....

So too did Tim Watson and MAlcolm Blight. do you need to be reminded where we finished up then Mr ? Shouldnt be so defensive !!!!!

[lefty]

I agree with Nexus, there are plenty of supporters here who still bag a person that apparently cannot coach yet make finals three years in a row, yet others praise Ross Lyon before he has even proved anything?

To be honest, so far after one year with Ross, I dont think we will make the finals this year, definately not by the way we are playing now, unless Ross changes or tweaks the style of play. There are too many things I can think of that need to be addressed yet week in week out, the same problem's occur.

Still, we have to give Ross a fair go, so Im on board for now and will support the team, but I dont rate us anywhere like 04,05 or 06. We have a better team than those years too which is the disappointing part with barely no injuries and it may be Harv's last year

[saintsRrising]

97 Grand Final....not almost made a GF but actually did.

GT inherited the core of that team....

So too did Tim Watson and MAlcolm Blight. do you need to be reminded where we finished up then Mr ? Shouldnt be so defensive !!!!!

No I don't need to be reminded.....If you actually read ALL my post you would see that I said:

Now Gt was a far superior coach to Watson....and to the disinterested golf playing Blight.

Talk about selective quoting

[rodgerfox]

My jury is still out on Ross and his coaching style. Has only just broken even as yet.

Broken even??

Gee, what's a failure in your book then SENS?

[rodgerfox]

GT may have been an idiot, a money hungry grub or worse, but he took us further than any coach had in a long time, so his influence surely was not all bad.

Long time????

97 Grand Final....not almost made a GF but actually did.

GT inherited the core of that team....

Banger, Jones, Everitt, Max, Thommo, Pecket, Loewe, Burkey, Hall

That is almost half a team who rate as good to great players.

Let's be fair SrS, Alves had Harves in duel Brownlow form, not 5 years older and after a knee reco.

Alves also had Loewe, Burke, Thommo and Frankie at their peaks, not their twilights.

I understand your point, although I don't entirely agree, but let's not fudge the facts.

[SENsei]

My jury is still out on Ross and his coaching style. Has only just broken even as yet.

Broken even??

Gee, what's a failure in your book then SENS?

I grant people time to grow into their job and build the team the way they want it.

Until he's had a chance to do that, then I cannot judge him on results alone.

However, he is slipping at the moment from a break even point if the season continues like the last two weeks.

I didn't buy the RB sales pitch when he was appointed that "Ross will take us to the next step." I knew we were on the slide.

Ask me this question again at Round 15....the answer will be apparent either way by then.

[markp]

My jury is still out on Ross and his coaching style. Has only just broken even as yet.

Broken even??

Gee, what's a failure in your book then SENS?

I grant people time to grow into their job and build the team the way they want it.

Until he's had a chance to do that, then I cannot judge him on results alone.

However, he is slipping at the moment from a break even point if the season continues like the last two weeks.

I didn't buy the RB sales pitch when he was appointed that "Ross will take us to the next step." I knew we were on the slide.

Ask me this question again at Round 15....the answer will be apparent either way by then.

Spot on... mid year before we can truly asses, end of year before we could consider any drastic action.

Making and being competitive in the finals is a must.

[saintsRrising]

Let's be fair SrS, Alves had Harves in duel Brownlow form, not 5 years older and after a knee reco.

Alves also had Loewe, Burke, Thommo and Frankie at their peaks, not their twilights.

I understand your point, although I don't entirely agree, but let's not fudge the facts.

talk of fudging facts..

Banger's 2003 was one of his best years....and I would argue that he used the ball better in that year than his Brownlow years...though Banger won ample votes in 2003 as well...

Hall..twilight years?????... The Swans built a forward line around him and many commentators had him in their Top % players in the competition.

My point is and remains that Thomas actually inherited a list with a lot of talent.


Where is your consitancy....where are your posts saying tht RL inherited a list with many players in their twilight years..?????

Lets face it RL was given on arrival a list chock full of older players and players with chronic injuries.

[rodgerfox]

Let's be fair SrS, Alves had Harves in duel Brownlow form, not 5 years older and after a knee reco.

Alves also had Loewe, Burke, Thommo and Frankie at their peaks, not their twilights.

I understand your point, although I don't entirely agree, but let's not fudge the facts.

talk of fudging facts..

Banger's 2003 was one of his best years....and I would argue that he used the ball better in that year than his Brownlow years...though Banger won ample votes i 2003 as well...

No it wasn't. Nowhere near it. He had a good year, but wasn't a shadow of the freak he was in 97/98.[/quote]

Hall..twilight years?????... The Swans built a forward line around him and many commentators had in their Top % players in the competition.

I never mentioned Hall.

My point is and remains that Thomas actually inherited a list with a lot of talent.

I know your point. I'm just asking that you don't fudge figures and stretch the truth to express it.

[Saints43]

GT inherited the core of that team....

Banger, Jones, Everitt, Max, Thommo, Pecket, Loewe, Burkey, Hall

That is almost half a team who rate as good to great players.

Thanks to cirumstances add:
GTrain, Hamill, Penny, Voss, Lawrence, Powell,

Roo, Kosi, X,


GT was given more to work with than Alves....

To say GT had Hall & Loewe & Burke is the same as saying Alves had Lockett.
True but a skewing of the situation.
GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.

[saintsRrising]

I never mentioned Hall.


I know your point. I'm just asking that you don't fudge figures and stretch the truth to express it.

That is why you are fudging the facts...you only want to list players "past' their best"....and ignore those he inherited ready to peak. Max for example got better.



I will repeat.

GT gained a list with a solid core of experienced players
He gained some new stars at their peak (GTrain, Hamil, Etc...)
He gained another solid core of average to good experienced players
He gained a more than healthy group of promising and talent kids...

This is no fudging...it is fact.


The post I was replying to was stating basically that the saints had not been succesful for years before GT...when in fact they had played of for a flag....or are we also now denying that 97 occurred???

[saintsRrising]

To say GT had Hall & Loewe & Burke is the same as saying Alves had Lockett.True but a skewing of the situation.
.

Well that would be true IF I had said it..which I did not.

The players that I actually mentioned were:

Banger, Jones, Everitt, Max, Thommo, Pecket, Loewe, Burkey, Hall

Banger still capable of playing very good football
Jones...still capable of playing exceptional football
Everitt...still capable of playing football at the level of one of the AFL's best ruckman
Max...improved as footballer
Thommo...improved
Frankie..still played good football
Loewe..past his best

Burkey..past his best
Hall...emerged as one of the most diominant players in the game.

[rodgerfox]

I never mentioned Hall.


I know your point. I'm just asking that you don't fudge figures and stretch the truth to express it.

That is why you are fudging the facts...you only want to list players "past' their best"....and ignore those he inherited ready to peak. Max for example got better.


I will repeat.

GT gained a list with a solid core of experienced players
He gained some new stars at their peak (GTrain, Hamil, Etc...)
He gained another solid core of average to good experienced players
He gained a more than healthy group of promising and talent kids...

This is no fudging...it is fact.


the post I was replying to was stating basically that the saints had not been succesful for years before GT...when in fact they had played of fora flag.

I understand your point. And as I said, although I don't agree, you are entitled to it.

All I'm saying is don't stretch the truth in order to express it.

You really need to get over GT.

You don't need to keep justifying your criticisms of him.

[Saints43]

Well that would be true IF I had said it..which I did not.

I said it was like that. Similar. Using an example, you see.

What you did say was bollocks.

[st.byron]

GT may have been an idiot, a money hungry grub or worse, but he took us further than any coach had in a long time, so his influence surely was not all bad.

Long time????

97 Grand Final....not almost made a GF but actually did.

GT inherited the core of that team....

Banger, Jones, Everitt, Max, Thommo, Pecket, Loewe, Burkey, Hall

That is almost half a team who rate as good to great players.

Thanks to cirumstances add:
GTrain, Hamill, Penny, Voss, Lawrence, Powell,

Roo, Kosi, X,


GT was given more to work with than Alves....

GT was given a great bag of players to do something with.....and then could not add value to it..

His trading "successes" were Knoble, Sugar, Guerra, McGough, Watts, Brooks...and thank god for Gram...so he got one right.


A coach needs to add value to the list.

GT was in the right spot at the right time for his mate RB to give him control of a huge amount of talent.

Now Gt wasa far superior coach to Watson....and to the disinterested golf playing Blight.

But a builder and developer of talent and and of a team he was not.

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

[Saints43]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

I would have thought that many players made their debut from 2002 to 2006. And more if you included players who had played less than 20 AFL games at previous clubs.

Exactly how did he do sfa to develop young talent?

[saintsRrising]

Well that would be true IF I had said it..which I did not.

I said it was like that. Similar. Using an example, you see.

What you did say was bollocks.

Thanks for the bake...

However if you are going to roast me can you please point out where in fact you said like..as you state?

To say GT had Hall & Loewe & Burke is the same as saying Alves had Lockett.
True but a skewing of the situation.
GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.

[Hard at it]

GT was gift wrapped a core group of quality senior players due to the arrival of Malcolm Blight. He was also given some of the best young talent in the land due to our sides low ladder finishes. Anyone that ever suggests that GT built the list or was given a list that wasn't laden with talent is kidding themselves.
The problem started once Grant saw a glimmer of hope at winning a flag, and he stopped carrying on with his original suggestion of not trading away draft picks.
He drafted too many hacks from other clubs, where he should have continued with his mantra of the early years of bringing young kids in and developing them ourselves. Barry Brooks (extremely expensive) Ackland, McGough, Rix and Watts were just some of his inspiring choices.
I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

[rodgerfox]

I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.

And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.

If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.

[meher baba]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

[Hard at it]

I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.

And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.

If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.

I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.
Some are easily pleased it seems

[meher baba]

I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.

And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.

If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.

I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.
Some are easily pleased it seems

At the risk of catching B4E's obsession with onanistic behaviour, I'm starting to wonder why you might choose to call yourself "Hard at it".......

[Hard at it]

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

Of that group Riewoldt and BJ both #1, Kosi and Ball both #2 they would be "first team regulars" as you put it, even if you coached them.
GT was going to get rid of Milne, he never played Gilbert.
Yeah good argument

[meher baba]

he never played Gilbert.

Check your facts

[Boppa]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

What a classic, GT developed them. Hard task looking at some of the names on that list. One thing is for sure he didn't develop Dal's defensive side or improve Gram's kicking. He was going to sack Milne ffs and lets be honest Joey's development into a very good footballer has coincided with RL coming to the club