Worth $600,000?

[Iceman234]

so if he had have missed one of his early shots, and got the one in the last, you would rate him a better player or better kick for goal....?

how bout his 3 last quarter goals in the rain against the Bombers a year or two back to win us the game by under a kick?

how about him throwing himself in to contestes repeatedly ALL game against 2 or 3 opponets, or can captains only show their worth on the scoreboard....?

I highly rate Roo and all he does - but that needed to be kicked - pretty simple fact is he didn't kick it.

Love his workrate, so don't try to call me out on that.

Captains and leaders show their worth also when it's there to be taken by the scruff of the neck and win the freaking match, or give their team mates the impetus and momentum to go on with it.

Terrific he scored two or three last quarter goals a couple of years ago - FFS you get side-tracked easily. Point was the kick the other night.

Roo wasn't alone, but he should have kicked that. Or do you disagree? Do you think a miss by him then showed - what exactly? He's human? Yes he is - but for a guy on his money and the captaincy, it was there to be kicked.

Next?

[st.byron]

"Your all tools, all of you" is a direct insult and you probably got a yellow card. So you should.

Fair enough. It was 2am.

*shrug*

10 % penalty remission for after midnight. Another 10% for following a bad loss.

[St DAC]

The difference between Fev and Roo ala goal kicking is simple. Fev wants the ball in his hand at that time; Roo doesn't seem to; it appears to be a burdon to Roo, a boon to Fev.

Roo used to be a wonderfull, penetrating kick; 50 metres was a doddle, post high. See games in 2003/4 for example. Now, he's a flat trajectory, barely kick it 50, no penetration, and unreliable. When he kicks for goal we all hold our breath wondering if it will be a goal. With Fev, you expect it to be.

Having said that he's our best player, never stops trying, always has to fly against many, and I'd rather he than that tool Fev in an instant.

[Sobraz]

Arguing over percentages is a waste of time.... stats are just an excuse not to face the obvious...

Clearly Roo as an issue with his goal kicking, and he is not in the same league as Fev, Buddy, Pav and Brown... They are exceptional, and are even better from further out... especially Fev and Buddy... Roo is not even in the same ballpark outside 45m..

Roo has less shots at goal than the rest of them i would imagine, and is increasingly kicking less goals per year...

IMO he should be played closer to goal in more attacking positions, as i think a major issue with his conversion rate is his confidence.. This will improve with more shots...

But, in answering the original question, Roo is worth every cent... Yes, he should have kicked that goal yesterday, last quater, and he needs to work on it, but he is a wonderful all round player, and goal kicking isnt his only asset...

He is not a one trick pony, like Fev is.... Playing closer to goal is the answer....

[The_Dud]

yes, of course he should have kicked that goal

but, would we rather a guy who's pretty good at kicking goals from 45-55 out and miss regularly from within 35 (fev, buddy, rocca) or a guy who kicks them at about 62% accuracy anywhere within 50?

Roo shouldn't be "down graded" as a player because he is unselfish (um, Harvey), why is he a better player if he has a pot shot from 55 rather than passing to someone within 30 for a certain goal?

and something crazy happened today, Fev put 2 out on the full from inside 50...

i admit, it looks good on the high light real guys putting them thru from 55, but just because he doesn't have shots from outside 50 doesn't mean he is a worse kick for goal

Roo is an ELITE player, but his goal kicking is average, so it looks worse compared to the rest of his game

[Spinner]

yes, of course he should have kicked that goal

but, would we rather a guy who's pretty good at kicking goals from 45-55 out and miss regularly from within 35 (fev, buddy, rocca) or a guy who kicks them at about 62% accuracy anywhere within 50?

Roo shouldn't be "down graded" as a player because he is unselfish (um, Harvey), why is he a better player if he has a pot shot from 55 rather than passing to someone within 30 for a certain goal?

and something crazy happened today, Fev put 2 out on the full from inside 50...

i admit, it looks good on the high light real guys putting them thru from 55, but just because he doesn't have shots from outside 50 doesn't mean he is a worse kick for goal

Roo is an ELITE player, but his goal kicking is average, so it looks worse compared to the rest of his game

Dud, Dont confuse Riewoldt being unselfish with him not even wanting to consider kicking at goal.

Its good to see you rate his kicking so highly, because Nick himself certainly doesn't. He looks to pass it off at EVERY opportunity. Is that the attitude you want from a bloke there to win you games by kicking goals?

Not even Nick himself has the confidence in his kicking that you do. Funny that.

[matrix]

for $600,000 he should go and spend some of his own money and get a superstar forward from yesteryear to teach him how to drop a ball onto his foot........and he should be practicing slotting them thru the big sticks EVERY day.
for crying out load the guys apparently on 600 grand.

yes he's a superstar, yes he is one, if not the superstar of the team.....but when u drop a a footy from about 2 feet high with ya hands and expect it to land flush on ya boot then somethings wrong......the guys a pro afl player for christ sake.
think about it, everytime franklin or fev get that footy in their hands and are having a set shot u would back them in 70% of the time.
everytime roo has the footy and is having a set shot.....i cringe and shut my eyes.
maybe he has to take the grab, turn around, play on and launch it from 50 on the run.........richo does that and he seems to slot em (give him a set shot and he's iffy)
seriously.....they drop the footy onto the boot in a shocking manner.....half of us could kick better than that some days.
very frustrating

[Spinner]

for $600,000 he should go and spend some of his own money and get a superstar forward from yesteryear to teach him how to drop a ball onto his foot........and he should be practicing slotting them thru the big sticks EVERY day.
for crying out load the guys apparently on 600 grand.

yes he's a superstar, yes he is one, if not the superstar of the team.....but when u drop a a footy from about 2 feet high with ya hands and expect it to land flush on ya boot then somethings wrong......the guys a pro afl player for christ sake.
think about it, everytime franklin or fev get that footy in their hands and are having a set shot u would back them in 70% of the time.
everytime roo has the footy and is having a set shot.....i cringe and shut my eyes.
maybe he has to take the grab, turn around, play on and launch it from 50 on the run.........richo does that and he seems to slot em (give him a set shot and he's iffy)
seriously.....they drop the footy onto the boot in a shocking manner.....half of us could kick better than that some days.
very frustrating

Correct.

[matrix]

i mean even if it was 300 grand.......id be doing sprints everyday to get the heart and legs racing/working and then having shots at goal.

blimey, get 3 kids to go behind the goals and retrieve the footys for ya when u practice or something.....
im living comfortably on 60 grand and this blokes is on over half a million!!.

i just dont understand it. Its got to the stage where its all mental now, and something seriously needs to be done about the kicking action. Kozi needs the same help.

[st.byron]

Riewoldt is an absolute gun there is no disputing that, but no way is he a better goalkicker than a guy like Fev. Lets not hang the guy on one shot, but kicking on the full from about 35m in the last qtr when we had the momentum is just not good enough. Those percentage stats dont really tell you anything, because that shot Riewoldt missed from 35 wont even count on the stats you gave. It also depends on how far out, or what angles you are shooting from. Fev has plenty of his shots from beyond the 50m arc so obviously its going to be pretty hard for him to have the same percentage accuracy as Rooey who either doesn't make the distance or is looking to lay it off when in the same position

Summed it up nicely H.A.I. Percentages are misleading. Bottom line is Roo's goalkicking lets him and the team down. Weakest part of his game.

[matrix]

138 games
264 goals
170 points.

ok he mainly plays around centre half forward area so kicking bagfuls isnt going to happen.....
at least he's over 50% i spose.

maybe he does need to come out and play the dominant CHF position and not even have goal shots.......rely on kozi and g to do that along with the crumbers??..
i dunno....something aint working tho.

[The_Dud]

think about it, everytime franklin or fev get that footy in their hands and are having a set shot u would back them in 70% of the time.

well you would lose whatever you were backing them with, as both of them convert at less than 58%.....

[BAM! (shhhh)]

for $600,000 he should go and spend some of his own money and get a superstar forward from yesteryear to teach him how to drop a ball onto his foot........and he should be practicing slotting them thru the big sticks EVERY day.
for crying out load the guys apparently on 600 grand.

yes he's a superstar, yes he is one, if not the superstar of the team.....but when u drop a a footy from about 2 feet high with ya hands and expect it to land flush on ya boot then somethings wrong......the guys a pro afl player for christ sake.
think about it, everytime franklin or fev get that footy in their hands and are having a set shot u would back them in 70% of the time.
everytime roo has the footy and is having a set shot.....i cringe and shut my eyes.
maybe he has to take the grab, turn around, play on and launch it from 50 on the run.........richo does that and he seems to slot em (give him a set shot and he's iffy)
seriously.....they drop the footy onto the boot in a shocking manner.....half of us could kick better than that some days.
very frustrating

Some quick facts:

Reiwoldt this year is kicking at 9/13, 9/14 if you count the out on the full, that's around 64%... a little over his career average which is around 60.

Franklin is kicking at around 66%, don't know if he's missed on the full in '08. His career average is again almost bang on 60% (roo leads by .004%)

Fev is kicking at 67% in '08. and about 59% over his career.

Pav is kicking at 60% for '08 and around 61% career.

Given that the obvious conclusion is that around 60% is what can/should be expected, the important differenciator becomes how many shots does the forward generate (there are other factors to offset this like I50s, and goal assists, but for the sake of simplicity, measuring the individual scoring impact, we'll stick to goals).

Fev takes 4.68, Franklin takes 4.02, Roo takes 3.14 and Pav takes 2.96 shots per game... which should sets the expectation per game for Fev at 2.8, Franklin for 2.4, Pav for 1.77 and Reiwoldt for 1.88

Granted, this does not include shots missed on the full.

My conclusion would be that Reiwoldts trouble kicking for goal is vastly overblown. More goals from outside 50 would be more exciting, but in the end, it isn't having a huge impact... and to get a full understanding we should probably be factoring in other statistics.

As for the greater issue, if anyone doubts that Nick Reiwoldt is worth $600k plus, they're welcome to their opinion, but I for one would be incredibly surprised if St. Kilda Football Club could find a better way to spend the money.

[Spinner]

for $600,000 he should go and spend some of his own money and get a superstar forward from yesteryear to teach him how to drop a ball onto his foot........and he should be practicing slotting them thru the big sticks EVERY day.
for crying out load the guys apparently on 600 grand.

yes he's a superstar, yes he is one, if not the superstar of the team.....but when u drop a a footy from about 2 feet high with ya hands and expect it to land flush on ya boot then somethings wrong......the guys a pro afl player for christ sake.
think about it, everytime franklin or fev get that footy in their hands and are having a set shot u would back them in 70% of the time.
everytime roo has the footy and is having a set shot.....i cringe and shut my eyes.
maybe he has to take the grab, turn around, play on and launch it from 50 on the run.........richo does that and he seems to slot em (give him a set shot and he's iffy)
seriously.....they drop the footy onto the boot in a shocking manner.....half of us could kick better than that some days.
very frustrating

Some quick facts:

Reiwoldt this year is kicking at 9/13, 9/14 if you count the out on the full, that's around 64%... a little over his career average which is around 60.

Franklin is kicking at around 66%, don't know if he's missed on the full in '08. His career average is again almost bang on 60% (roo leads by .004%)

Fev is kicking at 67% in '08. and about 59% over his career.

Pav is kicking at 60% for '08 and around 61% career.

Given that the obvious conclusion is that around 60% is what can/should be expected, the important differenciator becomes how many shots does the forward generate (there are other factors to offset this like I50s, and goal assists, but for the sake of simplicity, measuring the individual scoring impact, we'll stick to goals).

Fev takes 4.68, Franklin takes 4.02, Roo takes 3.14 and Pav takes 2.96 shots per game... which should sets the expectation per game for Fev at 2.8, Franklin for 2.4, Pav for 1.77 and Reiwoldt for 1.88

Granted, this does not include shots missed on the full.

My conclusion would be that Reiwoldts trouble kicking for goal is vastly overblown. More goals from outside 50 would be more exciting, but in the end, it isn't having a huge impact... and to get a full understanding we should probably be factoring in other statistics.

As for the greater issue, if anyone doubts that Nick Reiwoldt is worth $600k plus, they're welcome to their opinion, but I for one would be incredibly surprised if St. Kilda Football Club could find a better way to spend the money.

What is the intellectual cut off points for someone to actually understand that goal kicking percentages do NOT single out set shots at goal?

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

[Richter]

What is the intellectual cut off points for someone to actually understand that goal kicking percentages do NOT single out set shots at goal?

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

So produce some facts to back up your argument rather than subjective pronouncements. If he's so clearly a worse set shot than the others it'll be a piece of cake to find some stats to backup your arguments, no?

[Spinner]

What is the intellectual cut off points for someone to actually understand that goal kicking percentages do NOT single out set shots at goal?

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

So produce some facts to back up your argument rather than subjective pronouncements. If he's so clearly a worse set shot than the others it'll be a piece of cake to find some stats to backup your arguments, no?

How about using your eyes and watching the standard of players playing for other teams.

Thats right, players do play for other teams...There is also talent hidden behind the colours of opposition teams too. Maybe take the time to watch a Franklin, Fevola, Hall or Brown make contact with a football and im positive you'll feel embarrassed having to actually ask for 'facts' to outline to you who is a better kick.

Last time I checked they didn't separate each players goals into, set shot or general play. Maybe stop asking for things that don't exist before you making up your own mind.

Even still, you find a tape of Riewoldt kicking 9 goals against Melbourne in 2004 and compare that to EVERY kick, post that year, and tell me there isn't a difference.

[vacuous space]

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

Don't know about 2007 or this year, but in 2006 Riewoldt had 56 goals from set shots and 4 from general play.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

What is the intellectual cut off points for someone to actually understand that goal kicking percentages do NOT single out set shots at goal?

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

To suggest that Reiwoldt is overpaid/not worth the money because he's a bad set shot is or kicks to many from general play in spite of percentages is to ignore what's important: production. I don't care how they're kicked, as long as they go in, and the numbers say they're going in just fine.

Honestly, I'm not sure where to begin arguing with such an obviously flawed premise. Franklin's greatest problem in '07 was goalkicking (73.62, if he'd kicked at that 60% avg, he'd have won the coleman), Fev's a full forward, Hall wasn't in Reiwoldt's league last year, as well as being much older, and Brown is generally viewed as the best CHF in the league (won the coleman with 30 shots less than Franklin) ahead of Reiwoldt and Pav (though Franklin is ready to upset the equation). One can only suspect that anyone making such an argument hasn't spent a lot of time watching these other players (which is unfortunate, while all players are flawed, these guys are awesome to watch and worth the time).

What is the intellectual cut off point to understand that trying to create a pigeon hole argument which takes Reiwoldt out of the elite is a waste of time?

Simply put, the numbers don't lie.

[Spinner]

What is the intellectual cut off points for someone to actually understand that goal kicking percentages do NOT single out set shots at goal?

Seriously, its getting beyond stupid. People on here are actually using irrelevant stats to defend their stands. Yes, percentages paint a picture, but too many of Riewoldt's goals are cheap open goal, general play ones. Even mentioning his SET SHOT goalkicking in the same paragraph of Fevola, Franklin, Brown or Hall is moronic at best.

To suggest that Reiwoldt is overpaid/not worth the money because he's a bad set shot is or kicks to many from general play in spite of percentages is to ignore what's important: production. I don't care how they're kicked, as long as they go in, and the numbers say they're going in just fine.

Honestly, I'm not sure where to begin arguing with such an obviously flawed premise. Franklin's greatest problem in '07 was goalkicking (73.62, if he'd kicked at that 60% avg, he'd have won the coleman), Fev's a full forward, Hall wasn't in Reiwoldt's league last year, as well as being much older, and Brown is generally viewed as the best CHF in the league (won the coleman with 30 shots less than Franklin) ahead of Reiwoldt and Pav (though Franklin is ready to upset the equation). One can only suspect that anyone making such an argument hasn't spent a lot of time watching these other players (which is unfortunate, while all players are flawed, these guys are awesome to watch and worth the time).

What is the intellectual cut off point to understand that trying to create a pigeon hole argument which takes Reiwoldt out of the elite is a waste of time?

Simply put, the numbers don't lie.

But they don't.....You can make numbers suggest anything. Simply put, there were several shots on Saturday that didn't make the distance/never looked like going through. They weren't out of the ordinary bad kicks. They were Riewoldt kicks, him just being consistent. So I guess most people are happy with that.

I for one, am not.

[iwantmeseats]

Seems to be technique problem as suggested. To me, he has a very high ball drop, gotta start there me thinks.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Simply put, the numbers don't lie.

But they don't.....You can make numbers suggest anything. Simply put, there were several shots on Saturday that didn't make the distance/never looked like going through. They weren't out of the ordinary bad kicks. They were Riewoldt kicks, him just being consistent. So I guess most people are happy with that.

I for one, am not.

You can make the numbers suggest anything, but I didn't, those were very raw, very simple numbers.

They won't tell you the whole of Reiwoldt's game, just as they don't tell you the whole of the other players named... but when they're that static, they will tell you that over the course of a number of games, you can expect them to revert to a mean.

In the first game against Hawthorn last year, Franklin kicked 1.5. If we take that game in isolation, we see the worst of Franklin, taking low percentage shots and costing his team scoring - we don't see over time the advantage in having a player of his caliber getting shots. In '06 Neitz kicked 3 goals against the Saints from over 50 metres, on a day like that he was almost impossible to stop. If the Saints make a habit of giving Franklin 6 shots - even low percentage ones like the ones Neitz nailed, they're going to be in trouble.

The same goes for Reiwoldt. He'll have days where he struggles, he'll also have days where he single handedly breaks the game open. There are very few players who can single handedly turn a game of football and we've got one.

I'm happy for him to get $600 KPA+.

[The_Dud]

Spinner, i would suggest on average every player would have about the same set-shot to on-the-run-shot ratio, so i doubt the ratios will change much

i'm not saying he's a fantastic shot for goal, but he is no means a bad one, he is on par with most forwards in the game

just because Franklin and Fev can bomb a few from 55 and get on the highlight reel, doesn't mean they are a better shot for goal, as the stats show

[Spinner]

Spinner, i would suggest on average every player would have about the same set-shot to on-the-run-shot ratio, so i doubt the ratios will change much

i'm not saying he's a fantastic shot for goal, but he is no means a bad one, he is on par with most forwards in the game

just because Franklin and Fev can bomb a few from 55 and get on the highlight reel, doesn't mean they are a better shot for goal, as the stats show

To suggest that Riewoldt is a good kick in compared to other forwards in the game is ludicrous.

All it shows is that most on here fail to watch any football that isn't connected with St Kilda. Which is sad, as most on here don't know what they are missing.

The ball could be delivered side ways, reverse spin and you lot would still rates Riewoldt's kicking. Its sad. There is no other word.

[The_Dud]

i'm not saying that its pretty all the time, but if it gets the job done....

wouldn't you be more concerned for Fev and Franklin, who apparently have much better actions, but less accuracy....?

[Shaggy]

Roo is not perfect but I still think depending upon our fortunes that he may go down in history as our best ever.

I know I am privileged to watch him.

He is a freak footballer we haven’t seen since Nicky and Plugger and its thrilling to watch freak footballers do their stuff.

IMO Roo is worth much more than $600,000 but to be an absolute legend he will have to deliver a flag or two which I believe he is capable of with the list we have.