We need to play kids FAIR DINKUM

[barks4eva]

Castro, what a fantastic first up contribution, obviously I agree with every word.

Welcome aboard, please post more this forum needs intelligent people like yourself who know what they're talking about.

FWIW, I had nothing to do with the missile crisis back in 63, just wanted to let you know

[Castro]

Barks4eva, thanks so much for your feedback and for welcoming me to this forum. Now that I am a member, I shall be making a regular contribution. My passion for our club has led me here - hopefully it will be an outlet to speak with like-minded people such as yourself and exchange thoughts and ideas. My only concern is that our collective thoughts will not be channeled to the people who make the ultimate decisions at St.Kilda. Having said that, it is still a wonderful opportunity to express our views.

I'm not sure whether or not you will agree with me on this, however I see a few of our better players seemingly in "cruise-control". For example, Jason Gram and Leigh Montagna seem to have lost their explosiveness and attacking mentality. I don't mean to single these two out, as this is slightly unfair to them, however I feel that the damaging run that they have given us in the past is no longer there. This seems to stem from a lack of mental application more than anything else.

I failed to mention Fraser Gehrig in my first post. Sadly, I believe that his lack of endeavour and inability to make a valuable contribution is becoming too detrimental to our side.

To focus on some positives, I believe that Brendon Goddard has come back in tremendous fashion and will only become more polished with each match. I know that Stephen Milne is often criticised by our supporters, however I cannot fault his endeavour this year. Yes, his goal kicking has been off by his standards, however this can very easily be fixed through lengthy sessions at practice. I see our new recruits as being enormous acquisitions, with Steven King appearing to be as fit and damaging as he has in years. People tend to forget that he was widely considered to be the premier ruckman of the competition a number of years ago. I don't know about you, but I genuinely feel that Charlie Gardiner was a very solid contributor in the games he played this year, therefore I am somewhat bemused by his omission from the senior side when the likes of Blake and Fiora are selected.

I am well and truly over hearing the constant banter from all of the so-called experts talking about "potential" and what a brilliant list St.Kilda has. The fact is that none of this will matter unless this list achieves the ultimate success, that being a premiership. Our players should have a think about what sort of legacy they want to leave. They have an opportunity to win the second premiership in the history of the St.Kilda Football Club and etch their names in history. All of this talk about coaching and game plan is meaningless if the players on our list do not have a hunger, a willingness to succeed and a desire to be a part of history that no one can ever take away from them.

[Dis Believer]

From a medical point of view it is indeed fascinating to witness a conversation between Andrew 1 and Andrew 2.
The fact that it is a mutual admiration society rather than a hate based relationship, bodes well for a full recovery.

[lefty]

Sorry Barks, you are wrong.

Its not the players, its the style of play from our coach that can "coach".

Armitage and others is not going to change our 50 point defeats. Its not Gehrig that is useless, its a coach that cannot play accountable football.

How many times does Jason Gram have to just bomb the ball to a two on one? How many times does a st.kilda player actually hit up a lead to F.Gehrig? Why does Ross Lyon not tell the players to kick it to Roo when its a two on one contest? How can you expect F.Gehrig to flood back to the centre of the ground, then run back to the full forward and then make a lead? Really, lets be sensible. Ross has tried this style of play last year and we didn't make it, unless he tweaks or changes his style, we wont be there this year.

Our pre-season is cloudy, we won, but none were convincing. Winning by less than a goal isn't what you want. We struggle to kick over 100 points a game, yet this team were more than capable with the old coach. The facts vs fiction will eventually shine through. Im sick of going to watch our side play a boring style of football. The players dont seem to get excited, nor have faith or even accountability, as long as they are guarding their space, that seems to be fine.

[barks4eva]

Barks4eva, thanks so much for your feedback and for welcoming me to this forum. Now that I am a member, I shall be making a regular contribution. My passion for our club has led me here - hopefully it will be an outlet to speak with like-minded people such as yourself and exchange thoughts and ideas. My only concern is that our collective thoughts will not be channeled to the people who make the ultimate decisions at St.Kilda. Having said that, it is still a wonderful opportunity to express our views.

It's a breath of fresh air to read someone on here who has some perspicacity and perspicuity, but be warned Castro this place has more than it's fair share of numbnuts and it won't be too long before the pshco babbling buffoons will have you thinking, why did I even bother coming here, but stick around this place needs you

I'm not sure whether or not you will agree with me on this, however I see a few of our better players seemingly in "cruise-control". For example, Jason Gram and Leigh Montagna seem to have lost their explosiveness and attacking mentality. I don't mean to single these two out, as this is slightly unfair to them, however I feel that the damaging run that they have given us in the past is no longer there. This seems to stem from a lack of mental application more than anything else.

Montagna is actually one player who's progress, I'm very pleased with, I seriously think it's a matter of too much being left to too few and Joey, like Hayes need some young kids with some pace coming through, our mids are pedestrian and under the pump for this very reason.

Gram is IMHO just not a defender and is being played out of position, it's as simple as that and it has got me flabbergasted as to why both the previous and current coaches continue to play him in defence, Gram is a wingman and we will derive most benefit from playing him there.

I failed to mention Fraser Gehrig in my first post. Sadly, I believe that his lack of endeavour and inability to make a valuable contribution is becoming too detrimental to our side.

Gehrig has become a major liability and is holding back the next wave of development of the team as a whole and for a player of his size he does not impose himself on the game.

Way too soft.

To focus on some positives, I believe that Brendon Goddard has come back in tremendous fashion and will only become more polished with each match.

Brendan Goddard, a true breath of fresh air, someone in our team who can actually kick the ball and is at the same time a smart footballer.

I know that Stephen Milne is often criticised by our supporters, however I cannot fault his endeavour this year. Yes, his goal kicking has been off by his standards, however this can very easily be fixed through lengthy sessions at practice.

Agree

I see our new recruits as being enormous acquisitions, with Steven King appearing to be as fit and damaging as he has in years. People tend to forget that he was widely considered to be the premier ruckman of the competition a number of years ago.

I still think he is one of the premier ruckmen in the competition, an amazing pick up, if only we had some quick young mids with some skill to polish off all the good work.

King has been one of our best players so far.

I don't know about you, but I genuinely feel that Charlie Gardiner was a very solid contributor in the games he played this year, therefore I am somewhat bemused by his omission from the senior side when the likes of Blake and Fiora are selected.

Again, agree entirely.

I am well and truly over hearing the constant banter from all of the so-called experts talking about "potential" and what a brilliant list St.Kilda has. The fact is that none of this will matter unless this list achieves the ultimate success, that being a premiership. Our players should have a think about what sort of legacy they want to leave. They have an opportunity to win the second premiership in the history of the St.Kilda Football Club and etch their names in history. All of this talk about coaching and game plan is meaningless if the players on our list do not have a hunger, a willingness to succeed and a desire to be a part of history that no one can ever take away from them.

We currently in my opinion do not have the leg speed or skill level required to compete with the elite.

The ONLY solution is to introduce fresh new kids into the team and we could do a lot worse than dropping Blake, Fiora and a few others and start playing Armitage, Geary, Eddy, Ferguson and Stevens for starters.

[meher baba]

Hey Fidel!!

Good to see that, now you have retired from political life, you have returned to your first and only true love, sports commentating.

I have read that you were a gun baseball commentator in Mexico in the 1950s.

Well it seems like not much has changed. Your analysis of AFL is of the standard that I would expect from a gun baseball commentator from Latin America......................

[barks4eva]

Hey Fidel!!

Good to see that, now you have retired from political life, you have returned to your first and only true love, sports commentating.

I have read that you were a gun baseball commentator in Mexico in the 1950s.

Well it seems like not much has changed. Your analysis of AFL is of the standard that I would expect from a gun baseball commentator from Latin America......................

More of a clue than you'll ever have mebabble

You want to sack Lyon and replace him with.....wait for it, Bundy as early as next week.

Our current problems are more closely related to Bundy's recruiting calls than any drivel you offer up.


FAIR DINKUM and YOU have the gall to call Lyon a dinosaur

[meher baba]

You want to sack Lyon and replace him with.....wait for it, Bundy as early as next week.

Our current problems are more closely related to Bundy's recruiting calls than any drivel you offer up.


FAIR DINKUM and YOU have the gall to call Lyon a dinosaur

Be fair B4E, I actually suggested that Lyon should be given until the week after next.

But never mind about that: I was being a bit hotheaded at the time. I think he should be given until the second half of the season to see if he can turn things around.

But, if he can't, I think the board will be seriously looking at replacing him (if he doesn't resign first). He does not look to me to be a man who is enjoying his job. And, if he does resign, why not Bundy?

I would certainly hope that we wouldn't look at Longmire: we don't need Swan we rejected last time. So who else is knocking at the door demanding to be looked at? Bundy was dudded when he wasn't seriously considered as GT's replacement in 2006. I'd certainly give him a go, if he was still interested.

If you don't mind me saying, you are far too obsessed with recruitment at the expense of everything else, and far too inclined - with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight - to pour buckets on anyone and everyone who you deem to have been responsible for past poor recruiting decisions.

It used to be Bevo, then GT, now it's Bundy. Oddly enough, Butterss never seems to get a guernsey in the B4E Hall of Hate.

Yet IMO it was actually Butterss and GT who share the blame for the "5 years of poor recruiting" that you go on and on about all the time. Why? Because it was their teamwork that took us to 3 successive finals appearances which meant that we didn't get to select any of those early draft picks we saw running around in the filth vs the spews game this
afternoon.

As far as I can see, the cream of the crop in the draft in most years are available for picks 1-15 or so. After that, it's always a gamble, which is why lots of clubs go for trades with their lower draft picks. And history shows that lots of 1-15 picks haven't amounted to anything much in the long run either.

The fact is that our recruiting record in the 2000-04 period was the envy of virtually every other club in the AFL. After that, I agree, we didn't go quite so well with the picks we had available. And, guess what, things haven't changed much since the departure of GT. Not one of our 3 draft picks from 2006 has played much first team football, and - with the exception of King and perhaps Gardi and Schneider - none of the reject players we have picked up in trades look likely to set the world on fire either.

If I need to get over GT (and I probably do), you need to get over our recruiting record. You have exaggerated its impact: we have a better than reasonable list which is a long way from playing to its full potential. Until we start to do that, enough about the recruitment already. Please.

[barks4eva]

Recruiting is the lifeblood of any club or havn't you figured that out yet

You went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Lyon's game plan ever since round two 2007 and today for the first time, you finally admit correctly for a change, that's it's got nothing at all to do with the game plan

Our game plan is obviously to attack, why would you play three tall forwards to begin with?

Our problems stem from poor recruiting, not enough young, new talent developed and we are stuck with the dinosaurs from the past, slow and unskilled players who turn the ball over, can't hit targets etc...etc...

The game has changed, it's much faster than it was even two years ago as a result for the most part in NEW RULES to encourage this

What hasn't changed enough is that we are still relying on draft selections from seven years ago, with precious little in between.

If we don't blood some new kids, we will fast become the new Richmond and will for the THIRD YEAR running finish mid table.

RECRUITING is the single most important thing a club needs to get right.

[GrumpyOne]

Its a long while since I've read so much accumulated bulltish in one thread. If I took all that and spread it on my roses they'll be 30 foot tall in a week.

FFS and Fair Dinkum, what sort of supporters are you?

Were one of you that idiot that sat a few rows behind me on the Moorabbin wing on Saturday. He wasn't any sort of supporter either, heaped tons of rubbish on our players.

Its round four guys.... you know.... the one after three and before five.... the equivalent of 18% of the season.

We had no problem getting the ball.... it was our accuracy in disposing it that lost us the game.... both in play and shots on goals.

If we'd kicked as accurately as Geelong did in the first quarter, the Cats would have been blown out of the game.

Play the kids.... sack the coach.... codswallop.... In fact I've never seen a cod so walloped in all my life.

Accuracy is the key, and that can be achieved through practice.

All is not lost brothers, maintain your faith, it will come.

[barks4eva]

During the second half of 2006, we were able to play an intense, powerful brand of footy,

FACT
During the second half of 2006 we played THREE games against the teams that finished TOP 4 that year.

RESULTS

Lost to Adelaide at the dome by 63 points
Lost to West Coast at the dome by 39 points
Lost to Freo at subiaco by 68 points

I did NOT see an intense, powerful brand of footy against any top 4 team.

Fact is in these three games against that year's top four in the latter half of the year, we hardly gave a yelp.

In the games against Adelaide and Freo we were pumped from go to woe, so there was no coming back against any top four team.

I know this is not very convenient for your argument, but hey they are the FACTS!

Any good reason why you didn't respond to this reply, which countered your assertion about some imagined, intense brand of powerful footy, that you dreamt up in one of your Thomas in wonderland fairy stories?

[meher baba]

At least during the second half of 2006 we were able to score convincing wins over the Dogs and the Cats. And we completely pantsed the likes of the Tigers, Blues, Filth, etc.

While I acknowledge that we weren't much chop against the Dockers and the Crows, I thought we we gave a reasonable showing against the Eagles (who ended up winning the premiership that year, if you didn't happen to notice).

But it's not simply about results. The fact is that - regardless of where we finished according to the AFL's warped way of determining things - we were clearly the best of the Victorian clubs in 2006. Since then, we have been passed by the Cats, the Hawks, the Dogs, the Filth, the Roos and are undoubtedly going to struggle against the Bombers as well. We are going backwards at a rapid rate of knots.

Surely you must be able to see that.

[GrumpyOne]

Time to taser you guys.

Thomas is long gone.

Why the F are we still talking about him?

[barks4eva]

But it's not simply about results. The fact is that - regardless of where we finished according to the AFL's warped way of determining things - we were clearly the best of the Victorian clubs in 2006. Since then, we have been passed by the Cats, the Hawks, the Dogs, the Filth, the Roos and are undoubtedly going to struggle against the Bombers as well. We are going backwards at a rapid rate of knots.

Surely you must be able to see that.

Why are we slipping behind these clubs?

RECRUITING

Surely you must be able to see that.

[joffaboy]

But it's not simply about results. The fact is that - regardless of where we finished according to the AFL's warped way of determining things - we were clearly the best of the Victorian clubs in 2006. Since then, we have been passed by the Cats, the Hawks, the Dogs, the Filth, the Roos and are undoubtedly going to struggle against the Bombers as well. We are going backwards at a rapid rate of knots.

Surely you must be able to see that.

Why are we slipping behind these clubs?

RECRUITING

Surely you must be able to see that.

I dont know why you even bother barks.

This poster is so shortsighted and anti lyon that he will have been salivating to get on here after yesterday and attack the coach.

If you were at the game, (as I know you were, as I was, how about you mb??) you could see our game plan was to attack, you could see how many times we got it inside 50, it was our skills and our goal kicking that lest us down.

But as you point out, and as I did before the game, we are pedestrian and one paced.

THIS IS A RECRUITING ISSUE HUNG OVER FROM MB'S HERO'S DAY

The current coach is paying the price for having an incompetent at the helm that cocked up the his ast three years of recruiting that left us with a distinct lack of pace.

It will take seasons to properly repair. Lyon has started with Howard, and Jones, and a couple of others who have a bit of pace, but it wont be fixed overnight.

However people who watch football games on TV and never get to the game will never understand the true problems. Doesn't stop them from wanting the coach sacked by mid season for that Thomas acolyte Rendell.

FFS it is the height of idiocy to think that by sacking the coach the team will become faster, or their kicking under pressure suddenly will get better, or their kicking at goal will improve.

It is simplistic agenda driven nonsense, but it is what this medium thrives on.

Barks, your call on playing the kids is premature. Armo should come in for Harvs, and Gardiner back in. You know my thoughts on Ferguson, and Eddy is underdone and not ready for seniors.

My biggest worry is that all the excuses of injuries over the past three years are finished.

WE ARE JUST NOT UP TO IT WITH THIS CURRENT LIST. It is up to Lyon to fix this and he has started well. We have two ruckmen, a fair backman, and a good crummer, we have recruited a good big man in McEvoy, and players like Steven and Armo.

However, it will take another season or two to get the pace we need to compete against the Geelongs and Bulldogs run.

[Shaggy]

However, it will take another season or two to get the pace we need to compete against the Geelongs and Bulldogs run.

You are joking right?

Cats drive comes from their 1996-1998 drafts.

The doggies have focused all their drafting on speed for god knows how many years.

And you want Saints to follow them??

FFS Focus on your own strengths and make the competition come to the Saints. Don't try and be a sheep because it doesn't work.

[kalsaint]

Unfortunately G's second goal was after the final siren, when we were down by 48 and the game was done and dusted an hour earlier. Prior to that that he was beaten mercilessly by Scarlett.

Umpires didn't lose us this game, we did. G should have kicked 5, 6 7 etc etc. - he didn't....

G gets flogged against quality, as much as I have loved him over the years, he only stands up against poor defences.

He should fly a much tougher flag than he does for us. If it's just for one year, start taking over some physicality role that's been missing for so long at the Saints.

I also saw Scarlett blistering through the midfield at one stage, very early on (not when the game was over - maybe early 3rd) and G was about 50 metres away on our half forward flank jogging.

Yeah he takes a quality back, but that quality back slaughtered him today and set up far too much of Geelong's play.

If Scarlett is found up in his forward 50m it suggests that the chase was lost and the forward pressure was generally not enough byt the whole team. Neither Fraser or Kosi would keep up.

The sad thing is that the ball generally rebounds too easily from half forward so we cant make value from Fraser "jogging" around at half forward (loose). If we could, Scarlett wouldn't be running forward as he would need to be more accountable.

[joffaboy]

FFS Focus on your own strengths and make the competition come to the Saints. Don't try and be a sheep because it doesn't work.

Thats right, everything is fine.

We are a very quick team and everything is rosey.

I'll give you a couple of names. Woljinski (sic) how old is he? Gamble? What about Selwood?

What about Akermanis? Cooney, Hill, Harbrow (sic) drafted in 1996 were they?

Fair Dinkum, if you are going to debunk what i say, dont come up with BS.

[Shaggy]

FFS Focus on your own strengths and make the competition come to the Saints. Don't try and be a sheep because it doesn't work.

Thats right, everything is fine.

We are a very quick team and everything is rosey.

I'll give you a couple of names. Woljinski (sic) how old is he? Gamble? What about Selwood?

What about Akermanis? Cooney, Hill, Harbrow (sic) drafted in 1996 were they?

Fair Dinkum, if you are going to debunk what i say, dont come up with BS.

I said we were very athletic ... not quick. IMO quick, run and athletic are all very different concepts (but from SS you would think it is all the same )

Many people also think accountants are all the same whether they are audit, forensic or tax . So is that true JB?

Akermanis, Cooney, Hill, Harbro, Woljinski, Gamble, Selwood ... are they super fast or good long distance runners or are they all the same regardless? You have put the names together. Actually some are more speedsters and others more long distance and others particularly Selwood more athlete.

We need to play to own athletic advantage as any successful party does with own skill set. Copying doesn't work to win first prize.

[meher baba]

Message to JB and B4E and others who accuse me of being a GT-lover. I am not. GT is clearly an egomaniac who has alienated a lot of Saints people and AFL people in general by his post-2006 antics. He was never my hero and I wouldn't have him back in a fit.

That said, I still believe that the 2006 decision to sack a coach who had taken us to the verge of major success (perhaps the greatest in the history of our club) and his clearly talented assistant and replace him with a virtual unknown with three highly inexperienced assistants (none of whom had any background at the club) still ranks as one of the stupidest decisions made by any club in the history of the AFL.

I consider this opinion to be correct and am going to continue to hold it. Interestingly enough, I find that is held by almost every AFL supporter of any club I meet in real life: so much so, that I usually find myself in the strange position of defending the club and Lyon against ridicule. Doesn't that happen to you guys as well??


I have been hoping for 26 AFL games now that Lyon would start to show some signs of being a decent coach, and it hasn't happened yet and we seem to be going further and further backwards.

It is clear that you actually agree with me that we are going backwards: haven't noticed anyone posting in the last couple weeks anything along the lines of "Lyon is taking us in the right direction, just give him more time".

Instead, you all want to whinge on and on about poor recruiiting, slow players, ya-de-ya-de-yah. Talk about crying over spilt milk: and then you have the hide to criticise me for failing to move on, not getting over the past, etc., etc.

I haven't chosen to comment on the "pace" issue yet. And, no, JB, I wasn't at the game on Saturday: I don't happen to live in Melbourne, so I don't get to too many games.

But, watching it on TV, I noticed that our players missed a ridiculous number of easy shots on goal and also turned the ball over far more often than we should have. We were also caught out of position far more often than we should have been. None of these problems arose from lack of pace and, until we rectify them, I can't see that we can be sure that pace is our problem.

Gram, Dal, Harves, Hayes, X, Joey, Riewoldt, Kosi, Fiora, Max, Chips, Gehrig, Milne, Schneider all seem to me to be players with ample pace for the types of game they play. I can't remember too many occasions when I have seen any of these guys beaten purely for pace.

Perhaps we are just not using them to their best effect. That's my view and I'm entitled to it, as you are entitled to yours.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

That said, I still believe that the 2006 decision to sack a coach who had taken us to the verge of major success (perhaps the greatest in the history of our club) and his clearly talented assistant and replace him with a virtual unknown with three highly inexperienced assistants (none of whom had any background at the club) still ranks as one of the stupidest decisions made by any club in the history of the AFL.

I consider this opinion to be correct and am going to continue to hold it. Interestingly enough, I find that is held by almost every AFL supporter of any club I meet in real life: so much so, that I usually find myself in the strange position of defending the club and Lyon against ridicule. Doesn't that happen to you guys as well??

It's certainly happened to me on a regular basis. I don't necessarily rate the opinion of those I defend to though, given that prior to the move, I had roughly the same number of conversations with roughly the same kind of people who thought the the club could never win a premiership with Thomas in charge. In less than 2 years out of a coaching job he's gone from dunce to Choco Williams in the eyes of those who would bag the Saints.

Here in the midst of St. Kilda supporters, I wonder if maybe this experience is common - the consensus to believe the coaching is okay, focus forward and march in step is uncharacteristic of issues on this forum, and certainly not reflective of conversations I have outside of this place.

Perhaps posters here are a bit gunshy having been traumatised by the vehemence of the anti-GT agenda, which continues in the guise of excusing Lyon through previous poor recruiting.

I wouldn't take back Thomas either, but I would have thought that his replacement has made it clear that his good coaching record '03-'06 was not just being in the right place at the right time, so that anyone who didn't rate Thomas would have grave reservations about Lyon.

[plumtire]

We are soft as and THATS it (FAIR DINKUM!) the reason for the poor results soft as mentally and soft as physically no "presence" (no Hamill to guard Nick R) No guerra or powell to do the hard work for the Dal santos
If your going to look for reasons look no further than the attitude!!!

[spert]

Softness is one thing which keeos coming up in coversation about the team. From looking close-up at the players on Sat., it looked to me like many of the Cat players from tall to smalls were physically stronger and quicker than our blokes...that's a worry.

[matrix]

we are soft.
we are slow.
bring the kids in and we'll get belted.
does our fantastic coach have more than one gameplan?
does he know what a counter attack is?
why are players that cant kick 30 metres straight still playing, whether they are stars or not?

granted not too many sides have gone all year undefeated and then won a flag, so loses are loses and part of the season, but come-on, if we keep playing this brand of footy we dont have a chance of winning on the last day in september.

if we dont win a flag in the next few years.....we WILL lose STAR players.
they will go elsewhere seeking glory.
imagine we keep finishing in the same spot, playing the same way for the next few seasons........u think players are going to hang around when big $$ contracts are being offered elsewhere.
they'd wanna pull their fingers out of their asses, get up from sitting on their elbow and play some decent footy.....

[plumtire]

The games up! we are rumbled! the "soft centre" is exposed for all to see!
Dal Santo did all his good work when players like Steve Powell, Brett Voss, Heath Black and Luke Ball went in where it hurts to win the ball. No one says that D Santo is not a good player but "silky skills" are nothing in a side without the hard edge of a bit of mongrel, at present we have NO ONE who intimidates an opponent. Reiwoldt is a shadow of the player he was when his "minder" Hamill was around.
Its looking very similar to 1998-2001 again; from the verge of glory and then to ignominy. I'll still be barracking for them but I find it hard when we see so many softies waiting around for the glory to arrive.