Lyon - Long Term? Or 'the next step'?

[rodgerfox]

I spoke to Grant Thomas at a function in the week after the Swans broke our 'streak' back in 2004.

He spoke of teamwork, and constantly practising your game plan until it becomes 'muscle memory' as he put it.

When Lenny gets the ball and looks up, he knows Gehrig will be there. When Gehrig sees Lenny get the ball, he knows exactly where Lenny will turn etc. etc.

At that stage of our team's development, we were building for the future - although many got sucked in by the 10 wins as to where we were really at. We were still learning our plan. We were still learning each other. It takes time.

I spoke to him again the following week, when the Bulldogs rolled us. Saints fans were freaking out at being 10-2, Aussie being played on the wing instead of HB, Lenny starting on the bench etc.

The explanation was that what if Aussie retires? X needs to become a line breaking running back. We need more than one, we need to develop others to fill Aussie's role.

What if Lenny does his knee and can't play finals? Dal and Bally need to be able to play with the heavy tag. They need to be exposed to the heat of the middle.

It was all about teamwork, and not relying on individuals. It was about developing players in various to protect us from injuries, it was about learning our game plan so we played as a team, and we all knew exactly what each other was doing.

When we were under pressure, it wasn't a time to panic and pluck this mythical 'Plan B' out that so many seem to think exists. It was the perfect time to stick to our guns and test our plan under duress. We'd need to know it and trust it in September. We'd need to know that X could fill Aussie's shoes if he did a hammy before the finals. We'd need to now that Dal can play in the guts if Lenny is missing.

Good coaches don't resort to 'Plan B' to pinch games. They drill their team until they can play 'Plan A' at 100% effort for 4 quarters.

'Plan B' is for coaches who coach for their resume (their personal win/loss ratio) not for the long term benefit of the club.

When Essendon were getting done in the middle, Sheedy put Hird there. When they were struggling down back, he put Hird there. When they coldn't score - yep, Hird.

Essendon pinched wins by doing this, but it mean that their young guys never developed. Sheedy started doing this when he himself was under pressure and his job was under threat. Essendon were never a contender once this started happening.


Anyway, alot of people are havig a go at Lyon for his apparent inability to react - or even better initiate an alternate plan to win games.

I don't agree with them. I don't think he doesn't know how to, I just think he doesn't want to. And I'm pleased.

Quick fixes on game day, will not result in premierships.

We were lied to by the previous Board, the former President in particular. Lyon was not hired to take 'us to the next step'. This was rubbish. A new coach simply cannot walk in with an established list and just casually steer them to a flag - particularly not a rookie coach.

To hear Saints fans talking flags in 2007 was laughable.

Lyon was hired and the expectations were the same as any coach. 3 years before we're fair dinkum. He know none of the players, none of them knew him.

They needed for start to train how he wanted them. They needed to understand his game plan. They needed to learn to carry it out. Then when the inevitable rebuild takes place, they need to get to know their new teammates - and the new teammates need to learn the game plan.

3 years. I said it then, and I'll still say it.

The only thing that will drag it out longer, is if Lyon panics and strats deviating from his plan. He must stick to it. He must wear the heat of d**khead supporters screaming at a loss in R3, he must wear the heat of being told what to do by Mike Sheahan and Robert Walls, and he needs to stick to what he believes will work.

He needs to be patient.

It's like disciplining a child. 'Timeout' only works if you're consistent with it. Sometimes it's a pain in the arse and you'd simply like to clip them over the ear, but this lack of consistency - albeit of short term satisfaction, only causes confusion and drags out the learning process longer.

Lyon was never hired for 'the next step'. He's in the for the long haul. He needs to hold firm. He has the cattle, and he believes he has the plan - the only thing in the way is time - and impatience.

[Beej]

Interesting post, Rodge.

The only thing that will drag it out longer, is if Lyon panics and strats deviating from his plan. He must stick to it. He must wear the heat of d**khead supporters screaming at a loss in R3, he must wear the heat of being told what to do by Mike Sheahan and Robert Walls, and he needs to stick to what he believes will work.

Agreed.

Coaches can always tinker with their plan without making any major changes. For example, you could bet that Paul Roos will never adopt an all-out attacking game plan.

The second a coach deviates from his philosophy is when he's defeated as a coach. He realises that what he thought would produce results is in fact absolute rubbish.

Can you imagine Ross turning up to training one day and saying, "Ok boys, we've been pretty poor lately, game plan obviously isn't working, we've decided to go another way..."

He'd lose a great deal of respect because he has effectively given up.

[Mr Magic]

Has someone else logged in under rodgerfox' name and Avatar?


Are you sure you can believe what GT told you at the time? I only ask as I have witnessed him speaking on a number of occassions whilst coaching the Saints and was surprized at the time that what hew was saying on one occasion was totally different to what he said on the same subject previously. A similar scenario happened 2 0r 3 times and I formed the impression that GT thought long and hard about what he would say and tended to tell those 'groups' what he thought they wanted to hear.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

in all honesty Rogerfox i think RL cares what the fans think about his job about as much as you care about B4E's veiws on anything GT ..... RL is a professional he would give two hoots what we think he will pay lipservice to keep us fans happy and to continue to buy our memberships but his ultimate goal has SFA to do with listening to the fans .... if it was he would never of got the job

[Solar]

Agreed with almost everything you have said, it's funny how we can all get sucked in to believing the hype when sometimes a bit of patience will gain us more.

I really GET the whole muscle memory thing. There are times that the whole TEAM is in tune, they know where the tap is going or the ball will be travelling. A couple of first quarters this year have made me smile more then I have for a long time. But currently we can't do that for 4 quarters, but when it does come off we look great.

Having a certain plan but still moving players around to find the best fit is what Lyon needs to do. The performance will come from this.

[Beej]

Anyway, alot of people are havig a go at Lyon for his apparent inability to react - or even better initiate an alternate plan to win games.

I don't agree with them. I don't think he doesn't know how to, I just think he doesn't want to. And I'm pleased.

Quick fixes on game day, will not result in premierships.

No, we don't need an alternate plan but we do need to be more flexible.

A game of football is full of twists and turns. A coach's job is to recognise how the game is panning out and then make changes accordingly.

A coach needs to know when to slow the tempo, how to stop momentum, how to regain ascendancy, and when to go for the jugular. In other words, he needs to know when to change gears. A good team is one that can seemlessly go through the gears during a game.

I'm still yet to see a game, for Premiership points, that Lyon has turned around - in our favour.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

that muscle memory is great if all the factors are constant it doesn take into account injurys rain poor form bad umpiering ect ect if thats truely wat GT though was the best way to coach a team then its obvious the talk that the saints coached themself to the prelim has a lot of substance to it

[saintsRrising]

We were lied to by the previous Board, the former President in particular. Lyon was not hired to take 'us to the next step'. This was rubbish. A new coach simply cannot walk in with an established list and just casually steer them to a flag - particularly not a rookie coach.

.

I don't know about you Rodg....but taking the next step means to me progressing going forward..improving.

It implies movement and improvement...and doing things differently.

Hiring Lyon to get the Saints to the take the next step means to me that he was hired to improve the Saints......


It does not mean just more of the same.

Lyon was not hired just to be a different guy steering the ship.




For that matter the Saints board wanted an entirely different Officer structure in charge of the Ship.



Lyon was also bye the way just one of a number of the new "officer" changes..albiet a very important one.

Lyon was also given a ship with an incomplete crew....for some reason someone had hired not enough stokers in the engine room and too many people to fire the cannons.

The compliment of marines was also no where to be found.

And then many of the crew were AWOL on extended sick leave!!!

Luckilly one on salt who it seemed at had been on board forever was holding things together.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

We were lied to by the previous Board, the former President in particular. Lyon was not hired to take 'us to the next step'. This was rubbish. A new coach simply cannot walk in with an established list and just casually steer them to a flag - particularly not a rookie coach.

To hear Saints fans talking flags in 2007 was laughable.

I apologise for picking out one segment in what was a long and excellent post (Did you read the article by Michael Voss a couple of weeks ago? Similar theme with the opposite conclusion, he thought Lyon was the finisher). I do so because until this part you had me in near complete agreement, and while I understand the rest, as I don't accept this premise, this is where disagreement would lie.

And I don't suggest that this hasn't been the case in the AFL. I can't think of a coach who won a premiership without having been incumbant for some time. That's the culture of the game... the list and coach get to know each other, get to work together, and the coach tinkers with the list to suit the coach's approach to the game.

I can also see how easy it is to suggest Butters fired GT with no thought to a premiership only their troubled relationship. I have no doubt you'll find a lot of believers here. I will say this in disagreement: I honestly believe both Thomas and Butters were sincere in a premiership for St. Kilda being the #1 priority of their tenures.

I also believe the AFL model where a coach and team must grow together is flawed. We saw when Neil Craig took over from Ayers that understanding and motivating your list can engender a huge reversal of fortunes. In many other sports coach's tenures are much shorter, and much more tied to results... the coaching philosphy is only measure by wins and losses, not by whether it can theoretically win a premiership. In the NHL Pat Burns took over the New Jersey Devils in 2003. They won the Stanley Cup. Very different game, but point being he was a coach who suited their team better than his predecessor, and the results were immediate.

Very few AFL teams change coaches while anywhere but the bottom of the ladder or close to it. I'm content to give Lyon 2007 as grace due to a horrendous injury list. However, given a healthy list I expect a lot better in 2008.

[rodgerfox]

I also believe the AFL model where a coach and team must grow together is flawed. We saw when Neil Craig took over from Ayers that understanding and motivating your list can engender a huge reversal of fortunes. In many other sports coach's tenures are much shorter, and much more tied to results...

But Craig was already the club and had been for years.

It's not so much 'growing' together, but when you have 18 guys on the ground at a time, played with an oval ball (which heavily reduces he effect of set plays due to the randomness of the bounce) it takes time to cohesion.

With the inevitable influx of new players that a new coach will bring, it takes even more time.

[rodgerfox]

that muscle memory is great if all the factors are constant it doesn take into account injurys rain poor form bad umpiering ect ect if thats truely wat GT though was the best way to coach a team then its obvious the talk that the saints coached themself to the prelim has a lot of substance to it

You have missed the point by so far it's not funny.

By the way, the 'muscle memory' thing is actually one of Leigh Matthews'.

[joffaboy]

I spoke to Grant Thomas at a function in the week after the Swans broke our 'streak' back in 2004.

He spoke of teamwork, and constantly practising your game plan until it becomes 'muscle memory' as he put it.

I thought he would have told you about going to the movies and "wellness charts".

[rodgerfox]

I spoke to Grant Thomas at a function in the week after the Swans broke our 'streak' back in 2004.

He spoke of teamwork, and constantly practising your game plan until it becomes 'muscle memory' as he put it.

I thought he would have told you about going to the movies and "wellness charts".

He's gone. Move on.

[saintsRrising]

What I can't figure out then is why GT post Bonnie Doon adopted Plan B then?????

I mean post Bonnie Doon when the Saints changed how they played the game I was actually quite happy with GT's match day coaching and tactics.

Plan A was in the streak......which was obviously very good till the oppositon coaches started playing us differently.

Plan B was post Bonnie Doon....and to me by and large was good match day coaching.

[joffaboy]

What I can't figure out then is why GT post Bonnie Doon adopted Plan B then?????

I mean post Bonnie Doon when the Saints changed how they played the game I was actually quite happy with GT's match day coaching and tactics.

Plan A was in the streak......which was obviously very good till the oppositon coaches started playing us differently.

Plan B was post Bonnie Doon....and to me by and large was good match day coaching.

Apparently GT is gone. Move on.

even though some on here especially the OP'er cant

[rodgerfox]

What I can't figure out then is why GT post Bonnie Doon adopted Plan B then?????

I mean post Bonnie Doon when the Saints changed how they played the game I was actually quite happy with GT's match day coaching and tactics.

Plan A was in the streak......which was obviously very good till the oppositon coaches started playing us differently.

Plan B was post Bonnie Doon....and to me by and large was good match day coaching.

He didn't.

We did exactly what he was asking all along. Post Bonnie Doon we got players back from injury. That, and more than likely due to that, our intensity lifted. Good mature players are far better at following instruction and carrying out 100% effort for 4 quarters.

Very similar to Geelong last year. They did the same thing they'd be doing all along, it's just that when they were fit and available, they did it very, very well.

[rexy]

Didnt Matthews win a flag in his second year at the Lions?

Took over a talented list and took them to the next level.

[saintsRrising]

What I can't figure out then is why GT post Bonnie Doon adopted Plan B then?????

I mean post Bonnie Doon when the Saints changed how they played the game I was actually quite happy with GT's match day coaching and tactics.

Plan A was in the streak......which was obviously very good till the oppositon coaches started playing us differently.

Plan B was post Bonnie Doon....and to me by and large was good match day coaching.

He didn't.

We did exactly what he was asking all along. Post Bonnie Doon we got players back from injury. That, and more than likely due to that, our intensity lifted. Good mature players are far better at following instruction and carrying out 100% effort for 4 quarters.

Very similar to Geelong last year. They did the same thing they'd be doing all along, it's just that when they were fit and available, they did it very, very well.

??????

So when did plan A include playing extra men in defence and flooding????

It was Plan B Rodge.

New Gameplan.

GT flooded in this period.

After the streak GT said he would not flood....lost the Kangaroos game because he said finals teams did not win games like that.

Post Bonnie Doon the Saints flooded....and played a 7 man defence.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

agree rodgerfox

we have the core talent and we have topped up for what we need...

we are building a dynasty - there is no other word to best put it...a consistant unit that wins flags and challenges for them over a sustained period

our good players are only young and just coming into their primes...they arent even close yet

[rodgerfox]

What I can't figure out then is why GT post Bonnie Doon adopted Plan B then?????

I mean post Bonnie Doon when the Saints changed how they played the game I was actually quite happy with GT's match day coaching and tactics.

Plan A was in the streak......which was obviously very good till the oppositon coaches started playing us differently.

Plan B was post Bonnie Doon....and to me by and large was good match day coaching.

He didn't.

We did exactly what he was asking all along. Post Bonnie Doon we got players back from injury. That, and more than likely due to that, our intensity lifted. Good mature players are far better at following instruction and carrying out 100% effort for 4 quarters.

Very similar to Geelong last year. They did the same thing they'd be doing all along, it's just that when they were fit and available, they did it very, very well.

??????

So when did plan A include playing extra men in defence and flooding????

It was Plan B Rodge.

New Gameplan.

GT flooded in this period.

After the streak GT said he would not flood....lost the Kangaroos game because he said finals teams did not win games like that.

Post Bonnie Doon the Saints flooded....and played a 7 man defence.

SrS, that's not a new game plan. It's not a 'Plan B'.

It's adjusting your defense.

What we did post Bonnie Doon, was the same as we'd tried to do since 2003. After the week off that year, we got good players back in the team - and had some time to think about our effort.

We'd played 7 man defense plenty of times. Voss played in front of Lloyd and Richo in 05 when Sam Fisher had to play on them due to injury for example.

We didn't 'flood' as such. Our midfield simply worked harder. Therefore, they were sometimes deep in defense. They covered more gound.


Now enough of going over old ground. The point of this thread is that I believe Lyon needs to hold firm on his plan and not chop and change to protect his win/loss ratio.

If it means we need to wait a little longer, then so be it. It's the only way to build for a proper legitmate crack at being a contender.

With our 'guns' still being relatively young, we have time on our side.

[spert]

If Lyon wins us a flag in the next couple of years, I think his future looks good.

[markp]

If Lyon wins us a flag in the next couple of years, I think his future looks good.

I think to do this we should try fairly hard to make the finals (a good way to do this would be to win several more games than we lose during the season perhaps), then if we make the finals we should try really hard to get into the Grandfinal (again, mostly winning in the finals would be immeasurably helpful here) ... once there I would suggest we should try really really hard to kick more goals than the other team, or conversely (and contentiously) we try to stop the other team from kicking as many goals as us (I'm really not fussed either way myself, but trying to kick more goals is more fun to watch)... Pretty sure that would/may work.

But perhaps in the meantime discussing GT and what went on at Bonnie Doon endlessly could be helpful too.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

You have missed the point by so far it's not funny.

By the way, the 'muscle memory' thing is actually one of Leigh Matthews'.

When Lenny gets the ball and looks up, he knows Gehrig will be there. When Gehrig sees Lenny get the ball, he knows exactly where Lenny will turn etc. etc. .

what happens when gehrig is injured does lenny look up and kick it to where Gehrig should be adapting and modifying a game plan is the only way to keep one set ahead through out GT's Reighn we were constantly copying sucessful teams not making out own style hence why we fell over

[saintsRrising]

We didn't 'flood' as such. Our midfield simply worked harder. Therefore, they were sometimes deep in defense. They covered more gound.

Ah ha....now I understand why you say that the Saints only had a Plan A.

Your Plan A is very flexible.



Though I don't agree with your interpretation.,,,,,nor why GT prior to that would have been content to have a midfield that was not working hard enough.


And if muscle memory has the Saints always in set parts of the ground........why does working harder suddenly find them in different parts of the ground??? Or does muscle memory automatically adjust with workrate?

[Red]

What happens grand final day and the game doesn't go to plan.

Do you keep playing the same way because we are building a dynasty which

is normally only a couple of years anyway.

To win a Premiership you need to be top 4 and to be top 4 you need to pinch

a couple of games.