Why do supporters fall for the hype? (injuries) LONG POST

[benengel14]

Injuries frustrate me as much as they do every St Kilda supporter, but there is something that comes close to the frustration of seeing players come off early, not meet come-back estimations, or the same 2/3 weeks on the injury list - and that's the constant willingness by supporters to fall for the same trap/pattern of convincing themselves and others that it will change. "We're only 3 weeks away and we'll have 99% of the playing list at our disposal" "Who are they going to drop now?" "Finally some competition for positions" "imagine the score-line next time we play them with a full list".

It's not just the supporters that get sucked in, its the media as well. This pre-season not enough could be written about David Misson.

"ST KILDA has taken another major step to rectifying its fitness and injury rehabilitation programs by snaring Sydney's elite performance manager David Misson. " "St Kilda president Rod Butterss said yesterday the club was delighted with Misson's appointment, which would be a key in keeping the team's players fit and injury-free." (Herald Sun, 28 Sept 2007)

Yet none of the coverage by the media in articles such as the above or in The Age seem to make any reference to the fact that we've heard the same story too many times.

Craig Starcevich, I remember was the messiah in 2006. With the club only to willing to spread the word that a solution was found, and that we were on the right track.

A complete review of the department was ordered at the end of the season and culminated in the installation of former Brisbane Lions fitness guru Craig Starcevich as the new training services manager, overseeing all aspects of the club's strength, conditioning, fitness and medical activities. Starcevich has been the brains behind Brisbane's strength and conditioning program for the past nine years and his work in getting the absolute best out of his players was a vital component behind the Lions' triple-premiership run.

Why are the media so willing to accept the Misson appointment as the solution, and an indicator that times have changed?

Not having a go at the poster here, but just the first example I came across today.

Afte the first 2 NAB games it is obvious our depth is excellent.
If our fitness staff do their job and we have some luck it will be a difficult Thursday night each week for the selection committee:
After much deliberation here is my attempt:
Can't believe that I cannot fit Schneider or Geary in at this stage!

If you look at the track record over the past 3+ years there is just no conceivable way that anyone could predict we'll be injury free and that we'll have problems fitting quality players into a 22 man line-up. It just hasn't happened and I could all but guarantee wont happen this year either.

The deadline for a full list where fitting players into a line-up just keeps moving in some supporters minds.
First it was, they'll have an extended break because we're not playing finals, get the operations done early, fit for a whole pre-season.
Now it's. Despite not having played yet we're confident that they'll start Round 1 in a good condition. (Riewoldt/Hayes/Maguire/Hudghton/Ball - you name it!).
Couple of weeks it will be they'll be ready to take on the premiers in Round 4.
After that...the supporter mind-set changes to mid-season, that's what will fix it. A week's rest! That will allow everyone to recover.

Injury Lists, Press Announcements, Post-match interviews, Media speculation. CRAP!
Until they are on the park performing as we know they can, that is the only indicator we have. And for the past 3+ years it hasn't happened to the group (Collectively speaking). There is nothing to suggest that it will change.

I don't want to second-guess the club on it's policy to obfuscate injuries, or to promote appointments of Fitness staff as the "be all and end all". If they think it helps them 'sell the club'..so be it.

BUY WHY DO WE BUY IT? And why does the media not apply more pressure?

The second we stop buying it as supporters, and the media stop buying it, there's a chance the club could be held accountable. Whether this results in a new ground-breaking disclosure with supporters regarding injuries and injury management. Or a review done by an external auditor that's made public which compares our club to 15 other clubs. Or if it simply results in myself getting less frustrated with posts like "ashjam" Our situation can only improve.

[Iceman234]

Hamill two weeks

(apart from that degenerative........oh sh1t here we go again.....)

[StSteven]

True......the best predictor of future performance is past performance.

I am not optimistic re the regularly injured. Let's hope the "new blood" are more hardy.

PS While Steven King is a good bloke and will try his guts out, he has not been on the park at Geelong for much of the past three years. What is going to change.......? They are not stupid down there and let him go for good reason.

At least Charlie G is not injury prone (I think).

[ausfatcat]

Because we want to believe





Also it's the NAB FFS.

And every team gets injuries.

[saint66au]

It works both ways

Yes we have had a shocking run with injuries in recent years. So, when theres the slightest whiff of a potential St Klda injury in Feb, HERE WE GO AGAIN is screamed from the roof tops in the media. You'd reckon Max and Kosi had been taken out by snipers the way the commentators went on about it

As Saints fans, we look at any tiny niggle thorough a microscope..but just at the moment we are travelling MUCH better than at least the last two years IMHO

As I posted elsewhere, Freo, Swans and now Collingwood have each lost a player to an ACL injury. Ours is only a stupid rumour. I reckon Paul Haselby would take a bit of hammy tightness right now

[saintsRrising]

Craig Starcevich, I remember was the messiah in 2006. .

Well he may well have been meant to be...trouble is he never really arrived and never moved to Victoria.

His wife won the battle and he gave up on us and resumed work in Qld again.

[benengel14]

Because we want to believe
Also it's the NAB FFS.

And every team gets injuries.

I want to believe as well. There's nothing more I'd like than to see us rate as well as some other clubs in terms of injury management and getting close to a full list to pick from. And having trouble picking only 22 players.

But its a pattern as I described above, that we go through every year as supporters. As rational beings it just doesn't make sense to get continually sucked into it.

As StSteven put it "the best predictor of future performance is past performance." Past 3 years hasn't provided us much of an outlook.

If we stopped blindly believing the hype just because we like the promised end result, perhaps change can occur (or at the least change occur more readily).

I just refuse to believe that all of Hayes, Maguire, Riewoldt, Gehrig, Ball, Sam Fisher, Kosi, King, Clarke, Hudghton (and the others who are under injury clouds/"forced rotations" who can contend for top-5 on match-day) will line up in Round 1. Or even through to Round 22.

[bigcarl]

this is from a post i made earlier today which i will be bumping each time we lose a player to injury this season. it is how the club should treat injuries


CRISIS CREATES OPPORTUNITY

injuries will happen regularly through a season, nothing is surer ... often to key players. you can't control it.

saturday was a good illustration. kosi, fraser and max would all miss next week if it were the regular season

we've taken a positive step by appointing misson but he can't influence what happens in the heat of battle.

yabby jeans used to dress injuries up as a positive by saying "crisis creates opportunity"

ie: injuries to key players, while distressing to the club and its fans, create a chance for someone else to prove his worth.

no-one is irreplaceable. not riewoldt, not fraser, not kosi, not dal, not even ross lyon. it is a team

imo we need to take this robust approach into 2008.

if anyone falls over, given our depth, there should be two or three eager to take his place and show his worth

so rather than saying "bugger it, we can't win without such and such" we should be saying "crisis creates opportunity

[saintsRrising]

The second we stop buying it as supporters, and the media stop buying it, there's a chance the club could be held accountable. .

I thought they were....which is why GT got the chop....and then in turn the previous Board was given the chop by FF after being supported bya groundswell of average members and therir proxies...

[saintsRrising]

I just refuse to believe that all of Hayes, Maguire, Riewoldt, Gehrig, Ball, Sam Fisher, Kosi, King, Clarke, Hudghton (and the others who are under injury clouds/"forced rotations" who can contend for top-5 on match-day) will line up in Round 1. Or even through to Round 22.

So by your logic the Cat's who had as many players out as the Saints will also be struggling for Round 1???

[benengel14]

HERE WE GO AGAIN is screamed from the roof tops in the media.

See I don't think it is, I can't say I read the sports section religiously every day. But the impression I get is that they brought the entire "David Mission Messiah" story and will stick to it for the time being. Just like appointment of Starcevich shelved any serious investigation/change.

As Saints fans, we look at any tiny niggle thorough a microscope..but just at the moment we are travelling MUCH better than at least the last two years IMHO

As I posted elsewhere, Freo, Swans and now Collingwood have each lost a player to an ACL injury. Ours is only a stupid rumour. I reckon Paul Haselby would take a bit of hammy tightness right now

Hayes, Maguire, Goddard, Gehrig, Kosi, Riewoldt, Hudghton, you could make a decent spine out of that for a club, (wait that is our spine!) And they're all suspect, with supporters clueless as to any true extent of injury.

I'm not claiming our current state is much worse than some other clubs, I just don't think we should continually buy into the hype that David Misson is the be all and end all, and that all will be right by round 1 when nearly a full-list will be available.

Hamill - 2 weeks (Iceman234) as Exhibit A, is a pretty decent comment to make.

[benengel14]

I just refuse to believe that all of Hayes, Maguire, Riewoldt, Gehrig, Ball, Sam Fisher, Kosi, King, Clarke, Hudghton (and the others who are under injury clouds/"forced rotations" who can contend for top-5 on match-day) will line up in Round 1. Or even through to Round 22.

So by your logic the Cat's who had as many players out as the Saints will also be struggling for Round 1???

The premise of the thread is that this is a historical trend, of supporters buying into "everything will be alright by date X, and "Can't wait for next round, imagine all the INS!!"
I would not have a clue about the current state of the list - who's injured, who's likely to get through training/4 qtrs of match-time/level of fitness (as clubs don't disclose it). We will only be able to assess the current state in about 2-3 months time by estimating it from watching who lines up and their performance. I wouldn't be prepared to rank it against geelong right at this moment.

[saintsRrising]

Why are the media so willing to accept the Misson appointment as the solution, and an indicator that times have changed?

.

We all hope that they are changing. But it is a bit to much to hope that they could have changed already.

Misson is bring in new systems......and not a wave of a magic wand.

Remember also that the Cats new fitness head started May of he year prior to the Cats having such a good turn around.

In addition Misson should be measured as a success if he can deliver to the Saints an average number of soft tissue injuries......and not against a zero injury rate.

He he can achieve a better than average rate....even better.

Whether Misson is a success can not yet be measured...but by seasons end we will havea better idea.

[benengel14]

We all hope that they are changing. But it is a bit to much to hope that they could have changed already.

I've had this "hope" for 3+ years, and as I've pointed out an appointment of a "guru" by itself is not enough to dispel the historical trend.

Since when can hope be a constant substitute for truth/disclosure? We expect more from our Government, I don't think the club is beyond reproach in this regard.

What does this continued hope achieve?

- I can't see any greater disclosure regarding injuries or injury management. Or evidence that besides the appointment of a "guru" changes are occurring. Why FF and Misson's hype is any different than RB/GT and Starcevich's hype?

To my knowledge; the media has not forced this as yet, and neither have us as supporters. Or maybe the club has failed to disclose and promote the actual changes it has made.

I don't want to be cast as a pessimist...who waits for Monday Morning to say "Here we go AGAIN" - thats not the supporter I am. I just want CHANGE! Or a compelling reason/s to believe that change is occurring. HOPE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH ANYMORE. I feel the club owes us more in terms of disclosure/action, especially after claiming the mandate it did removing the previous administration.

What are other's thoughts? Do you think the club owes us more in disclosure? Or does hope/good intentions suffice?

[Oh When the Saints]

A close friend of mine has an extensive background in athletics, football and sports science, and what I'm saying here is along the lines of what they have told me ...... some credibility I hope.


The key with injury management is consistency over time.

If we take for example Sydney's good run in 2005, look at how long they had their structures in place. Misson had been there three years, and they had been using the European software for 12 months.

2004 - Chris Jones
2005 - Adam Larcom
2006 - Craig Starcevich
2007 - Peter Mulkearns
2008 - David Misson

Consistency over time.

How can we have consistency if we have someone different in place each year?

The industry is far from an exact science, and there are vastly different methods used by different individuals with regard to training programs and injury prevention.


I'm not attempting to make excuses, and in the thick of an emotive cloud of frustration reason is often easy to dismiss.

Consistency over time.

We have not had that at the St Kilda Football Club for a long time. Chris Jones was there from 2001, and by 2004 he had injuries at the club under control ...... we had a few missing at various points, but by and large most of our key players were available when we needed them.


There are a whole host of other factors that come into it .... and as unpleasant as it is, one of the reasons can be that some people are more injury prone than others.

That's just the way it goes ... some of the hamstrings and quads at St Kilda are not made for AFL football.

This can be overcome to an extent, but never perfectly.


Your best chance is consistency over time.

[Otiman]

I think i'm missing the point here, are you having a go at the club not fully disclosing our injury list, or at the injuries themselves?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I don't want to be cast as a pessimist...who waits for Monday Morning to say "Here we go AGAIN" - thats not the supporter I am. I just want CHANGE! Or a compelling reason/s to believe that change is occurring. HOPE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH ANYMORE. I feel the club owes us more in terms of disclosure/action, especially after claiming the mandate it did removing the previous administration.

What are other's thoughts? Do you think the club owes us more in disclosure? Or does hope/good intentions suffice?

I think the money and resources thrown at it through this offseason suffice for now from a club perspective.

I think that either expecting an injury free round 1 list or subscribing to "here we go again" is subscribing to disapointment. Time will tell whether we're luckier, whether the spin doctors are out in force, and whether the list of players yet to see NAB cup time has done enough through pre-season.

As supporters it's only natural for us to want to know. To fill in the gaps in knowledge with either optomism (entire list healthy) or past experience (decimation). But before getting too excited or upset in February, just ask yourself:

How many angels dance on the head of a pin?

[theghostfromgronggrong]

Here is the perfect solution for you benegal -

If the optimism of fellow saints supporters is getting you down you could always try this old trick.

Get down on all fours, put your head under ur torso and then, with all your effort, slowly slide ur head up ur arse.

This may prove uncomfortable at first but you can take comfort in the fact that the optimism that annoys you so greatly will soon be replaced by nothing but your very own shyte.

Let me know if this helps!

[brown-coat]

It's the same every year, with every team.

Just remember that EVERY SINGLE YEAR, every teams supporters are made to believe their team has had their "best pre-season ever". Nobody is injured, everyone is 100% fit and ready to go.

That's all i have to say about that.

[Quixote]

Here is the perfect solution for you benegal -

If the optimism of fellow saints supporters is getting you down you could always try this old trick.

Get down on all fours, put your head under ur torso and then, with all your effort, slowly slide ur head up ur arse.

This may prove uncomfortable at first but you can take comfort in the fact that the optimism that annoys you so greatly will soon be replaced by nothing but your very own shyte.

Let me know if this helps!

[ttufc7]

Yes we have had a shocking run with injuries in recent years. So, when theres the slightest whiff of a potential St Klda injury in Feb, HERE WE GO AGAIN is screamed from the roof tops in the media. You'd reckon Max and Kosi had been taken out by snipers the way the commentators went on about it

I definately noticed this on saturdays TV coverage. The reaction to kosi, G and max leaving the field was unbelievably over the top. Sure it was dissapointing to see but immediatly each commentator suddenly became a medical expert and begun sprouting their own prognosis without having any facts about the situation.

Also every news report i saw following was along the lines of "Saints pay price for win" or "Victory in dark day for saints"

Why for once couldn't the headline be about how the young guys stood up under great pressure? or the after match interview be with Jack Steven to see how he feels after kicking the winning goal instead of just jumping on kosi to immediatly ask about his injury?

I guess doom and gloom makes for better TV and nwspaper articles

[Winmarvellous]

As rational beings

If you can find one amongst the St Kilda faithful, let me know old friend

[Saint_in_SA]

Here is the perfect solution for you benegal -

If the optimism of fellow saints supporters is getting you down you could always try this old trick.

Get down on all fours, put your head under ur torso and then, with all your effort, slowly slide ur head up ur arse.

This may prove uncomfortable at first but you can take comfort in the fact that the optimism that annoys you so greatly will soon be replaced by nothing but your very own shyte.

Let me know if this helps!

ROTFLMFAO!

[benengel14]

Here is the perfect solution for you benegal -

If the optimism of fellow saints supporters is getting you down you could always try this old trick.
Etc/Etc...

ROTFLMFAO!

I agree with you that the post both added value to the discussion, and was a display of such wit and intelligence that credit must be given where its due.
"ROTLMFAO" indeed!
GhostfromGG: The post was made to assess the knowledge (of supporters) about any actual changes being made by our club, and any attitudes towards the lack of disclosure of "actual changes". If you think that is self-important/pretentious - then perhaps you should just say so, no one needs to read that crap.

Also every news report i saw following was along the lines of "Saints pay price for win" or "Victory in dark day for saints"

Why for once couldn't the headline be about how the young guys stood up under great pressure?
I guess doom and gloom makes for better TV and nwspaper articles

More attention should be paid to the players who perform under the added pressure, and the mere fact that we have overcome some quality opposition (in the past) with a significant portion of our playing list absent. - Agree completely.

I'm also sick of the amount of injury stories that we have to read, and how it almost manages to tarnish the players left on the field.

My point is this;
- The media and supporters do not hold the club accountable (enough) for injury management/number of injuries.
- If supporters/media did not accept "guru appointments" as entire solutions, the club may be pressured to disclose (assuming they have one) their plan to change the historical trend.
- And as a side-note, pressure could also be applied to make the club more forthcoming with the extent of injuries.

[Pwoit]

HERE it Comes again.....................