a goal-kicking forward line

[bigcarl]

Interesting post on bigfooty about the greatest goal-kicking forward lines in a season. here's two they've come up with.


ESSENDON 2000
Mercuri (32) Scott Lucas (57) James Hird (36)
Caracella (35) Matthew Lloyd (109) Steven Alessio (24)
TOTAL: 293


ST KILDA 2004
Riewoldt (67) Gehrig (103) Hamill (27)
Koschitzke (20) Milne (46) Guerra (29)
TOTAL: 292

These are the types of even contributions we want, imo. not just leave it to one or two blokes.

I'm thinking 2008
Kosi 80
Roo 70
Milne 45
Gilbert 35
BJ 35
Schneider 30
Total: 290

[Nick_Dal_Santo = ChAmPiOn]

i'd set up something like this:

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Dal
F: Milne, Kosi, Harvey

wat about schneider?

[bigcarl]

i'd set up something like this:

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Dal
F: Milne, Kosi, Harvey

wat about schneider?

well, my line-up changes around a bit. doesn't matter so long as they can kick goals.

[plugger66]

Interesting post on bigfooty about the greatest goal-kicking forward lines in a season. here's two they've come up with.


ESSENDON 2000
Mercuri (32) Scott Lucas (57) James Hird (36)
Caracella (35) Matthew Lloyd (109) Steven Alessio (24)
TOTAL: 293


ST KILDA 2004
Riewoldt (67) Gehrig (103) Hamill (27)
Koschitzke (20) Milne (46) Guerra (29)
TOTAL: 292

These are the types of even contributions we want, imo. not just leave it to one or two blokes.

I'm thinking 2008
Kosi 80
Roo 70
Milne 45
Gilbert 35
BJ 35
Schneider 30
Total: 290

Dont want to be negative but Kosi isnt going to kick 80 and Roo isnt going to kick 70 unless he plays FF all year. Milne and Gilbert will not kick that many either especially Gilbert as he will play back most of the year.

[Eastern]

Could Luke Ball play mainly as a forward (FP or HFF) in 2008? !!

[bigcarl]

Dont want to be negative but Kosi isnt going to kick 80 and Roo isnt going to kick 70 unless he plays FF all year. Milne and Gilbert will not kick that many either especially Gilbert as he will play back most of the year.

i'm allowed to dream aren't i?

where are our goals going to come from?

[plugger66]

Could Luke Ball play mainly as a forward (FP or HFF) in 2008? !!

Not if he is fit.

[F_Q_F]

Could Luke Ball play mainly as a forward (FP or HFF) in 2008? !!

He could but I think he is far too valuable in the middle. Thats where I think he does his best work around the clearances.

With Schneider, Milne, Harves (I'd say he would spend more time forward next year), X. Clarke, Fiora and maybe even Armitage or Howard forward we have quite a few options.

I wouldn't think we would have set forward line apart from the talls. The rotation of players through the midfield will determine which players start in the forward line etc.

The team is capable of kicking a winning score without having to rely too heavily on Kosi and Roo to bag 5 or 6, its just mainly the accuracy of our midfielders that lets us down.

With Frase gone now I think our midfielders should become a little more selfish and have a shot, where as when Frase was down there the first option was kicking it to him. Accuracy and confidence are the key.

[n1ck]

C: Fiora - Ball - Gram / Gilbert*

HF: Harvey - Roo - Schneider

FF: Milne - Kosi - X Clarke / Goddard^


* Gram and Gilbert to rotate through Half Back and the Wing

^ X Clarke and Goddard to rotate through FF line and the bench, although X can play up the ground as well.

I think Goddard may well spend at least the first half of the year up forward, getting used to the pace of the game after almost a year on the sidelines.

[Eastern]

I like the idea of having our better (midfield) players rest occasionally in the Forward Pocket rather than the bench every time. Bally, Dal, Lenny, Harvs, X rotating through there with Milney & Schnieder would be a real headache for the opposition !!

[F_Q_F]

Main- Riewoldt, Kositzche, Milne, Schneider

2nd- Birss, Dal Santo, Hayes, Gram, Montagna, X. Clarke, Goddard, Fiora

3rd- Ball, Harvey, Jones, Armitage, Blake, Gilbert, Baker

4th- Maguire, Fisher

This is the way I see it. I have grouped the players into the importance of them kicking goals. I personally think that we need Gram and Gilbert to play in the backline because of the drive forward they provide.

If the main group could kick 7-10 goals between them, which they should easily, then if a few in the next could bag a couple we would kick a winning score most of the games.

I agree with n1ck about Goddard about playing up forward for most of the year.

[bigcarl]

i'd like to see a comparison of geelong's top six goal-kickers against st kilda's top six for season 2007, if anyone has access to those sort of figures.

my guess is that this is the story it will tell:
geelong - countless reliable avenues to goal.
st kilda - not enough reliable avenues to goal.

yes i realise you have to get it down there; but the ability to convert forward thrusts to goals cannot be underestimated in my own humble opinion.

[Teflon]

I think its nice to say "lets rest our gun mids in a forward pocket" and its also a little easy....theres a reason why the interchange bench is used more in the modern game than in history......players are shagged, the game is breakneck speed and you need a rest - a flat out fwd line at AFL level isnt really much respite.

Its a good theory in under 10's though.

[Ghost Like]

I like the idea of having our better (midfield) players rest occasionally in the Forward Pocket rather than the bench every time. Bally, Dal, Lenny, Harvs, X rotating through there with Milney & Schnieder would be a real headache for the opposition !!

Totally agree Eastern, a 3 station rotation would be best: Start in middle (bust a gut), hit the bench for a breather and fluids, then hit the forward pocket to create some havoc and warm up before hitting the middle again.

[saintsRrising]

just out of interest, which two teams outperformed us in scoring shots per inside 50m and disposals per scoring shot in the second half of the season?

The two grand finalists, Port and Cats.

i rest my case

Well pick it up again.......as the main reason we were poor and not scoring enough was our underforming midfield.




Yes however the forward line needs improving......RL knows this...and that is why he tragetted Schneider.

[saintsRrising]

we fell down badly in 2007 in not being able to kick winning scores

imo this was partly because of RL's dubious "numbers behind the ball" philosophy/game plan, which, in effect means that we didn't really have permanent forwards save for fraser.

i'd like a return to a more traditional set-up in which we have a forward line that is capable of turning opportunities to goals.

i'd set up something like this:

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert

i like the look of the wings here. gram and gilbert both get plenty of the ball and would be continually launching goalwards with long, direct kicks

thoughts anyone

Yes are we talking about Sam Gilbert????


His run was fantastic...but his kicking was often dreadfu. So I am not sure why he is now a master of long direct kicks. As a late rugby convert he will hopefuly improve his kicking somewhat.


One of Gilbets greatest assets is his tackling....he is superb....so putting him out in space would bea waste.

I would much prefer him down back where his run and great tackling wil pressure the opposition . Yes use hoim asa swingman at times...but mainly down back....and keep him off the wings so that we exploit his tackling.

[saintsRrising]

yep i agree that we improved in the second half of the year in this area. perhaps the message got through to RL about the crucial importance of fast delivery of the ball forward rather than chipping it around.

Or rather the message got though to the players who were not doing what RL wanted much to RL's frustration!!!!!

The gameplan did not change in the second half...just the players started to execute it properly and with confidence.

the ability to convert opportunities to goals is what separates good teams from also-rans.

Indeed...would help for example if X kicked golas rather than points!!!!

[bigcarl]

Yes however the forward line needs improving......RL knows this...and that is why he tragetted Schneider.

the addition of schneider is not going to be enough. we need a more even spread of goal-kickers and not just leave it up to riewoldt to kick us a winning score, wonderful player though he is

[saintsRrising]

Could Luke Ball play mainly as a forward (FP or HFF) in 2008? !!

Not if he is fit.

Agree..if he is fit.....we need him asa mid.


He was only played asa small forward as he was virtually crippled in 2007.....a bit like WC with Judd when he was badly restricted.

[saintsRrising]

Yes however the forward line needs improving......RL knows this...and that is why he tragetted Schneider.

the addition of schneider is not going to be enough. we need a more even spread of goal-kickers and not just leave it up to riewoldt to kick us a winning score, wonderful player though he is

fully agree on the last point....which is why I think you will find that Kosi will play FF with Kosi as the other key forward.
Milne and Schneider will be the smalls....with midfielders rotationg through the forward line.



Someone mobile like Allen may be played as a third tall....and C gardiner will have crack at this spot too.





However players have to convert...confidence will help with this.....as will understanding their role better.


X missed many sitters last year...as did Fior.




Also do not forget that the prime source of goals is from stoppages...this is why getting King or Gardi on the park along with an improved midfield is vital. I heard the new Dees coach speak at length on this not long ago....and his theory and stats made a lot of sense.


Improve our performances in stoppages and you will lift our goal scoring rate.


For too many years have the Saints had things too eliant on having supposedly the best forward line in the AFL (though admitedlly hamill did not play last year0...whereas what we really needed to conentrate on was having the best TEAM and TEAM PLAY in the AFL.


This is what the Cats achieved in 2007....yes they had many paths to goal, but this came about from having a very well balanced team starting witha superb defence and then going through the team line by line.....with the players totally committed and confident in executing their game plan.



Gone are the days of just kicking it long to forwards and hoping that they will blast the oppostion away.



This does not mean that you do not try and optimise your forward set- up...as you do. But rather that it is only part of the puzzle.



For this reason I personally would leave Gilbert and BJ in defence.

BJ sets up the play....and also he will makea huge difference to ur kicks ins from FB which were dreadful in 2007.

Gilbert is a superb tackler and with his pace he will worry and pressure the opposition forwards causing turnovers.

They will help to give us a rock solid and attcking defence.

[saintsRrising]

i'd like to see a comparison of geelong's top six goal-kickers against st kilda's top six for season 2007, if anyone has access to those sort of figures.

my guess is that this is the story it will tell:
geelong - countless reliable avenues to goal.
st kilda - not enough reliable avenues to goal.

yes i realise you have to get it down there; but the ability to convert forward thrusts to goals cannot be underestimated in my own humble opinion.

Interesting is it not that in 2007 that the Cats moved probably their best small forward in G Ablett into the midfield in order to improve their engine room (along with other changes...). Selwood emerging in the midfield wasa real BONUS for them....and this allowed another change with Ling playing as an attacking tagging mid...probably the best of his type in 2008. Ottens in the ruck back in almost career best form completed the super-charging of what was alreadya pretty handy but under-achieving Geelong midfield.


having now true depth and qulaity in their midfield allowed the ctas to keep the pressure on and eased the load.

By contrast the depleted Saints mids in 2007 saw for example Dal often been picked off to lessen his effectivenessas our on truly fit mid aprt from Harvey who on showing great form was then tagged relentlessly......Ball being ignored since he was onlya shadow of what he can be....

With Hayes back in form late in the year our stocks stated to rise......but we really need to improve the depth and qulaity of our mids. A fit Ball and an emerging Armo or Geary...combined Hayes/Joey/Fiora/Harvey will see the saints start to tick over and for Dal to really shine as the star that we know he can be.


The harsh reality is that we need to improve BOTH our forward line and our midfield.....while keeping a solid defence.

[bigcarl]

i'd still like to see a comparison of our top six goal-kickers against geelongs for last season. does anyone have access to those sorts of figures?

[rodgerfox]

For too many years have the Saints had things too reliant on having supposedly the best forward line in the AFL (though admitedlly hamill did not play last year...whereas what we really needed to conentrate on was having the best TEAM and TEAM PLAY in the AFL.

I don't think this is true at all.

At what point did we as a club attempt to rely on our forward line?

At what point in the past have we not tried to be about the 'team' an not individuals?

We've been attempting to eradicate the 'individual brilliance' aspect of our club since Thomas took over 7 years ago.

We've been concentrating on that categorically and absolutely for 7 years now.

[rodgerfox]

Interesting is it not that in 2007 that the Cats moved probably their best small forward in G Ablett into the midfield in order to improve their engine room (along with other changes...). Selwood emerging in the midfield wasa real BONUS for them....and this allowed another change with Ling playing as an attacking tagging mid...probably the best of his type in 2008. Ottens in the ruck back in almost career best form completed the super-charging of what was alreadya pretty handy but under-achieving Geelong midfield.


having now true depth and qulaity in their midfield allowed the ctas to keep the pressure on and eased the load.

By contrast the depleted Saints mids in 2007 saw for example Dal often been picked off to lessen his effectivenessas our on truly fit mid aprt from Harvey who on showing great form was then tagged relentlessly......Ball being ignored since he was onlya shadow of what he can be....

With Hayes back in form late in the year our stocks stated to rise......but we really need to improve the depth and qulaity of our mids. A fit Ball and an emerging Armo or Geary...combined Hayes/Joey/Fiora/Harvey will see the saints start to tick over and for Dal to really shine as the star that we know he can be.

The harsh reality is that we need to improve BOTH our forward line and our midfield.....while keeping a solid defence.

Exactly what you're saying is that we, like Geelong last year, need a good run with injuries.

[Armoooo]

Geelong:
Mooney 67
Johnson 49
N.Ablett 34
Stokes 32
Chapman 30
G.Ablett 25

St.Kilda:
Gehrig 59
Riewoldt 42
Milne 32
Koschitzke 26
Fiora 12