R.Lyon Clean out

[saintspremiers]

watts and mcqualter I believe deserved more time.

there was a good arguement to give brooks more game time based on his magoos form.

I'm sure GT would agree with you.

That's how he liked to play the list (mis) management game.....give ALL players about 3 or 4 years minimum, then fiddle fuddle around and ditch them after 5 years of no results.

IMHFO Lyon is far better - he calls a spade a spade and is prepared to dump iffy players quickly.....with only 38 on your list, you can't afford to adopt a GT 1980's attitude to list management!

[plugger66]

watts and mcqualter I believe deserved more time.

there was a good arguement to give brooks more game time based on his magoos form.

I'm sure GT would agree with you.

That's how he liked to play the list (mis) management game.....give ALL players about 3 or 4 years minimum, then fiddle fuddle around and ditch them after 5 years of no results.

IMHFO Lyon is far better - he calls a spade a spade and is prepared to dump iffy players quickly.....with only 38 on your list, you can't afford to adopt a GT 1980's attitude to list management!

Luckily the Roos didnt do that with McIntosh.

[Ghost Like]

McIntosh must have shown something plugger66. I'm sure the Roos have turned over a few ordinary players in the same tme. Nice pick up by them, good piece of recruiting.

Trying to look ahead, I don't think RL is finished. He may have capped the turnover at 10 for this year and possibly has his eyes fixed on a few more at the end of 2008. I'd say the players will be left in no doubt that he has a plan and the will to carry it out. Possibly the last chance for some name players?

I'm thinking the Clarkes and Goose - As players who, free from injuries, will have to build on the talent they've displayed (promised) in the past and become indispensable to our best 22 and leaders.

Then there is Gwilt, Ferguson, Jones, Gardiner (M) and Rix - As players who if given a chance a chance really cannot afford to make a mistake.

Theoretically there could be another 6 to 10 next season and I don't even want to think about the great man's retirement.

[Oh When the Saints]

Everyone carries on about McIntosh.

In 2005, when they were playing finals, McIntosh was only selected once in the Roos side.

In 2006, when they were struggling down the bottom, it was a lot easier to give guys like McIntosh a few games at AFL level. Mandatory in fact. That kicked along his development.


Unfortunately when a club is reasonably successful over a few years (like the Saints), if your kids can't show something in their first 5-6 opportunities at AFL level, then they aren't likely to get too many more goes at it.

When the club is down the bottom, you will be given heaps more opportunities - like McIntosh.

That's just the way it works. If you want us to play all these young kids all the time, and watch them develop, then we must finish 14th-16th.

[Ghost Like]

Everyone carries on about McIntosh.

In 2005, when they were playing finals, McIntosh was only selected once in the Roos side.

In 2006, when they were struggling down the bottom, it was a lot easier to give guys like McIntosh a few games at AFL level. Mandatory in fact. That kicked along his development.


Unfortunately when a club is reasonably successful over a few years (like the Saints), if your kids can't show something in their first 5-6 opportunities at AFL level, then they aren't likely to get too many more goes at it.

When the club is down the bottom, you will be given heaps more opportunities - like McIntosh.

That's just the way it works. If you want us to play all these young kids all the time, and watch them develop, then we must finish 14th-16th.

There must be other ways OWTS, Collingwood seems to have a got a few games into their younger players and have been more than competitive. Hopefully if we have a relatively full list this year we can play a couple of kids with the more experienced players so they don't get lit up and then sent back to Casey, never to be seen again.

[CURLY]

What criteria does a player need to be rated good enough to be a premiership player?

Before Ports 2004 season began would anyone have rated Josh Mohaney Damon White and Thurstans as players required to min a flag. What about Sydney Lewis Roberts Thompson a premiership CHB what would any club give up for him. Ess 2000 side had Barnard Wallace Moorcroft Blumfield and Heffernan all players youd hardly offer the world to. The key element surely is to gel the 22 you put out into the into a PREMIERSHIP TEAM.

[saint66au]

Interesting that despite all the talk of a huge list makeover..most peoples Round 1 team has just 2 new players..plus Gardiner who's returing from injury..

Its the bottom half of the list thats been totally revamped..and Im very cool with that

[saintsRrising]

What criteria does a player need to be rated good enough to be a premiership player?

.

Quite simple...they just have to play ina Premiership Team.....


...and there are some duds who have this distinction.....so it is no guarantee that they are a worthwhile player....but yes it is a very good indicator.

[ben_fff]

I'm happier with the way our list looks at the moment compared to how it looked at the start of last season.

The problem wth Watts is he isn't fast... so unless he's a great endurance runner like Richo then it would be really hard for him to find a place in our side... from what I've seen of him he doesn't look like the type of player who can hold down FF or break a game open, something you'd hope your full forward could do, something I can see Kosi doing.

It's funny how 12 months ago we had an excess of KPF's and now we're almot bare, hopefully Allen turns into something special.

[CURLY]

What criteria does a player need to be rated good enough to be a premiership player?

.

Quite simple...they just have to play ina Premiership Team.....


...and there are some duds who have this distinction.....so it is no guarantee that they are a worthwhile player....but yes it is a very good indicator.

Then how could Lyon say we had 16 good enough then?

[ben_fff]

What criteria does a player need to be rated good enough to be a premiership player?

.

Quite simple...they just have to play ina Premiership Team.....


...and there are some duds who have this distinction.....so it is no guarantee that they are a worthwhile player....but yes it is a very good indicator.

Then how could Lyon say we had 16 good enough then?

Because he probably only sees 16 players that he'd like to have playing in a Grand Final side...

[Oh When the Saints]

And I reckon in his 20 years at AFL level, he would have picked up a few hints about what sort of blokes cut the mustard.

[Teflon]

McIntosh must have shown something plugger66. I'm sure the Roos have turned over a few ordinary players in the same tme. Nice pick up by them, good piece of recruiting.

Trying to look ahead, I don't think RL is finished. He may have capped the turnover at 10 for this year and possibly has his eyes fixed on a few more at the end of 2008. I'd say the players will be left in no doubt that he has a plan and the will to carry it out. Possibly the last chance for some name players?

I'm thinking the Clarkes and Goose - As players who, free from injuries, will have to build on the talent they've displayed (promised) in the past and become indispensable to our best 22 and leaders.

Then there is Gwilt, Ferguson, Jones, Gardiner (M) and Rix - As players who if given a chance a chance really cannot afford to make a mistake.

Theoretically there could be another 6 to 10 next season and I don't even want to think about the great man's retirement.

Good post - agreed.

Lyon aint finished but the reality is some of these (non retirements) shouldve been assessed and weeded out earlier its what Mark Williams does very well.

Guys like Blake, Gwilt, Ferg, etc will need to step up this year and thats the message.......great to see.

[Little Dozer]

McIntosh must have shown something plugger66. I'm sure the Roos have turned over a few ordinary players in the same tme. Nice pick up by them, good piece of recruiting.

Trying to look ahead, I don't think RL is finished. He may have capped the turnover at 10 for this year and possibly has his eyes fixed on a few more at the end of 2008. I'd say the players will be left in no doubt that he has a plan and the will to carry it out. Possibly the last chance for some name players?

I'm thinking the Clarkes and Goose - As players who, free from injuries, will have to build on the talent they've displayed (promised) in the past and become indispensable to our best 22 and leaders.

Then there is Gwilt, Ferguson, Jones, Gardiner (M) and Rix - As players who if given a chance a chance really cannot afford to make a mistake.

Theoretically there could be another 6 to 10 next season and I don't even want to think about the great man's retirement.

Good post - agreed.

Lyon aint finished but the reality is some of these (non retirements) shouldve been assessed and weeded out earlier its what Mark Williams does very well.

Guys like Blake, Gwilt, Ferg, etc will need to step up this year and thats the message.......great to see.

Blake, Gwilt and Ferg aren't capable of stepping up. All Blake is capable of is trying to take Dale Thomas on and costing us the game against the filth.

[Spinner]

Everyone carries on about McIntosh.

In 2005, when they were playing finals, McIntosh was only selected once in the Roos side.

In 2006, when they were struggling down the bottom, it was a lot easier to give guys like McIntosh a few games at AFL level. Mandatory in fact. That kicked along his development.


Unfortunately when a club is reasonably successful over a few years (like the Saints), if your kids can't show something in their first 5-6 opportunities at AFL level, then they aren't likely to get too many more goes at it.

When the club is down the bottom, you will be given heaps more opportunities - like McIntosh.

That's just the way it works. If you want us to play all these young kids all the time, and watch them develop, then we must finish 14th-16th.

Correct.

[Spinner]

Interesting that despite all the talk of a huge list makeover..most peoples Round 1 team has just 2 new players..plus Gardiner who's returing from injury..

Its the bottom half of the list thats been totally revamped..and Im very cool with that

Saints66au....I think it was the prospects of players such as Brooks, Watts and McQualter stepping up and joining this best 22 given senior opportunity, that has pissed so many people off.

Lets face it, no player 'develops' within the VFL system, what player has over recent time? Its a system where teammates are competing against themselves for senior call ups. Over the last few years, draftees have either been branded 'senior' or 'reserve' from their first at day at the club.....Players like Goddard played AFL games initially on reputation. While many other seems to be stuck within the lower system.

From memory St Kilda has not developed one player directly from the VFL seniors. Players like Gilbet wasn't staring but showed promise when given AFL opportunity.

[saintsRrising]

Mc Intosh would appear to have been on a steady improvement curve....with 43 games and is 9 months younger than Brooks....

1 in 2005...17 in 2006...25 in 2007

In addition for a genuine ruck role McIntosh has extra height which helps.....

Apart from attitude Brooks was simply not a good call for a No 1 ruck role.

He could have beena handy second ruck come forward....but with the talented and harder at it Kois on the list he was always going to play second fiddle to Kosi.

The reality is that GT recruited Brooks for a position already filled by Kosi = wasted TWO picks.

This gets back to the nub of why GT was hopeless at list management...he spouted best available player nonsense and completed ignored team position needs and recruiting players that we were short of.

Watts is the perfect example of GT's ineptness....why pick a big slow forward when we already had several better options for a key forward????

It was just down right incompetence.

Hamish McIntosh Name Barry Brooks
Kangaroos Team St Kilda Saints
43 Career Games 10
Murray Bushrangers Origin Grassy
September 4, 1984 Date of Birth December 24, 1983
23yr 1mth Age 23yr 10mth
203cm Height 198cm
107kg Weight 97kg
25 2007 Games 2
10.1 Kicks Per Game 3.5
5.6 Handballs Per Game 1.5
15.7 Disposals Per Game 5.0
4.4 Marks Per Game 2.0
0.5 Goals Per Game 0
0.4 Behinds Per Game 0
1.0 Tackles Per Game 1.0
18.5 Hitouts Per Game 1.5
1.1 Frees For Per Game 1.0
0.9 Frees Against Per Game 0

[Batnoe]

You are only as good as your worst player


As mentioned before, the players like Robert Thomson, Barnard, Moorcroft were all ok, and that is the worst they got.

If you have 38 good blokes on your team you will not lose

Hopefully you wont need them all and only play 30

[SaintWodonga]

We did need a broom... And Ross took some tought descions that had to be doen to move the club forward.

It is sad to see so many of our 1st round picks gone, for virtually nothing in return. Apart from a glimpse of Brooks & 3 goals in the last round of 2006.

However I would have kept Watts for 1 more year. Great to see you finally using the rookie system. How many players did miss out by not using rookies in previous years?

I thought Eddie maybe promoted.

[saintly]

watts and mcqualter I believe deserved more time.

there was a good arguement to give brooks more game time based on his magoos form.

I'm sure GT would agree with you.

That's how he liked to play the list (mis) management game.....give ALL players about 3 or 4 years minimum, then fiddle fuddle around and ditch them after 5 years of no results.

IMHFO Lyon is far better - he calls a spade a spade and is prepared to dump iffy players quickly.....with only 38 on your list, you can't afford to adopt a GT 1980's attitude to list management!

Luckily the Roos didnt do that with McIntosh.

mcintosh is a ruckman, ruckmen always take longer . so brooks got 4-5 years, still not much. the others have to show something by year 2. they didn't thats why raymond, mcqualter, sweeney etc are gawn.

[Teflon]

One thing Lyon wont do is wait 5 yrs to work whose got it and who dont and that slow ability to detect a "player" absolutely kills you IMO.

To me, Lyon understands footy in a purist, technical sense - he understands the attributes a player must have in the modern game......or hell turn em over till he gets what he wants. A man with a FOOTBALL plan - and thats what weve needed for a while now...

[Apu]

The reality is that GT recruited Brooks for a position already filled by Kosi = wasted TWO picks.

I agree that he turned out to be a terrible waste of picks but I am astounded that you continue to post that he was recruited as a forward when that is completely untrue. What are you basing this on? Your own opinion?

BB was drafted as our future ruckman and was only moved to other positions after he did his knee and lost his leap.

Here are the facts:

- BB was the U18 all Australian Ruckman
- The only other ruckman we had on our 2003 list were Capuano and Knobel.
- I watched all of his five games in his first year, and was actually present for the 3 home games. All of these games he played as a ruckman coming off the bench. He spent NO time forward.
- He did his knee in a RUCK contest.

And if thats not enough for you below are ALL the Stkilda hitout statistics for games in which he played in Barry Brooks' first year at StKilda. (courtesy of footywire.com). Brooks was ALWAYS in the top 2 until he did his knee.

Round 1, Saturday, 29th March 2003
Capuano 15
Brooks 4
Riewoldt 3
Maguire 2
Gehrig 1
Penny 1
Hayes 1


Round 2, Saturday, 5th April 2003
Riewoldt 6
Brooks 3
Capuano 3
Hamill 1
Koschitzke 1


Round 4, Monday, 21st April 2003
Koschitzke 14
Brooks 11
Riewoldt 7
Hamill 2
Penny 2
Hayes 1


Round 5, Sunday, 27th April 2003
Brooks 12
Koschitzke 5
Goddard 1
Hudgton 1
Penny 1
Moyle 1


Round 6, Sunday, 4th May 2003
(Brooks does his knee)
Koschitzke 5
Ball 2
Brooks 1
Penny 1
Powell 1