notice over the past few weeks how everton has drawn a line in the sand re duds & how refreshing it is to see...no rose coloured glasses,shoots straight from the hip..not only calls a spade a spade but more importantly calls a dud a dud
unlike gops (as long as you dont have to many) have a roll to play duds are a different kettle of fish
keep up the good work everton
applaud everton's stance on duds
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
Can't do it, mate. Spurs are a part of me, and for that reason I'm going to have to refuse.rogerwa wrote:bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
To be honest, I really don't think a simple sig would "offend" you that much but if it does, tough s***.
While we're having a good whinge about things as irrelevant as signatures though, imo starting a new thread to praise a member's stance on average players is sycophantic behaviour at its very best.
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True Blue Sainter
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no place for that crap on a real footy forum......rogerwa wrote:bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Aww, have a sook why don't ya!?stinger wrote:no place for that crap on a real footy forum......rogerwa wrote:bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
I'll make you a deal stinger, if you can somehow manage to change my sig for me, I promise to not put up another Spurs related picture on this forum again.
However, seeing as I was the bloke who taught you how to cut and paste only last year, I'm guessing you'll be there for a while.
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evertonfc
- Saintsational Legend
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First things first, Tony Hibbert is absolute tosh. Phil Jagielka is a classy RB in the making and has to be played there. Phil Neville is second choice, with Hibbert a distant third. Can't pass, average tackler and gets caught out of position.
As for the OP, thank you very much RWA. I don't post for the recognition, but like the filthy ego-driven mod that I am, I take it wherever I can get it
I'd like to think my stance is that no spot on the list should be wasted. The counter-argument seems to be that 'you can't have 42 superstars' - well, duh, of course you can't. But you can make every spot count.
I believe that every spot, including the rookie list, should be treasured - and there should be a plan for each player on that list.
I don't believe in wasting spots on players who've had their chance, or who clearly don't have what it takes to succeed.
I'm pretty fierce on the duds. Sometimes even a little callous. But let's face it - duds rarely come good (Sam Fisher is the only exception who springs to mind), or have a role to play.
List management is one of the key pillars to success, IMO. And managing your 30-42 best players is something we've neglected pretty badly in recent years. Not only have we lacked depth, but we've lacked the ability to produce new talent.
My thoughts on RL is that he's done quite a good job with managing our list. Retirements and injuries have hamstrung him quite badly, but he gets a 7/10 for me.
An example of where I disagree with him, as most of you would know, is that I've been extremely dissapointed with the delisting of Fergus Watts against, for example, the retention of Matthew Ferguson.
We're certainly not short on running defenders who are capable of playing his role. We even just picked one up (Dempster) who puts Ferguson even further back in the pecking order. Gilbert is now well ahead of him; full pre-seasons behind R Clarke and L Fisher would keep them ahead of him, let alone considering the improvement left in Gram and S Fisher. Having shown very little at AFL level since being drafted, why has he been retained on the list after so many years (was even delisted and re-drafted last year - surely a sign of his progress)?
Conversely with Watts - we're extremely light on for KPP forwards after losing Fraser Gehrig. We've got two: Riewoldt and Koschitzke. Both have missed extended periods of footy in recent years due to injury, particuarly Koschitzke.
He showed some promising VFL form towards the end of the year, looked to be fighting off injuries - and who knows how he would have been with a full pre-season under his belt? He was a first round pick who'd shown big potential in the VFL and SANFL. We gave up a first round pick for him 24 months ago. And now we're delisting him at the same time as Fraser Gehrig - the bloke he was meant to replace - walks into retirement?
To me, that's an example of not getting the best value out of our 42. We could lose two-three running defenders this year, and still Ferguson would be unlikely to figure all that much. However, we lose Kosi or Roo, and suddenly we look very thin - we'd probably have to throw Charlie Gardiner (a flanker) or Jarryd Allen (truly untested) into the mix? How exposed do we look?
Anyway, I hope that illustrates my POV on this matter. I love that RL has addressed the need for a goal-kicking midfielder (Schneider) and has secured a ruckman (King) during trade week. Our first 22 looks terrific on paper if everyone plays to their strengths. Weaknesses are few and far between.
Our depth is still a big gripe for mine, and several players we're developing still have serious question marks lingering over them. I hope some can take off the blinkers and call it how they see it, rather than just pump up everyone Nick Stone-style, just because they play for the Saints.
But get excited about Schneider. He'll be pretty special, I reckon.
See, healthy criticism and justified optimism is a good mix
Cheers again RF.
Go Saints.
As for the OP, thank you very much RWA. I don't post for the recognition, but like the filthy ego-driven mod that I am, I take it wherever I can get it
I'd like to think my stance is that no spot on the list should be wasted. The counter-argument seems to be that 'you can't have 42 superstars' - well, duh, of course you can't. But you can make every spot count.
I believe that every spot, including the rookie list, should be treasured - and there should be a plan for each player on that list.
I don't believe in wasting spots on players who've had their chance, or who clearly don't have what it takes to succeed.
I'm pretty fierce on the duds. Sometimes even a little callous. But let's face it - duds rarely come good (Sam Fisher is the only exception who springs to mind), or have a role to play.
List management is one of the key pillars to success, IMO. And managing your 30-42 best players is something we've neglected pretty badly in recent years. Not only have we lacked depth, but we've lacked the ability to produce new talent.
My thoughts on RL is that he's done quite a good job with managing our list. Retirements and injuries have hamstrung him quite badly, but he gets a 7/10 for me.
An example of where I disagree with him, as most of you would know, is that I've been extremely dissapointed with the delisting of Fergus Watts against, for example, the retention of Matthew Ferguson.
We're certainly not short on running defenders who are capable of playing his role. We even just picked one up (Dempster) who puts Ferguson even further back in the pecking order. Gilbert is now well ahead of him; full pre-seasons behind R Clarke and L Fisher would keep them ahead of him, let alone considering the improvement left in Gram and S Fisher. Having shown very little at AFL level since being drafted, why has he been retained on the list after so many years (was even delisted and re-drafted last year - surely a sign of his progress)?
Conversely with Watts - we're extremely light on for KPP forwards after losing Fraser Gehrig. We've got two: Riewoldt and Koschitzke. Both have missed extended periods of footy in recent years due to injury, particuarly Koschitzke.
He showed some promising VFL form towards the end of the year, looked to be fighting off injuries - and who knows how he would have been with a full pre-season under his belt? He was a first round pick who'd shown big potential in the VFL and SANFL. We gave up a first round pick for him 24 months ago. And now we're delisting him at the same time as Fraser Gehrig - the bloke he was meant to replace - walks into retirement?
To me, that's an example of not getting the best value out of our 42. We could lose two-three running defenders this year, and still Ferguson would be unlikely to figure all that much. However, we lose Kosi or Roo, and suddenly we look very thin - we'd probably have to throw Charlie Gardiner (a flanker) or Jarryd Allen (truly untested) into the mix? How exposed do we look?
Anyway, I hope that illustrates my POV on this matter. I love that RL has addressed the need for a goal-kicking midfielder (Schneider) and has secured a ruckman (King) during trade week. Our first 22 looks terrific on paper if everyone plays to their strengths. Weaknesses are few and far between.
Our depth is still a big gripe for mine, and several players we're developing still have serious question marks lingering over them. I hope some can take off the blinkers and call it how they see it, rather than just pump up everyone Nick Stone-style, just because they play for the Saints.
But get excited about Schneider. He'll be pretty special, I reckon.
See, healthy criticism and justified optimism is a good mix
Cheers again RF.
Go Saints.
Last edited by evertonfc on Mon 29 Oct 2007 5:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clueless and mediocre petty tyrant.
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Ghost Like
- Saintsational Legend
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I appreciate what you say Everton and can understand your sentiment however there are times that I get the impression St Kilda's top 10 is so much better than another clubs top 10 but we come back to the field when we compare our bottom 10 and another club's bottom 10.
It is here I believe we can make a little ground when we pick up another club's reject. I'm essentially referring to Freo here, take the examples of Dunn and Collard who I rate as better than Sweeney and Raymond. Those two are both young, high draft picks and for whatever reasons were not deemed good enough for Freo. These reasons may not apply at the Saints and they may excel. They were possibly victims of Freo's over rating of their best 22.
At any rate in a year of a supposedly poor draft, two players of their ability and ilk may prove a bonus over an under developed kid straight out of the TAC. This kind of turnover is good for the club, a regeneration if you like of dead wood, culminating in a hidden gem.
The AFL is littered with rejects who have made good, we just need to find them amongst rejects who will always be rejected.
It is here I believe we can make a little ground when we pick up another club's reject. I'm essentially referring to Freo here, take the examples of Dunn and Collard who I rate as better than Sweeney and Raymond. Those two are both young, high draft picks and for whatever reasons were not deemed good enough for Freo. These reasons may not apply at the Saints and they may excel. They were possibly victims of Freo's over rating of their best 22.
At any rate in a year of a supposedly poor draft, two players of their ability and ilk may prove a bonus over an under developed kid straight out of the TAC. This kind of turnover is good for the club, a regeneration if you like of dead wood, culminating in a hidden gem.
The AFL is littered with rejects who have made good, we just need to find them amongst rejects who will always be rejected.
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evertonfc
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That's not bad logic - I certainly don't disagree. Perhaps our top shelf gives us a little room to experiment with the factory floor.Ghost Like wrote:I appreciate what you say Everton and can understand your sentiment however there are times that I get the impression St Kilda's top 10 is so much better than another clubs top 10 but we come back to the field when we compare our bottom 10 and another club's bottom 10.
In fact, you seem to be distancing yourself from my opinion when in fact I belive we do have quite a few similarities.
I don't mind a 'little' bit of experimenting; experiments are good, when you get the chance. The key is to make them a calculated experiment = minimal risk for maximum return.
If you apply this logic, then it's not a wasted spot. Keeping with Gwilt, for example, hasn't been a wasted experiment, based on what he's shown. However, we can't keep him for 2009 if he doesn't fire at all in 2008. The risk will have run its race by then.
I'm all in for going for Dunn and Collard. They are a huge lift on Sweeney and Raymond. They both would require minimum outlay, but deliver a potentially maximum return.It is here I believe we can make a little ground when we pick up another club's reject. I'm essentially referring to Freo here, take the examples of Dunn and Collard who I rate as better than Sweeney and Raymond. Those two are both young, high draft picks and for whatever reasons were not deemed good enough for Freo. These reasons may not apply at the Saints and they may excel. They were possibly victims of Freo's over rating of their best 22.
That's making good use of your final two spots.
They both have massive upsides. Take Clinton Jones for example - he doesn't have a massive upside, and is probably never going to improve beyond his current level. If he does improve, it still probably won't be enough to force his way into our best 25, and even that's unlikely.
Dunn and Collard are different. Both could develop into top 15 and maybe even top 10 players if given a chance.
Therefore, same small risk (C Jones is a relatively small risk as is), but instead, the potential much bigger. That's making good use of your list.
Very true. I'm all for getting a few rejects - who've shown potential - and getting the best from them.The AFL is littered with rejects who have made good, we just need to find them amongst rejects who will always be rejected.
Bad use of our list would be getting more Luke Mullins-types and chucking them on our list to give them a go...
Good use would be getting perhaps two of Trotter, Faulkner, Pfieffer, Bradley, Collard and Dunn and seeing if we could extract their talent (shown at junior level) at the senior level.
We'd be getting them for minmum outlay, but each has a big, untapped and unrealised upside. Now surely that's something Clinton Jones doesn't have? We may never get any senior games out of both of them - you're dealing with the last spots on your list - but I'd rather gamble on somebody who *could* make the grade.
Likewise, I'm glad we went for Michael Gardiner over, say, Lachlan McKinnon. Both may never play another AFL game, but at least Gardiner could deliver us something substantial.
In making the most of all your spots, yes, of course you can't have all of them stars. Nor can you have one block of brilliant players and another block brilliant kids. But every player on that list should have a genuinely strong selling point. That selling point may well be that the player hasn't fufilled his potential - but that he has a lot of it.
I get frustrated in seeing blokes with little or no upside, who barely qualify as GOPs, who've been around the traps, still retain their spot on our list...what are they contributing? Even what they can potentially contribute is low.
And that's why I'm all for another rookie year for LVR (seems to be raw, but clearly has talent), and why I'd like to have a look at a few of those potential-packed juniors who haven't kicked on. So long as you keep the outlay low (maybe one rookie list, one senior list?), a gamble with a big potential return is fine.
In defence of Ross Lyon, his list changes over the past 12 months have been the reflection of a man who likes to make calculated gambles for minimum outlay.
Some of options have differed - I would have delisted C Jones and Ferguson, for example - but at least the price wasn't high. (Partially that's why I'm a little angry over Watts, too. We coughed up big on him and didn't really give him a chance, especially now we could need him).
But the moves for M Gardiner, Birss, King, Dempster, Attrd and Schneider have made barely a dent in terms of what we've given up - just pick 26 + 43 for that lot in real terms. That's an isolated example of good list management.
Apologies if I've gotten a little convoluted with all that...
I guess the crux of it is, a gamble is fine if the upside is there, and the price isn't too big (which is why I'm not too cut about losing Sweeney - he had big potential, and cost nothing). It hurts far more when you punt a decent pick or trade on a player (Ferguson, Howard, McQualter, Brooks) and they don't come up.
Hope that made sense.
Last edited by evertonfc on Mon 29 Oct 2007 5:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clueless and mediocre petty tyrant.
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sunsaint
- Saintsational Legend
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- Location: Queensland - Beautiful one day ... you know the rest
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Totally agree about the soccer sig, it is a blight on the great aussie game, and every time you post that photo, a child in Rwanda dies, the world temperature rises .25C, and Robert Harvey cries.OLB wrote:Aww, have a sook why don't ya!?stinger wrote:no place for that crap on a real footy forum......rogerwa wrote:bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
I'll make you a deal stinger, if you can somehow manage to change my sig for me, I promise to not put up another Spurs related picture on this forum again.
However, seeing as I was the bloke who taught you how to cut and paste only last year, I'm guessing you'll be there for a while.
DO the right thing OLB
Seeya
*************
*************
Now you're just being silly.sunsaint wrote:Totally agree about the soccer sig, it is a blight on the great aussie game, and every time you post that photo, a child in Rwanda dies, the world temperature rises .25C, and Robert Harvey cries.OLB wrote:Aww, have a sook why don't ya!?stinger wrote:no place for that crap on a real footy forum......rogerwa wrote:bally dont know who bloody hibbert is...the only hibbert i've heard of is a blokw who played for ess about 40 yrs ago
would much appreciate it if you could remove that soccer chyt from your sig..it offends me,nothing turns my stomach more than bloody soccer
after giving everton a wrap re his attitude to duds maybe he too can rid himself of his soccer chyt
I'll make you a deal stinger, if you can somehow manage to change my sig for me, I promise to not put up another Spurs related picture on this forum again.
However, seeing as I was the bloke who taught you how to cut and paste only last year, I'm guessing you'll be there for a while.
DO the right thing OLB
Agree, shouldn't be able to follow Arsenal because I haven't been to London.OLB wrote:Haha, you've gotta love the glory-hunters who've most probably never been to London let alone ever stepped foot in Highbury. That's why we call you pykie scum.
Which I have fwiw, been to 3 games which we drew 2 and won 1.
Silly post.
Hows top 4 going?
hahahahaha
you stupid f****** hacks
Goddard.
Top four is not going too well for us at the moment, not as well as it's going for "your" club which is filled with rapists, managed by a pedo and supported by new-fan glory-hunters like yourself. The Collingwood of the English Premier League.Sam23 wrote:Agree, shouldn't be able to follow Arsenal because I haven't been to London.OLB wrote:Haha, you've gotta love the glory-hunters who've most probably never been to London let alone ever stepped foot in Highbury. That's why we call you pykie scum.
Which I have fwiw, been to 3 games which we drew 2 and won 1.
Silly post.
Hows top 4 going?
hahahahaha
you stupid f****** hacks
No point being in the Champions League if you're just going to get bundled out like mugs every season, is there? Like against Barcelona in such a cruel way after leading for most of the game... must've been heartbreaking. You wouldn't remember that game though seeing as you're probably a 17 year old who's been a fan for like 6 months.
PM me and I can tell you all about it.
"Nayim from fifty, Belletti from two..."
*can tell you've never been to a game*
Can we please take rubbish soccer to the general forum where it belongs.OLB wrote:Top four is not going too well for us at the moment, not as well as it's going for "your" club which is filled with rapists, managed by a pedo and supported by new-fan glory-hunters like yourself. The Collingwood of the English Premier League.Sam23 wrote:Agree, shouldn't be able to follow Arsenal because I haven't been to London.OLB wrote:Haha, you've gotta love the glory-hunters who've most probably never been to London let alone ever stepped foot in Highbury. That's why we call you pykie scum.
Which I have fwiw, been to 3 games which we drew 2 and won 1.
Silly post.
Hows top 4 going?
hahahahaha
you stupid f****** hacks
No point being in the Champions League if you're just going to get bundled out like mugs every season, is there? Like against Barcelona in such a cruel way after leading for most of the game... must've been heartbreaking. You wouldn't remember that game though seeing as you're probably a 17 year old who's been a fan for like 6 months.
PM me and I can tell you all about it.
"Nayim from fifty, Belletti from two..."
*can tell you've never been to a game*
Do me a favour mate. In case you hadn't noticed, there's a 20-page thread floating around that has even less relevance to footy. The title of this thread is related to footy as are a couple of posts which is more than I can say for the other one.
I knew the original post was directed to evertonfc so I attempted a bit of humour knowing he would understand.
It was never about soccer until sam the new-fan decided to prove to us that he now has the ability to look up Premier League results. He initiated some banter which, naturally, I returned in kind. He's only just discovered the game so, in all his excitement, he got a little carried away. I apologise on his behalf.
You realise now that there's evil soccer talk in here, so in future it shouldn't be difficult for you to avoid clicking on the link that brought you here. It's really quite simple.
I knew the original post was directed to evertonfc so I attempted a bit of humour knowing he would understand.
It was never about soccer until sam the new-fan decided to prove to us that he now has the ability to look up Premier League results. He initiated some banter which, naturally, I returned in kind. He's only just discovered the game so, in all his excitement, he got a little carried away. I apologise on his behalf.
You realise now that there's evil soccer talk in here, so in future it shouldn't be difficult for you to avoid clicking on the link that brought you here. It's really quite simple.
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wildgoose
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Best day of my life Bjorn. Winning the ECL, probably one of the best in yours being a Spurs fan, still have that recording of Eto'o scoring the equaliser on my phone set as my ring tone, best thing you've sent me, haha.OLB wrote:Top four is not going too well for us at the moment, not as well as it's going for "your" club which is filled with rapists, managed by a pedo and supported by new-fan glory-hunters like yourself. The Collingwood of the English Premier League.Sam23 wrote:Agree, shouldn't be able to follow Arsenal because I haven't been to London.OLB wrote:Haha, you've gotta love the glory-hunters who've most probably never been to London let alone ever stepped foot in Highbury. That's why we call you pykie scum.
Which I have fwiw, been to 3 games which we drew 2 and won 1.
Silly post.
Hows top 4 going?
hahahahaha
you stupid f****** hacks
No point being in the Champions League if you're just going to get bundled out like mugs every season, is there? Like against Barcelona in such a cruel way after leading for most of the game... must've been heartbreaking. You wouldn't remember that game though seeing as you're probably a 17 year old who's been a fan for like 6 months.
PM me and I can tell you all about it.
"Nayim from fifty, Belletti from two..."
*can tell you've never been to a game*
And hack pup is out again, bowled without troubling the scorers.
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fonz_#15
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3804
- Joined: Tue 30 May 2006 7:34pm
- Location: the new home of the saints :)
nothing in the last 12 months has made me think soccer is rubbish when compared to afl..plugger66 wrote:Can we please take rubbish soccer to the general forum where it belongs.OLB wrote:Top four is not going too well for us at the moment, not as well as it's going for "your" club which is filled with rapists, managed by a pedo and supported by new-fan glory-hunters like yourself. The Collingwood of the English Premier League.Sam23 wrote:Agree, shouldn't be able to follow Arsenal because I haven't been to London.OLB wrote:Haha, you've gotta love the glory-hunters who've most probably never been to London let alone ever stepped foot in Highbury. That's why we call you pykie scum.
Which I have fwiw, been to 3 games which we drew 2 and won 1.
Silly post.
Hows top 4 going?
hahahahaha
you stupid f****** hacks
No point being in the Champions League if you're just going to get bundled out like mugs every season, is there? Like against Barcelona in such a cruel way after leading for most of the game... must've been heartbreaking. You wouldn't remember that game though seeing as you're probably a 17 year old who's been a fan for like 6 months.
PM me and I can tell you all about it.
"Nayim from fifty, Belletti from two..."
*can tell you've never been to a game*
lets have a look:
soccer:
tradition...check
rule changes....rare if ever
excitement.....far better than afl
football:
tradition...what tradition??
rule changes....where do i start?
excitement....kicking backwards, flooding???
i come from a family with an italian background, i however never gave 2 hoots about soccer.. i have always been an aussie rules fan, always will be, but have also developed a huge interest in soccer over the last 2-3 years after ignoring it from birth.
it is fabulous to watch, and only those who are ignorant choose to avoid the obvious threat it poses to our game at grassroots level.
i acknowledge that this s a football forum and i will not speak further about soccer on this forum, but rather in the general forum.
Robert Harvey- Simply the best