a goal-kicking forward line

[Jaz]

Well not saying that they arnt great players but Goddard, Dal and Harvey are certanly not goal kickers. We need genuine forward players, which is what i think everyone looks over in the draft. apart from talls the rest who get drafted are midfielders, they have played midfield all their life then they get shoved into a forward pocket and expected to know how to play there. Thats were i think we should with our last pick instead of getting a smokey from the bush (like we seem to do every year) we should draft a smart forward with who we can work on their fitness and whatever else they need to improve on.

[The_Dud]

i like some of the idea, but some are way off

it like the idea of playing Goddard forward next year, mainly because he'll be recovering from his knee reco and probably won't get back to 100% til 2009. But as a long term option, Goddard think he is best at and wants to play in the backline, so i don't think he'll be a forward

Dal would be wasted playing in the forward line. you don't play one of the best, and potentially THE best, midfielder in the forward pocket. we have other players who could do this job just as well, probably better

we need to keep the likes of Dal, Lenny, Harvs, Gram, Gilbert, X, Joey and Fiora in the midfield for most of the time, as to GET the ball down to the forward line

the delivery to the forward line is just as important as who is in the forward line, each doesn't work well without the other

i think having Roo, Kosi, and one of Brooks, Watts or Gardiner (depends who gets a game) rotating thru FF/CHF/Ruck(Kosi, Brooks, Gards) will be a good enough forward line, as long as the delivery is decent

and lastly, Kosi should be playing in the exact way Ottens did this year, rucking then resting up forward and kicking a few goals, because i think he will be able to do this much better than Ottens, as he has better around-the-ground skills and is a better mark

[ben_fff]

I think you're undervaluing Ottens a fair bit, his marking is probably on par with Kosi if not in front, his kicking is great and he has a monster body that'll trouble any opponent, not to mention he has a tank that lasts all game which makes his opponents alot more accountable.

I'd say if Kosi is to play as a ruckman then Ottens and Lade would be the archetype to what he should be aiming for me.

Personally I see Kosi as the opposite, a forward who can have stints in the ruck a bit like Loewe used to but with more time in the centre.

I don't see Gardiner rotating FF with Kosi, when has Gardiner ever proven himself as a forward? I think we'd be better off just hoping Gardiner might play again and break even against opposition as opposed to being some kind of rucking force.

[The_Dud]

yeah, but Ottens has a few years on Kosi, but i think a 100% fit Kosi would have the tank to match Ottens, and i still think his skills are better

i think most good ruckman need to be able to go forward and kick 1 or 2 goals while they're not in the ruck

we will regret letting go Hamill and Voss next year, especailly Voss, because i think he would have stayed if RL showed faith in him, he would have been perfect for a couple of goals a game as the 3rd forward option

[ben_fff]

yeah, but Ottens has a few years on Kosi, but i think a 100% fit Kosi would have the tank to match Ottens, and i still think his skills are better

i think most good ruckman need to be able to go forward and kick 1 or 2 goals while they're not in the ruck

we will regret letting go Hamill and Voss next year, especailly Voss, because i think he would have stayed if RL showed faith in him, he would have been perfect for a couple of goals a game as the 3rd forward option

I think Voss has struggled to do that over the last few seasons, I really doubt his impact if he stayed on and I'm glad he called it a day when he did, he was a solid player with all the courage in the world. Hamill has hurt us over the last 3 years, he's an important leader for us but his body isn't up for it and to be honest I think the game is moving on from those style players.

Something that has always bothered me is the trading away of Guerra, he displayed more than once what he was capable of and we traded him away at a young age, I would have though he'd deserve another season and I think he was good for Milne as our forward line was a bit more unpredictable.

[The_Dud]

i think when Voss was played in the forward he contributed lots, but he was played on and off the bench, then in the backline, and never got to put any decent amount of games together

IMO he still had what it takes to kick a few goals a game in the forward line in 2008, but we'll never know

Hamill still had what it takes, as shown by kicking 4 in the VFL, not even playing 3 quarters, in his first game for nearly a year. I know its only the VFL, but 4 goals after a year out, shows hes no hack. But injury didn't allow him to go on, so there was basically no choice

yes, i too found it weird to get rid of Guerra, i thought he added alot to the team, and could kick a few

[Ghost Like]

For what it's worth, here's my thoughts. Footy has obviously changed a bit, especially with structures so here's how I see the Saints lining up:

BACKS: Max, Sam, Goose, Raph

MIDS (all with defensive resposibilities): BJ, Gilbo, Dal, Harves, Lenny, Bally, Roo, Joey, Grammy

RUCK: Gardiner (Rix if G not fit or whoever we pick up in draft if we pick up anyone)

FORWARDS: X, Kosi, Milne, Watts (Brooks / Allen)

I/C: Bakes, Blake, Leigh Fisher, Fiora (Armitage / Geary)

I hope I've not forgotten anyone. Having said all that...BJ may not be a bad option as a leading forward (straight lines) especially coming back from his knee.

[bigcarl]

Footy has obviously changed a bit, especially with structures.

true, the trend recently has been to throw all your players on or behind the ball. but that is just a trend ... doesn't mean it is the only way to play.

one thing that has never and will never change is that to win a game of football you have to kick the highest score.

that's why i favour getting the guys who are capable of kicking goals closer to the goals ... the ability to convert opportunities to goals is what we lacked for a significant part of 2007

interesting stats in the herald sun today which showed us to have the second least efficient forward line in the competition in 2007 when it came to converting inside 50s to goals.

nowhere near good enough in a team that boasts considerable firepower and i can only point the finger at our game plan and structure

[Oh When the Saints]

interesting stats in the herald sun today which showed us to have the second least efficient forward line in the competition in 2007 when it came to converting inside 50s to goals.

nowhere near good enough in a team that boasts considerable firepower and i can only point the finger at our game plan and structure

We were ranked about 8th in that stat in 2006, and 16th in the first half of 2007.

In the second half of 2007, we moved up to 4th in that stat, and 3rd for least number of disposals per goal.

[bigcarl]

we really need to hit the ground running in 2008 and establish from the very outset that we are premiership material.

i've had it with this "peaking at the right time" bulls***.

imo you can't really control when you peak ... there are too many variables and factors such as injuries that come into play.

imo we should try to win every game in which we're involved and pick the best team available each week.

i wish we didn't have to play in the pre-season comp. but since we're in it. we should try to win it.

here's my round 1 team with a re-vamped goal-kicking forward line.

b: l. fisher, max, x. clarke
hb: r. clarke, goose, s. fisher.
c: gram, hayes, gilbert
hf: goddard, riewoldt, dal santo
f: milne, kosi, harvey
foll: gardiner, ball, montagna

inter: king, schneider, blake, fiora

i like gram and gilbert on the wings. both have a bit of dash and gram in particular can really roost it goalwards. we need more of our guys to back themselves to kick goals ... not just riewoldt.

dal and bj playing forward would be capable of kicking at least a couple each every week ... very important in a team that struggled to kick winning scores all of last season.

imo the one area, apart from fitness and confidence, in which we need vast improvement in 2008

[Armoooo]

I am of the belief that Dal is too valuble in the midfield to waste him on the forward flank, he was the only midfielder this year that could actually hit a forward target... I would rather our lineup looked like this:
FB: L.Fisher Hudghton Dampster
HB: S.Fisher Maguire Goddard
C: Montagna Dal Gram
HF: Gilbert Riewoldt X.Clarke
FF: Milne Koschitzke Schneider
R: Gardiner Hayes Ball
I/C: Birss Harvey King R.Clarke
However I would love it if Fiora could come good on his kicking and force Birss out of the side... IMO that looks like it is a top 4 worthy side, there is not a lot of weaknesses in that depth, the forward line is more than capable of kicking goals and the backline is solid as well as a nice mix of pace and grunt in the midfield, two ruckman of some quality (assuming they get on the park) and some nice depth with Fiora, Blake etc. and Baker and Attard still to come back.
But what I would really love to see is our pick 9, Armitage, Allen and Howard all have a massive pre-season and really put some pressure on the starting 22.

[bigcarl]

I am of the belief that Dal is too valuble in the midfield to waste him on the forward flank.

would three or four extra goals every week really be a waste? guess you could say kosi's too valuable in the ruck to play at ff.

it's an interesting one and you can argue it either way.

all i'm saying is that our ability to put a score on the board is what let us down more than anything in 2007 and the stats for the season as a whole show it.

part of my fix would be to put our best goal-kicking players within goal-kicking range as often as possible.

yes, i know you have to get it down there ... but you also have to finish off the job.

no co-incidence imo that the two teams who played off in the grand final were also statistically the best at turning inside 50s into goals over the season

[Armoooo]

I am of the belief that Dal is too valuble in the midfield to waste him on the forward flank.

would three or four extra goals every week really be a waste? guess you could say kosi's too valuable in the ruck to play at ff.

it's an interesting one and you can argue it either way.

all i'm saying is that our ability to put a score on the board is what let us down more than anything in 2007 and the stats for the season as a whole show it.

part of my fix would be to put our best goal-kicking players within goal-kicking range as often as possible.

yes, i know you have to get it down there ... but you also have to finish off the job.

I understand what you are saying but personally I don't believe that Dal would be up for it as a forward, I could see him kicking 1 maybe 2 goals every week but I think that he is more valuable in the midfield where he can set up 5 or 6 and maybe even kick one himself.

As for Kosi I think he was being wasted in the ruck, I thought he was it his best in those 1st quarters vs Richmond and West Coast, that gave me really optimism for his future, I just hope he can really work on his fitness.

[bigcarl]

I understand what you are saying but personally I don't believe that Dal would be up for it as a forward, I could see him kicking 1 maybe 2 goals every week.

i respect what you are saying, too, but i think you're under-rating dal's potential value as a forward flanker.

he started kicking a few real clinch goals in the second half of last season ... including a match-winner against the eagles in perth ... and a few other team-lifters.

just seemed to have found a happy knack for kicking important goals.

a compromise might be to rest him, ball and montagna forward rather than benching them.

then again the highly dubious "numbers behind the ball" game plan means that often no-one on the field really gets a rest.

[Oh When the Saints]

Why is putting numbers behind the ball dubious? It won Geelong a flag.


Using Dal in the forward-line is ... like being able to spend 24 hours with Jennifer Hawkins and taking her to Luna Park.

Sure, it might go okay ... but what a waste of talent and opportunity.


The game is won and lost in the middle ... taking your best midfielder out of the middle is a huge win for the opposition.

Good midfield > good forwardline IMO.

[bigcarl]

Why is putting numbers behind the ball dubious? It won Geelong a flag.

really? I thought it was their ability to turn inside 50s into goals ... an area in which we failed badly last season

[Oh When the Saints]

I disagree with you - twice in the GF Steve Johnson marked the ball at full-back ... you tell me that's not putting numbers behind the ball.

Anyway - that's another topic for another day.

Using Dal in the forward-line is ... like being able to spend 24 hours with Jennifer Hawkins and taking her to Luna Park.

Sure, it might go okay ... but what a waste of talent and opportunity.

[bigcarl]

that's okay, we can agree to disagree. was getting a little boring around here so i decided to bump this thread. it's a good topic

btw, i like the jennifer hawkins analogy. here's another one. would you like to do all the hard work with her or actually put a score on the board? kick a goal, as it were.

[Armoooo]

I wouldn't mind seeing Gilbert play the role that you are hoping for, he can kick a goal and he brings a lot of forward pressure something that Dal lacks.

[bigcarl]

a half-forward line that reads

BJ, Riewoldt, Gilbert

looks okay to me. means we'd have three valid marking and goal-kicking options there rather than just the one.

i'm all for playing our best and most skilled players in the positions in which they can do the most damage ... read impact on the scoreboard.

[Broodruff]

I dont think giving Dal some time up front is a such a bad idea, but I agree with OWTS, leaving him there for all 4 quarters is a waste. His ability to find space and weave his way through, and out of packs, benifits us more than having someone up close to the sticks who can weave a bit of magic.
When you've got someone with Dal's skills and delivery, all you need is someone sitting there to grab the ball and kick it straight.

I also agree with all those suggesting to push Goddard up forward: Its a really hard call to make, because this kid is magic and will influence the game regardless of where he plays (backup ruck )
Throwing Goddard forward would really bump our forward line pressure up a notch or two, which is something that (correct me if I'm wrong) was really missing from our footy this year.

The idea of resting some of our mids in the forward pockets isn't a bad idea, and, as bigcarl has been suggesting, we will have some of our cleanest, classy players close to the big sticks.

Kosi and Roo are obvious FF and CHF

C: Montagna Dal Gram
HF: Goddard Riewoldt Gilbert
FF: Milne Koschitzke Schnider/Resting Mid

Go easy. I like to think I know a lot about the game, when in reality, I know jack..... you know the rest.

As far as I know, Schnider will be adequate in the midfield while Montagna Dal or Gram have a spell in the pocket.

Kosi who can plant his feet and take a good contested mark, but is agile enough to move around and present a good target.
Riewoldt: nothing need be said
Milne, with the help of Schnider or a star midfeilder for the defence to worry about should be able to get back to his brilliant and destructive best
Goddard to step up and play a role like Hammil, hard-nut forward who puts in the 1% and keeps the ball in the forward 50
Gilbo who has the ability to kick it long or clumsily, but effectivley take a run foward and slot it from point blank, also has the ability to lay beautiful tackles, keeping the ball in our 50

</thinking I know everything about the game>
Thoughts?

[bigcarl]

good post, Broodruff. you should contribute more often.

[Armoooo]

C: Montagna Dal Gram
HF: Goddard Riewoldt Gilbert
FF: Milne Koschitzke Schnider/Resting Mid

That is pretty much what I would like to see, probably would rather Goddard in the backline but I would be more than happy to have that lineup...

[bigcarl]

C: Montagna Dal Gram
HF: Goddard Riewoldt Gilbert
FF: Milne Koschitzke Schnider/Resting Mid

That is pretty much what I would like to see, probably would rather Goddard in the backline but I would be more than happy to have that lineup...

i could live with that. very strong half-forward line and with a set up like that there'd be no danger of roo trying to do it all himself

[Oh When the Saints]

Sensational post Broodruff. You've leap-frogged 99% of posters already with your football knowledge

I agree with many of your thoughts.


I'd rather Dal kicked goals from the midfield though - I reckon resting Lenny/Ball/Joey up forward is more effective, as they add the forward pressure that is important.