a goal-kicking forward line

[bigcarl]

we fell down badly in 2007 in not being able to kick winning scores

imo this was partly because of RL's dubious "numbers behind the ball" philosophy/game plan, which, in effect means that we didn't really have permanent forwards save for fraser.

i'd like a return to a more traditional set-up in which we have a forward line that is capable of turning opportunities to goals.

i'd set up something like this:

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Dal
F: Milne, Kosi, Schneider

some will say we'd be robbing peter to pay paul by throwing resources forward like that; dal's too important on the ball; kosi can't play ff, we need him around the ground etc, etc.

but consider this: you can't win football matches if you can't put a score on the board.

i like the look of the wings here. gram and gilbert both get plenty of the ball and would be continually launching goalwards with long, direct kicks

thoughts anyone

[SaintBot]

Midfielders who can kick long goals: Gram, Gilbert, Dal Santo, Goddard.

Good to see all of them on the attacking side of the ground in your team above.

It all depends on who can play ruck, and hoping our midfield will remain injury free

[Oh When the Saints]

Agree that in the first half of the year we had major issues in this area.

But in the second half of the year we were #3 for scoring shots per inside 50m, and #3 for least disposals per scoring shot.

Something started to work.


But I also agree that we need more half-forwards, and I have always liked the idea of resting a midfielder - i.e Dal/Ball - on the HF line.

I think it was against Hawthorn that Ball was played as a HF the whole game and he kicked 3 goals.

[Solar]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

[Animal Enclosure]

Picking up a player like Ben McKinley would help as well.

I like the idea of BJ up forward and am 120% behind the "Get Gram in the Midfield' movement.

[bigcarl]

Agree that in the first half of the year we had major issues in this area.

But in the second half of the year we were #3 for scoring shots per inside 50m, and #3 for least disposals per scoring shot.

Something started to work.


But I also agree that we need more half-forwards, and I have always liked the idea of resting a midfielder - i.e Dal/Ball - on the HF line.

I think it was against Hawthorn that Ball was played as a HF the whole game and he kicked 3 goals.

yep i agree that we improved in the second half of the year in this area. perhaps the message got through to RL about the crucial importance of fast delivery of the ball forward rather than chipping it around.

but i think we can be better still if we have goal-kicking players nearer the goal. the ability to convert opportunities to goals is what separates good teams from also-rans.

just out of interest, which two teams outperformed us in scoring shots per inside 50m and disposals per scoring shot in the second half of the season?

[plugger66]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

[Oh When the Saints]

just out of interest, which two teams outperformed us in scoring shots per inside 50m and disposals per scoring shot in the second half of the season?

The two grand finalists, Port and Cats.

[bigcarl]

just out of interest, which two teams outperformed us in scoring shots per inside 50m and disposals per scoring shot in the second half of the season?

The two grand finalists, Port and Cats.

i rest my case

[Oh When the Saints]

At least we're close

[bigcarl]

At least we're close

yes. that's encouraging. imo we have the goal-kicking talent to be No. 1 in those areas in 2008.

[Solar]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

I am more suggesting that this is the TYPE of player.

Watts could be replaced by kosi if we a couple of ruckman stand up for us. A ferguson or similar could play that lead up role, but personally I don't see any reason for allen not to get some game time next year, barring injury.

BTW it's important to note that we have lost our full forward, specialist half forward and back up half forward (gehrig, hamill and voss) to retirements plus we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

[bigcarl]

we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

let's hope gardiner comes up and we can find another serviceable ruck somewhere to allow kosi to play ff. we won't be winning many games if we can't kick winning scores.

[plugger66]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

I am more suggesting that this is the TYPE of player.

Watts could be replaced by kosi if we a couple of ruckman stand up for us. A ferguson or similar could play that lead up role, but personally I don't see any reason for allen not to get some game time next year, barring injury.

BTW it's important to note that we have lost our full forward, specialist half forward and back up half forward (gehrig, hamill and voss) to retirements plus we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

We have actually lost only our FF from last season. The other 2 didnt contribute so we only have to fing one replacement which hopefully will be Kosi at CHF and Roo as a fast leading FF.

[Solar]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

I am more suggesting that this is the TYPE of player.

Watts could be replaced by kosi if we a couple of ruckman stand up for us. A ferguson or similar could play that lead up role, but personally I don't see any reason for allen not to get some game time next year, barring injury.

BTW it's important to note that we have lost our full forward, specialist half forward and back up half forward (gehrig, hamill and voss) to retirements plus we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

We have actually lost only our FF from last season. The other 2 didnt contribute so we only have to fing one replacement which hopefully will be Kosi at CHF and Roo as a fast leading FF.

who's rucking? please don't say rix

Plus that reeks of the G&ROO game we have seen over the past few years. Look at Geelong at collingwood. You need 3 talls as targets these days with back up from your rucks.

Geelong
N.Ablett/hawkins
Mooney

Collingwood
rusling
rocca
cloke

[Armoooo]

I wouldn't mind seeing Roo as a fast leading FF rather than a fast leading CHF. Hopefully with some luck with injuries our midfield will be bale to get the ball into the forward line without him having to go and do it himself, and htis way when he leads for a mark he will be 40m out instead of 65m.
The other good thing is that Kosi is the sort of player that can take a mark while staying on the one spot, add Milney crumming and hopefully a Goddard or a Watts there as a third option we have a very capable forward line. As for our rucks, if Gardiner comes good that is a huge bonus because IMO Blake is good enough to be back up ruckman. Because realistically Kosi would be doing all the ruckwork in the forward line so Gardiner would only have to go around half the ground...

[plugger66]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

I am more suggesting that this is the TYPE of player.

Watts could be replaced by kosi if we a couple of ruckman stand up for us. A ferguson or similar could play that lead up role, but personally I don't see any reason for allen not to get some game time next year, barring injury.

BTW it's important to note that we have lost our full forward, specialist half forward and back up half forward (gehrig, hamill and voss) to retirements plus we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

We have actually lost only our FF from last season. The other 2 didnt contribute so we only have to fing one replacement which hopefully will be Kosi at CHF and Roo as a fast leading FF.

who's rucking? please don't say rix

Plus that reeks of the G&ROO game we have seen over the past few years. Look at Geelong at collingwood. You need 3 talls as targets these days with back up from your rucks.

Geelong
N.Ablett/hawkins
Mooney

Collingwood
rusling
rocca
cloke

Geelong only had 2. Port had 2. Pies have 2 Rusling is a smaller leading forward. Roos have 1 or 2. They were top four this season.

As for rucking I would think we will trade for a ruckman or Gardiner will come good.

[Solar]

This is just my opinion but our game plan should revolve around

Goddard X (HFF's)
Roo (CHF)
milne Allen (leading deep forwards)
Watts (deep forward)

The two floating HFF's need to work back hard to half back, helping out the midfielders and need to have the ability to run with the ball. Almost like the wing backs in rugby or soccer.

Roo just does what he does, he is the ultimate CHF in the modern game. When he has it 70 out he needs to look up and see the likes of a allen leading towards him or the deeper option of watts/kosi/brooks on the deep fat side.

I know it's not traditional but would suit our needs and kick winning goals, but it would also be dependent on the midfielders working hard both ways, just the way lyon likes it

I think we are trouble if both Allen and Watts are in our starting forward line early in the year. No experience at all. One may be ok but 2, I doubt it.

I am more suggesting that this is the TYPE of player.

Watts could be replaced by kosi if we a couple of ruckman stand up for us. A ferguson or similar could play that lead up role, but personally I don't see any reason for allen not to get some game time next year, barring injury.

BTW it's important to note that we have lost our full forward, specialist half forward and back up half forward (gehrig, hamill and voss) to retirements plus we don't have the luxury of playing kosi forward.

We have actually lost only our FF from last season. The other 2 didnt contribute so we only have to fing one replacement which hopefully will be Kosi at CHF and Roo as a fast leading FF.

who's rucking? please don't say rix

Plus that reeks of the G&ROO game we have seen over the past few years. Look at Geelong at collingwood. You need 3 talls as targets these days with back up from your rucks.

Geelong
N.Ablett/hawkins
Mooney

Collingwood
rusling
rocca
cloke

Geelong only had 2. Port had 2. Pies have 2 Rusling is a smaller leading forward. Roos have 1 or 2. They were top four this season.

As for rucking I would think we will trade for a ruckman or Gardiner will come good.

geelong and port both have rucks that were able to go forward. I don't think that we can afford not to have kosi in the ruck.

Anyway the theory is still the same, even if it was an ebert or chapman type.

[bigcarl]

IMO Blake is good enough to be back up ruckman

i agree. vastly underrated in this role and far superior to a guy like rix who MIGHT win a few tap outs but tends to contribute very little around the ground.

blake tends to bring the other midfielders into the game more and almost plays as an extra mid once the ball has been bounced.

[Carl Mynott]

who's rucking? please don't say rix

Plus that reeks of the G&ROO game we have seen over the past few years. Look at Geelong at collingwood. You need 3 talls as targets these days with back up from your rucks.



Collingwood
rusling
rocca
cloke

Collingwood needs 3 tall forwards because Rocca goes missing most of the time,really only leaving them with 2,Rocca does attract a good player,i'll give him that.....

[bigcarl]

I don't think that we can afford not to have kosi in the ruck.

it's sort of a chicken and egg argument, isn't it? can we afford not to have him at ff or chf?

for what it is worth i don't think kosi is a great tap ruckman anyway, though he's more than useful around the ground. it saddens me to think that a potentially great key forward is being used up for hack work in the middle with knees going into him etc.

john kennedy senior used to say he'd play his best players forward because the team that kicked the highest score would win the game, and yes, he knew you had to get the ball down to them.

imo the stats in this post about geelong and port say a lot about the importance of converting opportunities to goals

[Megamaguire]

Brendan and Dally are both capable of kicking more goals but both are also very capable of commanding plenty of play from deeper in defence and down back.If Maguire gets back to his best and Gilbert keeps truckin beautifully then we might indeed see Goddard or a resting Dally on the HFF. I hope we get a real cracking midfielder or even genuine goal kicker like a rioli coming through - we have to keep working as a team at relieving Roo and sharing the load more up front.

It's hard to prioritise but i did appreciate the comments (sorry forgot from who) that reminded us that if the best midfielders have all been grabbed by pick 9 then we may be much better going for a big KPP for down back if available. Fingers crossed the club plays it pretty straight and veres towards genuine talent.

G O S A I N T S !

If Geelong can then the SAINTERS CAN!

[Armoooo]

Goddard on the forward flank with Harvey/Montagna/Ball/Dal rotating on the other, Kosi CHF occasionally roaming the midfield with Roo at FF, Milne + X forward pocket feeding off the crumbs, that is a pretty solid forward line IMO, another wuality player would be very handy, Hopefully Watts can become the next Goddard/S.Fisher/Gram/Montagna/Gilbert etc.

[spert]

I would put DalS in a forward pocket where he can weave a bit of magic in a tight place a la Daicos, he would attract the oppositions better defenders which may help the half forwards..could be the icing on the cake..I reckon he could regularly kick 2- 4 goals which means upwards of 40 goals a year. Goddard should be groomed as FF. He is a great kick and can take a good grab and is still mobile.

[bigcarl]

this search function is great ... bump

(riewoldt as) a star CHF is more useful than a gun wingman. Kosi can't be relied on to hold down CHF. He doesn't have the engine and isn't all that durable.

Playing at CHF riewoldt might average 18 disposals, 10 marks (several contested), 3 goals and 3 goal assists.

since we tend to direct nearly every attack at riewoldt you'd expect him to rack up quite a few touches

we actually almost need him to perform at least that well every week for us to be any sort of a chance

imo one of our greatest strengths ... riewoldt ... is also a glaring weakness, often exploited by opponents, and we have become, at times, pathetically reliant on him.

it still counts as a goal to st kilda even if roo doesn't kick it

we need a much more even spread of goal-kicking options and, imo, kosi playing as a permanent forward is just a start.

i probably don't need to remind you that we were 14th in the league for converting inside 50s to goals last year and had just three guys who kicked more than 30 for the season.

geelong were first and had five.

i do agree with you, however, that roo should stay a forward rather than a winger, even though he'd be very, very good in that position.

the challenge is to fit roo, fraser and kosi into the same forward line.

all are top players and team-minded and there has to be a way for this to translate to more goals for st kilda and a forward line that is more efficient at turning opportunities into goals

that's my rant