Very interesting read - the Hawthorn recruiting manager

[Oh When the Saints]

This is someone's rough notes from a Hawthorn FC dinner, with the CEO and recruiting manager in attendance.

A lot about Hawthorn, but some interesting information about lists and player types.

Shows what a specialty recruiting has become.

-------------------------------

Evening started with Ian Robson welcoming everyone. Main points from him are that club is targetting 35000 members in 08 and 50 by 2011,. We have a very strong balance sheet and promoted the value of the Tasmania relationship.

Chris Pelchin then got up and spoke for about an hour and a quarter and kept the masses (about 50 people) spellbound.

Introduced us to the fact that when he worked at the club from 88-95 when there was a great culture. That had disappeared when he returned in 2005. He started with a few simple stats showing that we are the youngest list. Matches played we average 48.1 (total games of 2116) compared to Fremantle 76.5 (tg 3364). Geelong had an average of 55.8 (tg 2456). He noted that none of the top 5 (Freo, Mel, St k, WB and Ess) played finals.

He then proceeded to explain how they evaluate. Every AFL player on every list are rated as follows:
1 - Elite player (outstanding player of the AFL)
2 - Highly talented (very good player)
3 - Core player (likely to play mostly senior footy)
4 A - improving player but not yet at AFL standard eg a well performed 1st yr draftee that hasn't played senior footy
4 B - A below std player or declining or aging player.
5 - developing player eg rookie

in 2005 he rated our list as only having 2*1's and 4*2's. He thought we had 8 in the 4B category.

In 2007 mid season he rated our list as follows:
1 2 3 4A 4B 5
3 5 20 4 2 6

He rated Geelong's list as follows
5 6 20 4 1 3

His average talent ratings were as follows (lower the number the better):
Hawks 3.12 vs Geelong 2.87 vs WCE 2.97 vs Carlton 3.38

He rated the Saints to have the most talented list in 05 and 06 and said their window is now closed. He then rated the premiership teams from 05 and 06. He rated them as follows:
1 2 3 4A 4B 5
WCE 06 4 7 10 0 1 0
Syd 05 2 8 12 0 0 0

The averages of premiers since he has been keeping records were as follows:
4.6 8.2 8.4 .6 .2 0

He then also stated that he thought the Bris 01-04 lists were better than Geelongs but they were able to obtain this through players sacrificing the money for the team.

He then went on and spoke about how poor our kicking efficiency was when he arrived in 05 (76.2% rank 16th). This combined with our low average height and weight meant we needed a list overhaul. In 2007 we were in the top 4.

Our drafting and trading has been to address the kicking efficiency and size of the squad.

Our other issue was our TPP in 05. We were paying 24.9% of our salary to players ranked 4 compared to Brisbane who were paying 8.1% to their 4's. Our average player payment to the 4's was 137000 compared to Brisbanes 72000. In 2007 our 4's are receiving only 5.9% of TPP.

In 2005, he rated only 10 players (Roughead, Ladson, Brown, Mitchell, Franklin, Williams, Croad, Hodge and Lewis - I missed one sorry) as being capable of playing in our next premiership. This list has obviously changed since then.

Key targets of our recruiting where then discussed with a view to fielding a side on mainly 1's, 2's and 3's with the spine being mainly 1's. He has specifically targetted the deficiencies that he identified in 05 and stressed that we are not finished yet. I did get the impression though that this year we will be more selective in targetting specific positions rather than the best available. Did not mention which type we still required (eg crumber).

He concluded by saying that all players recruited must fit the following criteria which brought us back to the culture issue which he started off with.

1 Character - intelligence, leadership, and a team first attitude;
2 kicking - must be rated at least good or better; and
3 competitiveness - must have a high level of determination.

Not as much opportunity for questions this year but I will summarise as best as possible.

Q Injury to Willo? A similar injury to Rob Campbell and rehab is going well (avoided answering when he will be available)

Q Progress of the 4A type players ( Beaus, Collins, etc) A. Muston will debut in first month, Bailey and Renouf will debut in 2008. Expect about 5 debuts next year. Said that Renouf and Bailey will replace Campbell and Taylor within 2 years. Highly rates Bailey in particular and along with Ellis will be a future leader. Mentioned club will have 5 ruckman - does this mean McEntee will be elevated? Also very excited about Morton and expected him to debut next year.

Most interesting was Pelchin about Dowler and he said he had a long way to go and was probably a bit immature. He needs to develop agression and Thorp would go past him. "If Dowler had 10% of Thorp's agression and arrogance he would be a good player". Mentioned that Ellis was a walk up to take Smith's spot at half back.


Q Whats happening with rookie list A. being reviewed at the moment no decisions made yet.

Q how many picks? 5 at least. 2 more to be delisted maybe 3. Doesn't expect these players to be of any trade value. Maybe expect an announcement sooner than later on these.

Q how does club deal with interstate players and go home factor? We target what appeals to them. Said at this time that Bailey has purchased a house in Melb and is not going anywhere.

Q top 5 picks

1 Kruezer
2 Cotchin
3 Morton
4 McEvoy
5 Myers

Q Box Hill? Will retain alliance but coach will now be paid by Hawks. Also appointing a Pelchin type person to control recruiting for Box Hill listed players to fill the deficiencies.

Other random stuff:

Gilham is the No 1 rated fullback for kicking efficiency.

Clinton Young has a heap of improvement in him and will be better next year.

Joel Selwood was never going to be picked by us. Knee problem is similar to Coghlans at Richmond. Deemed to be to big of a risk.

Hawks will try to address the free kicks against problem over the summer without compromising the agression.

Collingwood, WCE, Geel and hawks to be main contenders over next few years with our key window between 2010-2013.

Sorry there wasn't the opportunity to ask as many questions as last year. More people in attendence and Pelchin's great overview took most of the time.

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Source: link here and thankyou to brookers#5

[Oh When the Saints]

He started with a few simple stats showing that we are the youngest list. Matches played we average 48.1 (total games of 2116) compared to Fremantle 76.5 (tg 3364). Geelong had an average of 55.8 (tg 2456). He noted that none of the top 5 (Freo, Mel, St k, WB and Ess) played finals.

Interesting.

St Kilda lose a combined total of 1094 matches experience at the end of 2007.

At the start of 2007, our list had played 3678 games. That's an average of 96.79
At the start of 2008, our list has played 2584 games. That's an average of 68.00

He rated the Saints to have the most talented list in 05 and 06 and said their window is now closed.

Are we deluding ourselves to think we can play finals in 2008?

I believe our window opens again in 2009 (as long as we recruit/develop well)

[n1ck]

I think we can definitely play finals in 08, but i believe 09 will be the premiership year.

[cowboy18]

Another outsider over-rating our list?

The phrase "the window had closed" remains one of the more stupid ones in football. You will be correct 15 out of 16 times you predict that for teams each year.

Anyone who thinks our squad can't successfully play finals next year is deluded.

[Animal Enclosure]

A very interesting read that just goes to show how in depth AFL club's recruiting and self assessment can be. I suppose the question has to be asked as to whether St.Kilda has the appropriate staff in place to complete similar assessments?

Sheldon runs the footy department and John Peake is the new recruiting head but who is the list manager?

Is this an example of how our football operations are lacking in comparison to other clubs? This is especially disappointing considering the revamp of the footy department 12 months ago was to deliver us a 'world's best practice' set up.

[saintsRrising]

This is especially disappointing considering the revamp of the footy department 12 months ago was to deliver us a 'world's best practice' set up.

Why disappointing????

Firstly the changes were implemented AFTER the last trading period.

Peake only joined us THIS year.


This COMING draft will be the FIRST test of our new sustem.


Lets have a look at what Peake delivers before we hang him.


about the only immediate change last year was the expanded rookie selections....and so far so good there...we had one of the best returns from rookies .....and with VR, Geary and Eddie there is promise that at least 1 of tem will deliver the goods.

[mad saint guy]

Going by his criteria, here is how our list would stack up realistically at the start of the 2008 season

1 - Elite player (outstanding player of the AFL)
2 - Highly talented (very good player)
3 - Core player (likely to play mostly senior footy)
4 A - improving player but not yet at AFL standard eg a well performed 1st yr draftee that hasn't played senior footy
4 B - A below std player or declining or aging player.
5 - developing player eg rookie

Gram - 2
X.Clarke - 3
Watts - 4B
L.Fisher - 3
Hayes - 2
Hudghton - 2
Baker - 3
Montagna - 2
Riewoldt - 1
Ball - 3
Gardiner - 4B
R.Clarke - 3
Fiora - 3
Goddard - 2
Gilbert - 3
Armitage - 4A
Ferguson - 4B
Birss - 3
Koschitzke - 2
Brooks - 4B
S.Fisher - 2
Dal Santo - 2
Blake - 4B
Rix - 4B
Howard - 5
Maguire - 3
McQualter - 4B
Gwilt - 4B
Harvey - 2
Allen - 4A
Jones - 4B
Van Rheenen - 5*
Eddy - 4A*
Geary - 4A*
Attard - 4B*
Milne - 3

Total - 36 players

Elite - 1
Very good - 9
Core AFL standard - 10

Developing players - 4
Not AFL standard/Unproven - 9
Developing project players - 2

We have a good amount of high-quality players, however I feel that a few of those players should be elite by now. Hayes was at the beginning of 2006 and might be able to get back into that group, Kosi has the ability and so does Dal Santo. We need to either get the guys in the 4B catagory to step up or delist them.

[saintsRrising]

Another outsider over-rating our list?

The phrase "the window had closed" remains one of the more stupid ones in football. You will be correct 15 out of 16 times you predict that for teams each year.

Anyone who thinks our squad can't successfully play finals next year is deluded.

Well I think that particular window has closed...

The Blightlotto Window..

GTrain, Hamill, Voss are all gone...along with Penny, Aussie, Thommo & Frankie....and even Black.

That is a lot of talent.....witha lot of replacements required.

The Draftlotto Window


We are now opening a new window...one with the core made up of our Draftlotto players (Roo, Kosi, Ball, X, Dal etc) who are reaching their peak.....as opposed to the previous window where they were the supporting cast for the Blightlotto players.



Can we build a new QUALITY support team to support our Draftlotto players???

[saintly]

A very interesting read that just goes to show how in depth AFL club's recruiting and self assessment can be. I suppose the question has to be asked as to whether St.Kilda has the appropriate staff in place to complete similar assessments?

Sheldon runs the footy department and John Peake is the new recruiting head but who is the list manager?

Is this an example of how our football operations are lacking in comparison to other clubs? This is especially disappointing considering the revamp of the footy department 12 months ago was to deliver us a 'world's best practice' set up.

the saints do not have a list manager. and in 2007 added 1/2 extra recruitning manager Peaker with beverdge on part time dueties.

[Dis Believer]

Pull Banger out of the total games stat at the end of next year (nearly 400 games by then) and the total will get down to around 2200. that will mak us nearly one of the youngest lists.

this is where statistics start to be misleading. We had a high games played total at the start of 07, but the reality was that a handful of players had played a big chunk of games and skewed the overall figure.

[SaintBot]

Pull Banger out of the total games stat at the end of next year (nearly 400 games by then) and the total will get down to around 2200. that will mak us nearly one of the youngest lists.

that would make us one of the most inexperienced lists...not necessarily the youngest

[Animal Enclosure]

This is especially disappointing considering the revamp of the footy department 12 months ago was to deliver us a 'world's best practice' set up.

Why disappointing????

Firstly the changes were implemented AFTER the last trading period.

Peake only joined us THIS year.


This COMING draft will be the FIRST test of our new sustem.


Lets have a look at what Peake delivers before we hang him.


about the only immediate change last year was the expanded rookie selections....and so far so good there...we had one of the best returns from rookies .....and with VR, Geary and Eddie there is promise that at least 1 of tem will deliver the goods.

SaintsRising I was more questioning whether the setup of Sheldon being footy manager was the best set up. I reckon John Peake will be a very good acquisition & was not hanging him at all.

Hawthorn have the following footy dept set up (not including coaching/fitness)
Mark Evans General Manager - Football Operations
Chris Pelchen General Manager – Player Personnel & Strategy
Nicky Commerford Football Operations Coordinator
Gerard Brick Football Administration Officer
Jason Burt Player Welfare and Development Manager

in addition they have in recruiting;
Gary Buckenara West Coast Recruiting Manager
Graham Wright East Coast Recruiting Manager
Greg Boxall East Coast Recruiting Assistant

In comparison St.Kilda have;

Ken Sheldon General Manager, Football
Tony Elshaug General Manager, Football Development
Danny Sexton Development Manager (pretty much an assistant coach)

& in recruiting;
John Peake Recruiting Manager
John Beveridge Recruiting Advisor

So straight away you can see we are short staffed in the most crucial area of all. I would hope that this is the main area that the new board can overhaul & give us a chance to compete with even the mid range clubs like Hawthorn.

[saintsRrising]

SaintsRising I was more questioning whether the setup of Sheldon being footy manager was the best set up. I reckon John Peake will be a very good acquisition & was not hanging him at all.
.

Thanks for the clarification on what was disappointing you.


...and yes that is why I supported in FF in part so they can deploy more resources in this area.

[The_Dud]

i think this whole rating of players, and the "premiership window" being open, is all bull crap

Guarenteed if u asked these 'experts' if Port Adelaide and Geelongs "premiership windows" were open at the start of this year, they would have said no way

same for Sydeney 2 years ago, NO ONE gave them a chance at the start of the season

this is just a case of someone trying to justify their job by spewing out alot of statistics to try sound intelligent

[bigcarl]

Another outsider over-rating our list?

The phrase "the window had closed" remains one of the more stupid ones in football. You will be correct 15 out of 16 times you predict that for teams each year.

Anyone who thinks our squad can't successfully play finals next year is deluded.

yep. this time last year geelong's premiership window had closed. of course we can play finals next year. we can win it if things go our way

[Oh When the Saints]

Interesting to see how we do go next year. It will very much be "Lyon's team".

If we do win a flag in the next 3-4 years, the 22 blokes will be very different from those who carried our hopes in 2004/05.

[iwantmeseats]

50K members?? In a couple of years. Absolutley kidding themselves hawthorn!

They have taken a quantum leap in their opinion of themselves this past two years. The board and their supporters. They are really getting on my tits I have to say.

[saintspremiers]

One of the most important aspects to trading and recruiting is kicking ability (as Pelchen mentioned), together with leg speed.

These are the two ingredients we sorely miss at the moment.

In fact, St.Kilda has had very few good quality kicking players for the 20 years I've supported the team.

Good kicking players can cover leg speed to some extent (eg. BJ)....good kicking/long kicking midfielders break games open and relieve pressure on the key forwards also.

[Snakeman66]

i think this whole rating of players, and the "premiership window" being open, is all bull crap

Guarenteed if u asked these 'experts' if Port Adelaide and Geelongs "premiership windows" were open at the start of this year, they would have said no way

same for Sydeney 2 years ago, NO ONE gave them a chance at the start of the season

this is just a case of someone trying to justify their job by spewing out alot of statistics to try sound intelligent

This guy(Pelchen) is an absolute tosser. Was involved in the Nick Stevens non-trade when he was at Port(walked with no compensation to Port). Outlived his welcome at Port and turns up at Hawthorn where he stuffs around with the Spida trade to Sydney that could have been done on Monday but does it at the last minute that may have allowed other trade to be done. Offers Carlton picks to Carlscum as a trade for Brett Thornton however the only problems that Hawthorn don't hold one to the picks he is offering Carlscum.

No credibility.

[saint66au]

Attard - 4B*

SHeesh MSG, you will use ANY vehicle to get the boots into Attard wont you? All year youve bagged him.

Ranking a bloke who was elevated off the rookie list and played every game bar one alongside a bloke who didnt even get on the park cos of injury

Attard...4B.....PFfft..your very earnest and serious view of football, whilst well written for a fella your age, is very blinkered when it comes to players you dont rate.

[Teflon]

As much as some clearly get turned on on this forum with a burning desire to don the white lab coat and play scientist...footy aint a science.

I concur - many wouldve said last year Geelong AND North were going south......whats the stats say bout that?

Footy/life.....subjective little lists and 12344b5 criteria's are all someones way of explaining/understanding/trying to understand what cant be neatly pidgeon holed.

[sauce_head]

Interesting read. However his conclusions can be taken with a grain of salt. Everybody wants to put us down, as our list has been hyped by the media.

He is going to give them a speil of what they want to hear, especially if they are chasing an additional 20k members. And of those teams ranked eldest, Freo, StKilda and probably Essendon will play final 8 next year.

The bloke is choking on his own you know what.

[Dal_Santos_Gal]

He rated the Saints to have the most talented list in 05 and 06 and said their window is now closed.

Are we deluding ourselves to think we can play finals in 2008?

A serious question, Where did everyone place Geelong this time last year after playing finals footy for a couple of years and then failing to make the 8.

Did anyone seriously think they would have the season they had and go on and win the flag?

Footy is not always clear cut and I not going to lose any sleep over one mans opinion. IMO of course

[saintsRrising]

One of the most important aspects to trading and recruiting is kicking ability (as Pelchen mentioned), together with leg speed.

These are the two ingredients we sorely miss at the moment.

In fact, St.Kilda has had very few good quality kicking players for the 20 years I've supported the team.

Good kicking players can cover leg speed to some extent (eg. BJ)....good kicking/long kicking midfielders break games open and relieve pressure on the key forwards also.

Having both kicking skills and legspeed is why Aussie stood out so much....he was often the lone ranger in both aspects.

[saintsRrising]

Are we deluding ourselves to think we can play finals in 2008?

No we are not...provided that Misson, Ross Smith and the AIS guys can deliver.....We only just missed out and in the second half we showed that we are good enough to play finals.

Yes we have lost Hamill and Thommo...but they did not really feature in 2007.

The gtrain is a bigger loss....though he wasa bit up and down.


However the BIGGER question is whether we can play good finals footy...


To be GOOD we still havea lots of IFS..

IF Gardi can play
IF Goose can get back to his earlier form
IF X and Raph can step up & IF X can start kicking goals
IF Armo can start playing ok senior football and IF he can be fit enough
IF Max can stay fit...as a good FB is vital and he is our only true FB
IF Ball's operation can get him back to, or near to, his full cpability
IF BJ by finals time can be playing good football
IF someone, anyone, from outside last years regulars can push up...ie Geary, Eddie etc...
IF Dal can step up from being very good to being elite
IF Hayes can get back to full form (he seemed to late in 2007)
IF Gram can rediscover his 2006 form
IF Fiora can step up another cog...including kickinga few more goals.

Now that is a lot of IFS, and you do not need them all, but you do need most of them.