coaches outside RL that you rate.

[Dan Warna]

IMO the best coach in the league is lethal atm.

mark williams seems to be an old style fire and brimstone coach, some suggested after 04, that the job was done and he was finished, but he's certainly pulled them out of the fire.

mark thompson looked finished middle to end of last year, and so did the cats, overrated, overpayed and wasted draft picks on F/S. 07, they have a new attitude, new confidence, new aggression, and although just falling over the line in the prelim smell confident and good adn mark thompson has gone from bitter and jealous to a champion coach. tomorrow arvo will see who is right.

sheeds looks and feels tired.

pagan seemed a lot like parko in his last year at carlton, pretty much going through the motions.

wallace, not sure he has it any more, if he ever did.

rocket? got further than wallets but without his star studded swans, is struggling at the dogs.

Paul Roos, the swannie fans were throwing the knives at him earlier this year, but the swans late charge had more than a few sides worried. they aren't hard like the eagles or the brions, but they are, when they are on their game, disciplined. Quite possibly the most disciplined team in the AFL with less talent than teams ahead of them.

Neil Craig, inherited a disheartened, disinterested, poorly recruited crows stamped with too old, too tired, too lazy, stamp and turned them around got the most of his list, and made them competitive. guys like riccouto and macleod were finished till he got their. it will be interesting to see how he develops the team as these guys slide out.

woosha? when he came to wce they wre the exact opposite of his style of play, they started off like the saints of 97, all out attack, run run run, but punished by teams willing to close them off and tackle and play hard ball. Then in 05 they hardened the frak up. they still ran hard, but their style seemed to involve chasing, tackling and they started to enjoy hurting opponents, technically they may have been different to the eagles, but their attitude was 100% killer.

[saintsRrising]

Willim's is a lot more than a fire and brimstone coach....and indeed I believe that while he comes across as that way to some extent that it is actually more steely resolve that fire and brimstone.


Like Matthews he is single minded in that ONLY your best is good enough....and is ruthless in achieving it.


Everyone that has worked for him, or under him....or been a player under him all rem,ark on him being an outstanding teacher.

[saint patrick]

Neil Craig has always impressed me as an astute man with a great fitness ethic with Charlie Walsh etc.Thought the crows could have done some damage this year if they had sneaked past the Hawks...a brilliant game!

Woosha obviously has a great list but they are always very well drilled as well.

As much as he annoys me Malthouse has proven he can generally get the very best out of any list consistantly over a long period of time.

[SENsei]

I rate two highly.

Mark Williams for his ability to be early-Sheedy like and have quick rebuilds. Gets the most from his players. Passionate.

Alistair Clarkson - took the hard calls with only a 2yr contract as a safety net. Stuck to his guns and stayed the course. Held his nerve.

[Saint Mik]

Choco for mine loves the club loves the job and just loves footy you can see it.

Lethal has a bit of a in it for the money feel about him, bit like Blighty when he come to us but still VERY good and i am probably way off the mark but it just has that feel about it to me.

I think Clarky will be the one to watch in the near future along with Rossy, if they can get the clubs to respond to what they are trying to acheive they are going to have massive years ahead of them.

[Dan Warna]

Choco for mine loves the club loves the job and just loves footy you can see it.

Lethal has a bit of a in it for the money feel about him, bit like Blighty when he come to us but still VERY good and i am probably way off the mark but it just has that feel about it to me.

I think Clarky will be the one to watch in the near future along with Rossy, if they can get the clubs to respond to what they are trying to acheive they are going to have massive years ahead of them.

clarkeson has an awesome list to play with. he plays to his strenghts as well, instead of covering up his teams deficiencies IMO.

lethal, maybe , i think he looked tired in the last season at collingwood, the players had lost interest and so had he.

Brisbane showed a bit of spark in 06 and 07, but nothing like 01 to 04. If he can get this no brand list to just 1 more flag I think it will prove that he is one of the greatest coaches of all time. His list is pretty much no-brand at the moment with a few glittering stars in lappin, black, JB etc. but the rest are kids or GOPs.

I'm pretty sure he could walk into a media job or media jobs + Public speaking for 1/2 a million if he wanted to with far less work than coaching. many argue he is one of the greats of all time. i dont think money is an issue for lethal at all.

hawks would pay him 1m to come down tomorrow and coach, clarkeson be damned.

concur about williams, he seems angry as well, and focussed, to go with his intellect.

[Oh When the Saints]

Good thread Dan Warna.


Personally I don't rate Leigh Matthews at all. He coaches off his respect and authority, rather than his tactical astuteness or preparation. Interesting to hear the comments of two former players Mal Michael and Des Headland about Matthews coaching.

Both basically said that he just sends them out there and tells them to go hard. Michael in particular said that Sheedy was a far better coach in terms of his preparation and leadership.

But Matthews has 4 flags, so people will always rate him.


Best coach in the AFL by a mile is Choco Williams. Passionate, tactically astute, understands list management, driven for success and unconventional. The perfect coach.


Neil Craig has experimented too much and whilst he did the hard yards early, he mucked around and cost the Crows a chance at a premiership.


Alistair Clarkson seems too much to be "one of the boys", although he has managed the Hawks perfectly so far.

Mick Malthouse remains an outstanding coach. Continues to bleed success out of a rubbish list, and is as passionate and as astute as ever. Another one who understands the game and coaches a great style of footy.


Paul Roos is also very good ...

[Dan Warna]

Personally I don't rate Leigh Matthews at all. He coaches off his respect and authority, rather than his tactical astuteness or preparation. Interesting to hear the comments of two former players Mal Michael and Des Headland about Matthews coaching.
.

headcase has never been the player he could have been at freo, he has a lot of issues thats clear to see. IMO under cuddles his career has gone backwards. He has too bigger tickets on himself. the game he turned on 30 odd possessions and a couple of goals after hte tatoo incident just shows what he is capable off if motivated, lethal does that to his team.

mal michael, well lot of negative press coming out about sheedy the past couple of weeks, even a fair bit privately. Michael was certainly a fan of lethal not that long ago, but came to issues with lethal when he wouldn't support michaels bid to be a 'part time' footballer, so there maybe another agenda.

i remember watching the brions switch from all out flood, to all attack in a the space of a minute against us in 03 I think it was. They were exceptionally well drilled and disciplined. maybe you could put down that to assitants but the skill level of the lions was sublime, their tackling was perfect, their agression was amazing and they maintained their discipline.

some of these issues 'well coached' sides can't achieve.

[Oh When the Saints]

In my small experience, great players tend to be well-drilled and disciplined anyway.

Not questioning that Matthews is a great motivator, but the game has gone beyond the John Kennedy types.


You need an understanding of the game at a more tactical level, and need to be across the injury/fitness part of the job too.

Personally I don't believe Matthews has this.


Matthews looked very good with Voss, Lappin, Power, Black, Akermanis, Michael, Leppitsch, B. Scott, C. Scott, Lynch, White, Bradshaw, Notting and Keating playing under him.

Much easier to win when those blokes are playing for you.


Matthews for mine is a similar coach to Worsfold. Both sort of blustery types who are short on the detail but big on the toughness/courageous aspect of footy.

IMO you need more than that now. That's why I love Choco Williams. He is an incredibly smart bloke with a great ability to teach and develop players, as well as being tough and uncompromising himself.

It's why I believe RL will eventually make a good coach.


I can see you're not going to agree though Dan Warna.

[luckysaint]

M.Knights

[st.mart]

I don't rate Ross Lyon yet....has done zero to date....

Paul Roos, Worsfold, Choco are different but all very good footy coaches......

Leigh Matthews is an outstanding coach of a good footy team (like Pagan) simplistic, but well respected...but not a good developer - does not teach well...

Malthouse leads the pack......he does both.....

[rodgerfox]

Matthews, Williams.

Full stop.

Everyone else is overrated.

[Red]

The good coaches are those who win flags, just as the good teams are.

So that would be Matthews, Malthouse, Sheedy, Choco, Roos, Worsfold

and of course Pagan.

The others need to prove themselves although Thomo may join the other

list tomorrow.

[spert]

Agree about good coaches win flags. RL needs a couple of years before we can judge him, he inherited an injury-riddled underdeveloped list, so give him time. Chocco Williams is clearly a top coach and develops players to their max. Roos is obviously a good communicator with his players and gets the most out of players who are less than stars. Don't underestimate Matthews as he is developing some promising new players for the next generation of Lions. Eade and Wallace are overrated. Not sure if Clarkeson is just a one-hit wonder this year or not, though they have recruited well. Thompson probably isn't totally responsible for the Cats, I think there are others pulling strings in the background, plus they have a had a magical run with injuries -aint it great to be able to field just about your best team all season! .Dunno about the rest.

[Dan Warna]

Agree about good coaches win flags..

fair call

RL needs a couple of years before we can judge him, he inherited an injury-riddled underdeveloped list, so give him time.
.

injury riddled yes, but none of it was planned. as for underdeveloped, thats argueable, he did inherit a fine list comparable with any given the circumstances, in the opinion of many. even the bookies rate us on list alone.

Chocco Williams is clearly a top coach and develops players to their max. Roos is obviously a good communicator with his players and gets the most out of players who are less than stars. .

concur but he does have some outstanding talent, and he is clearly passionate and that infects his players as well.

Don't underestimate Matthews as he is developing some promising new players for the next generation of Lions. .

concur, i wonder if lethals fire is still in teh belly to build up again, we saw some of his players do it this year but fall away.

Eade and Wallace are overrated..

concur, with his millions and rent-a-players eade is nothing

Not sure if Clarkeson is just a one-hit wonder this year or not, though they have recruited well.

.

concur

Thompson probably isn't totally responsible for the Cats, I think there are others pulling strings in the background, plus they have a had a magical run with injuries -aint it great to be able to field just about your best team all season! .Dunno about the rest.

not sure about that, but certainly an injury free run has given them an enormous boost., sydney and WCE should what could happen with a handful of injuries to key players can do to your season.

in 06 we were missing a swag of players and still were competitive until struck down with 5 injuries in game against melbourne, who in 07 cried injuries for their own pitiful form.

in 07, we were 1 game out of the 8 despite playing some atrocious football in season, adapting to a new coachs style PLUS having injuries comparable with 06 and certainly far worse than WCE and sydney.

[joffaboy]

Grant Thomas. Rated him highly.

very good coach and was unlucky to be sacked.

[Dan Warna]

Grant Thomas. Rated him highly.

very good coach and was unlucky to be sacked.

you'll bring the wrath of B4E in an otherwise sane thread

[rodgerfox]

The good coaches are those who win flags, just as the good teams are.

I don't agree with that entirely.

The Carlton players believed, and Silvagni said it publicly, that Walls was hopeless.

They decided to effectively ignore him and do it themselves.

Some premiership coaches are just lucky.

Paul Roos has to be the most overrated coach in the history of world sport.

Has a team including the best power forward in the comp, a dual Brownlow medallist, AA FB, premiership ruckman etc. etc. and he only got them over the line by 2 points when they had not on injury for 10 straight weeks!!!!

I serisouly think Carlton could be a contender if they had their full list to choose from for 10 straight weeks.

Not only that, Sydney came up against other teams who were smashed by injury and still just fell over the line.

[MCG-Unit]

Other than Lyon.....
Roos, Worsfold, Thomas

[saint patrick]

I don't rate Ross Lyon yet....has done zero to date....

Wouldn't call overcoming the obstacles he had this year[his first!] and narrowly missing the eight zero...

I'm very confident Ross Lyon will win some respect in the next few years

[Beej]

Leigh Matthews is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I could listen to him talk footy all day long - always looking to innovative and the most knowledgeable person in the game today especially with the technical side of football.

When you talk about legacies in football you think Jock McHale, Norm Smith, and Leigh Matthews.

This current Lions team will be an extremely formidable outfit in the years to come with Matthews in charge.

[QueenC]

Willim's is a lot more than a fire and brimstone coach....and indeed I believe that while he comes across as that way to some extent that it is actually more steely resolve that fire and brimstone.


Like Matthews he is single minded in that ONLY your best is good enough....and is ruthless in achieving it.


Everyone that has worked for him, or under him....or been a player under him all rem,ark on him being an outstanding teacher.

Best coach in the AFL by a mile is Choco Williams. Passionate, tactically astute, understands list management, driven for success and unconventional. The perfect coach.

It is this kind of attitude and approach that we hope will be a part of Baileys philosophy when he coaches the Dees.

This is something that has been missing from our club. Daniher was a great spruiker and motivator, but was a poor and slow match day tactician, and while the players adored him, there has been an ongoing and ever increasing problem with player development and mental toughness within the Melbourne Football Club.

Bailey in his short time has already demonstrated a harder approach to what he believes is required within the club, and that is at least partially because of his coaching resume and experience prior to this. He was an assistant at Essendon during their last flag and obviously we got him from Port and was their defensive coach in their Premiership year and midfield coach this year.

This is a long winded way of saying that what Williams has achieved at Port this year in particular is an absolute credit to him and his coaching ability.
And that we are hoping that that approach will help us out.

[SaintBot]

1. Leigh Matthews - 4 Premierships speek for itself. May not be the players best friend but he certainly gains their respect.

2. Mark Williams - Best coach in the league at identifying talent and developing it. Willing to make hard calls, therefor Port Adelaide hardly has a rebuliding stage.

3. John Worsfold - Another coach who can develop players extremly well. Has managed the Eagles list extremly well and while there is a clear culture problem at West Coast, Worsfold manages to keep the team on the park firing.

4. Mick Malthouse - As much as I hate him I find myself struggling to find bad things to say about him. He has got a rather average Collingwood which really should've finished bottom 5 to only miss out on a GF by 5 points.

5. Mark Thompson - Last year, he would've been one of the worst coaches on my list. But he has taken it apon himself to get to know the players better and it has helped. He is willing to change his way for the betterment of Geelong. The Cats at the start of this year put a big whiteboard up in a room where players can go and anonymously critise or applaud what Mark is/has doing/done and he takes it all on board very well. I congratulate him for changing himself, and now look he has got his team in a Grand Final.

6. Al Clarkson - Understood that when he took over the Hawks that he would be rebuliding the club. Wasn't worried about losing, unlike Terry Wallace at the Tigers, and now has a very good team which has made finals one or two years earlier than it should have.

7. Dean Laidley - Fair to say that he has done an excellent job at the Kangaroos, especially with such a poor side. He should concentrate on working with the club to improve the list.

8. Paul Roos - Overrated coach. Has a very good list which has never had a single injury. Always trying to make excuses, the most laughable being this year when he was complaining about having Tadgh Kennelly and Nick Davis being injured, saying that the Swans had the worst injury list in the league .

9. Neil Craig - Will struggle very badly for a few years now. Unlike Mark Williams, Craig isn't willing to make the hard decsions on the older and fringe players. Now he has the oldest list in the league which could only manage one week in the finals.

10. Terry Wallace - Would be a good coach with a good side. Hopeless at rebuilding, which is very much what the Tigers have being trying to do for years. Will be surprised to see him still coaching in 2009.

11. Rodney Eade - Poor list manager. Tried to do things different to the rest of the AFL by picking only quick, small players. At a consquence, the speedy runners never had anyone to kick it to. Another coach whos time is running out.


No comment on Ross Lyon, Dean Bailey, Mark Harvey, Brett Ratten and Matthew Knights.

[evertonfc]

It's why I believe RL will eventually make a good coach.

I don't rate Ross Lyon yet....has done zero to date....

I wish I had your optimism, OWTS, but I share the sentiment of st.mart on this one. He's done little except get flustered by the media and tell us we're not doing enough squats at training. And take us to 9th in the weakest year of footy in over a decade

Time I will give him, yes - and he deserves our full support for the next year (particuarly by whichever board is in control) - but I will reserve judgement over whether he should lead us beyond 2008 on the strength of his results next season and his ability to develop the playing list.

Remember, Tim Watson guided us to just shy of the of the finals in 1999 - and he announced his resignation midway through the next season. Different circumstances, yes, but being able to move swiftly and ably if change is required is a virtue.

I'd say Ross has some work to do, and he's fortunate that he's been given such an easy run by the football community. I'd also say he's lucky that all he needs to do to keep his spot is make the eight next year - something we should do with our list.

I hope he succeeds, because that will mean good things for the club, but there are plenty of questions he needs to answer before he gets a real tick from me.

[mad saint guy]

1 - Mark Williams
2 - Mick Malthouse

Williams is all-round the best coach in the league, while Malthouse is just very good at getting the best out of his players. I wouldn't trust him with any drafting responsibility or give him full control over trading and list management though.