We are now paying the price of poor list management

[Bono]

We are now paying the price of poor list management:

This year we had 44 on our list (incl Rookies).

Players retired (5):
M. Clarke
Thompson
Voss
Hamill
Gehrig

Injured for 2008 (1):
Attard

Injured coming back for 2008 (so dont expect full seasons) (2):
Gardiner
Goddard

44-6=36 with another 2 doubtful.

Players that shouldnt be there next season include:
Watts
Brooks
McQualter
Gwilt?
Raymond
Sweeney

That leaves us with 30 and 2 doubtful. Unfortunately we cant go having 12 picks in the draft so we are in a bit of strife for the next couple of years until the Armitage's and Gilberts etc get more games under their belt. Areas like this is where the prvious Coach severely let the club down.

[chook23]

I really think thompson went one season too many.

Could have got one year into a youngster

but you could also argue that with M.Clarke

[Oh When the Saints]

Yep Bono totally agree.

Players that shouldnt be there next season include:
Watts
Brooks
McQualter
Gwilt?
Raymond
Sweeney

Interesting that 5 of those 6 players have been drafted since 2004 ...

To avoid the list problems you are talking about, we needed the majority of those 5 players to be quality kids coming through.

Instead they don't look like giving us anything.


So recruiting has been poor too.

[spert]

Definately recruiting wasn't up to scratch, but I think the club has taken steps to improve that this year on.

[rodgerfox]

That leaves us with 30 and 2 doubtful. Unfortunately we cant go having 12 picks in the draft so we are in a bit of strife for the next couple of years until the Armitage's and Gilberts etc get more games under their belt. Areas like this is where the prvious Coach severely let the club down.

This was always going to happen.

I think it will only be 2 years though.

I stated this when the coach was sacked, that 2007 was our last chance at a flag for 3 years, so changing coach was a mistake at that time.


We will have a 'hiatus' until the young brigade come through. The young brigade I refer to, don't need to be superstars they just need to add depth to what will be a core of ...

Roo
Goose
Kosi
Ball
Dal
BJ
X
Watts
Joey
Sam Fisher
Raph
McQualter

The old brigade by that time be....

Lenny
Bakes
Milne
Max
Fiora

The youngs so far by that time would be...

Gilbert
Armitage
Plus any draftees


You see the list is still very, very sound in 2-3 years time but lacks youth until Armitage, Gilbert and this years and next's draftess come on.
In the meantime, the core I listed above is good enough to play finals, but without the balance of core, old and young you rarely win a flag.

The list management I think is very good, and links directly with the intention of playing finals for 10 years, and in 5 or 6 of those years being good enough to win it.

It's just that in 08 and possibly 09, we won't quite be balanced enough to win it, but definately good enough to play finals.

[saintly]

in the sticky player contract list - mcqualter is still contracted for 2008. so he will have to stay.

i do believe bono you are right!

i belive sweeny anf raymond should be delisted. play brooks mand watts in 2008 and see what happens.

gee i hope the saints don't give carlton pick 9 for fevola!

[meher baba]

Why do you consider Watts, Gwilt and McQualter to be "players who shouldn't be there"?

I don't think any of the three are write-offs just yet.

As I and others have posted ad infinitum on here, you cannot possibly expect all 44 or whatever players on your list to be of All-Australian quality.

I hope all three have great seasons in 2008 and prove you and the other doubters wrong.

[Teflon]

We are now paying the price of poor list management:

This year we had 44 on our list (incl Rookies).

Players retired (5):
M. Clarke
Thompson
Voss
Hamill
Gehrig

Injured for 2008 (1):
Attard

Injured coming back for 2008 (so dont expect full seasons) (2):
Gardiner
Goddard

44-6=36 with another 2 doubtful.

Players that shouldnt be there next season include:
Watts
Brooks
McQualter
Gwilt?
Raymond
Sweeney

That leaves us with 30 and 2 doubtful. Unfortunately we cant go having 12 picks in the draft so we are in a bit of strife for the next couple of years until the Armitage's and Gilberts etc get more games under their belt. Areas like this is where the prvious Coach severely let the club down.

Good post - its largely the reason I feel Thomas was let go 1 year to long. End 05 he should have been exited out - prelims or not the writing was on the wall.

North made a prelim this year - so wat they aint going anywhere near a flag and are probably 100 pts of it.....

Yeah hindsight is lovely...its also something to learn from..

Gwilt, Mqualter (slow struggles to kick 30), Watts (recruited cause of dad....not what we needed we needed MIDFIELDERS), Raymond (debarcle) - these guys would not be puicked upo by other clubs yet they are on our list and will probably stay....says a lot of where we are at.

Thommo, Peckett and probably Powell allowed 1 year to many with a huge drop in experience innevitable when they all left. Hamill 5 yr deal???? WTF?

lOTS of mistakes.........sad part is we have a great core, 1 elite player (Roo) and 3 or 4 others who could be (but arent yet) and they basically have to tread water in their prime while the like of Gilbert, Armitage (hopefully) et al fill the void left by the previous recruitment mess.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the problem with us is we take too long to cut our losses we persist and persist with hacks when we should be getting them out and new blood in

brooks should of gone last year
murray should of gone 3 years ago not just last year
sweeny too long
raymond too long

we should look at our list with the exception of the kids who need to grow into their bodies if a player can not fit into the starting 22 at some point they should be axed we carry tooo many players its ok to carry players when they are injured but carring players cause they aint up to it is not on

[rodgerfox]

lOTS of mistakes.........sad part is we have a great core, 1 elite player (Roo) and 3 or 4 others who could be (but arent yet) and they basically have to tread water in their prime while the like of Gilbert, Armitage (hopefully) et al fill the void left by the previous recruitment mess.

Recruitment mess?

What, like Port Adelaide?

Successful, then go through 2 tough years while they wait for the youngsters to come up to fill the void of the older guys moving on.

Yeah, huge mess.

[joffaboy]

Why do you consider Watts, Gwilt and McQualter to be "players who shouldn't be there"?

I don't think any of the three are write-offs just yet.

As I and others have posted ad infinitum on here, you cannot possibly expect all 44 or whatever players on your list to be of All-Australian quality.

I hope all three have great seasons in 2008 and prove you and the other doubters wrong.

Agree totally.

[Teflon]

lOTS of mistakes.........sad part is we have a great core, 1 elite player (Roo) and 3 or 4 others who could be (but arent yet) and they basically have to tread water in their prime while the like of Gilbert, Armitage (hopefully) et al fill the void left by the previous recruitment mess.

Recruitment mess?

What, like Port Adelaide?

Successful, then go through 2 tough years while they wait for the youngsters to come up to fill the void of the older guys moving on.

Yeah, huge mess.

Weve got their quality coming through numnuts? you really think a lightning quick Mqualter banging them through from 55 is what Port want........hang on......they actually HAVE that in Pearce, Burgoyne, Rodan and Co.........Salopek, we have.......Mqualetr...Gwilt.....Raymond.......Brooks........yeah MESS is the word.

[brown-coat]

hehe..

lightning quick mcqualter banging them through from 55!

Ah paralell universes. You can only imagine.

In this universe Mcqualter is a grade A, slow dopey hack. Capable of advancing to a good ordinary player. He's not even there yet. I don't care how many under 11s runner up best and fairests he won.

[Teflon]

hehe..

lightning quick mcqualter banging them through from 55!

Ah paralell universes. You can only imagine.

In this universe Mcqualter is a grade A, slow dopey hack. Capable of advancing to a good ordinary player. He's not even there yet. I don't care how many under 11s runner up best and fairests he won.

we'll be ok though........McGoughs making a comeback.....

[locoplayaz]

We are now paying the price of poor list management:

This year we had 44 on our list (incl Rookies).

Players retired (5):
M. Clarke
Thompson
Voss
Hamill
Gehrig

Injured for 2008 (1):
Attard

Injured coming back for 2008 (so dont expect full seasons) (2):
Gardiner
Goddard

44-6=36 with another 2 doubtful.

Players that shouldnt be there next season include:
Watts
Brooks
McQualter
Gwilt?
Raymond
Sweeney

That leaves us with 30 and 2 doubtful. Unfortunately we cant go having 12 picks in the draft so we are in a bit of strife for the next couple of years until the Armitage's and Gilberts etc get more games under their belt. Areas like this is where the prvious Coach severely let the club down.

Add Milne, Ferguson and Rix to that.. also Baker has now become a liability.

Clear out the dead wood and start fresh IMO

[hammers]

I really think thompson went one season too many.

Could have got one year into a youngster

but you could also argue that with M.Clarke

How many games did Thompson play? By my recollection he did not play too many.

[saint66au]

lOTS of mistakes.........sad part is we have a great core, 1 elite player (Roo) and 3 or 4 others who could be (but arent yet) and they basically have to tread water in their prime while the like of Gilbert, Armitage (hopefully) et al fill the void left by the previous recruitment mess.

Recruitment mess?

What, like Port Adelaide?

Successful, then go through 2 tough years while they wait for the youngsters to come up to fill the void of the older guys moving on.

Yeah, huge mess.

Weve got their quality coming through numnuts? you really think a lightning quick Mqualter banging them through from 55 is what Port want........hang on......they actually HAVE that in Pearce, Burgoyne, Rodan and Co.........Salopek, we have.......Mqualetr...Gwilt.....Raymond.......Brooks........yeah MESS is the word.

Cant help yourself can you??

[saintspremiers]

Interesting point re the dud recruits since 2004.

As Westaway's crew have mentioned, it doesn't help to have JB driving around the country due to lack of funds rather than flying as (I assume) most recruiters do from other clubs.....OR....you have recruitment people based in other states that work for the club on a part time/casual basis.

So, I don't know how much of the blame should sit on JB's shoulders???

[rodgerfox]

Weve got their quality coming through numnuts? you really think a lightning quick Mqualter banging them through from 55 is what Port want........hang on......they actually HAVE that in Pearce, Burgoyne, Rodan and Co.........Salopek, we have.......Mqualetr...Gwilt.....Raymond.......Brooks........yeah MESS is the word.

Pearce, Burgoyne, Rodan and Salopek?

Why are you comparing them to McQualter, Gwilt, Raymond and Brooks?

What's the correlation there?

[Dan Warna]

Interesting point re the dud recruits since 2004.

As Westaway's crew have mentioned, it doesn't help to have JB driving around the country due to lack of funds rather than flying as (I assume) most recruiters do from other clubs.....OR....you have recruitment people based in other states that work for the club on a part time/casual basis.

So, I don't know how much of the blame should sit on JB's shoulders???

McQualter was an outstanding junior, perhaps he hasn't come on since being a kid but i guess everyone along the way got it wrong...captain state u16, captain state u18, numerous awards along the way as well...

Gwilt, 3rd tall in defence, 3rd tall in the forward line, 55m plus hoof on him, a bit slow on the decision making, not a bad back up player might develop into something decent.

Brooks 198 Cm ruckman with a massive leap on him, and a 50m plus kick, who can mark in the air, I can't see what they saw in him as a 18 year old so he hasn't come on, but he certainly was an exciting prospect as a junior.

Rodan, 100% of the folks here were DEAD SET AGAINST taking rodan in the draft on the forum so you were all wrong on that one as well...

Salopek hardly played for 4 1/2 season with injury after injury, given a chance middle of last season he certainly has come on, but his development has been slower than say montagna.

if we did take him, idiots on the forum would be howling for his delistment from the day he arrived

raymond dont know much about him, but I guess we have to shoot everyone under 22 who hasn't got a brownlow yet

heck farkwits were calling for Montagna to be traded for a round 3 pick end of last few seasons because he was deadwood or a just another ordinary midfielder...

[fonz_#15]

i was going to start a new thread with the similar outline, but will use this thread to make my point.

imo due to poor recruiting, we will not be able to seriously challenge for a flag for the next 5 years. AT LEAST. Our core group is good, not excellent.

We have one genuine "superstar" in Riewoldt, and then we have Lenny, Dal, chips, Gram, kosi, ball, goddard, montagna and Maxi under roo in terms of importance and value to the team (i have left harvs out due to the fact that he should not be relied upon anymore, despite still being a freak).

After this "core group", we have a host of GOP's, some being strong contributors, ie fiora, goose, fish, bakes, milne, blake and gilbert(has to prove himself for more than 1 season before i can consider him in our top 10-12) .

After these players we have the plain ordinary and the untried, this section of our list concerns me most. Brooks, Mcqualter, Gwilt, Jones (rookie), howard, armitage, geary, rix etc.

Brooks, Mcqualter and gwilt have been on our list for a while now and have contributed very little, they are great concerns, and the fact that Gwilt and Brooks are on our list at all shows that we have recruited poorly, same goes for Rix and maybe even blake.

The way i see it, poor recruiting, be it due to lack of funding, or just silly recruiting decisions by JB (see sweeney and Gwilt) has cost us a realistic flag shot before 2012.

We missed our chances in 2004-2006, this is where we should have won our flag, and we missed it. Was it GT's fault? maybe, who knows, was it due to our flawed list? again who knows, butit was a lot stronger then than it is now. Retirements alone this season have taken in excess of 700 games experience from our side, which leaves us in big trouble imo.

Whilst the riewoldts, dal santo's etc. are still young, that core grop cannot win a flag without the assistance of our bottom 10 players. As a junior coach once said to me... "you're only as strong as your weakest link" and our bottom 6-10 would be upon some of the worst bottom 10's in the AFL.

The reason we are in this mess, is because of poor recruiting, and i think Rl has a real uphill battle trying to get this list to a flag in the next 5 years, and if he does, it will be a minor miracle.

[bigcarl]

we must use pick 9 to pick up the best available kid in the draft (regardless of type) rather than trade it away for some dud.

[rodgerfox]

"you're only as strong as your weakest link" and our bottom 6-10 would be upon some of the worst bottom 10's in the AFL.

One of footy's biggest myths.

Infact, two of footy's biggest myths.

First one - if our bottom 10 is bad, why when we had 7 of our starting 18 missing did we play in a prelim - and be in it til 3/4 time? Then 2 years ago with an even worse run and worse draw, miss the top 4 by % only? Then last year with probably an even worse injury toll, and a new coach only miss the finals by a game?

Our 'bottom 10' or our depth, is always questioned - but name one club, just one, who has been as competitive as us with as many injuries as we've had.

Adelaide come close, but never lost midfielders - which is their strength.

Secondly, the quote from your junior coach is outdated. This used to be the case, but isn't anymore.

If you're referring to effort, then it's true. If you're referring to ability, then it's no longer the case.

Josh Hunt is a hack. Stokes and Shannon Byrne are duds. But they are lining up alongside their club's best 18 every week. Take out Bartel, Ling, Corey and Ablett (the guns) and you'd soon see how good Geelong's bottom 10 are.

Infact, just rewind to last year to see how incorrect that quote is. It's about having your best players out there, and getting effort from the rest.

Port ditto.

Salopek, Rodan and these guys. How do you think they'd be if the Cornes' and the Burgoynes weren't out there?

Rewind to last year to see how good Port's bottom 10 is when they suffered injuries to their guns.

Port have some duds at the moment, but it's their guns that carry them. Like every other club - you need your best players on the park and fit.

We haven't had that for 5 years. When we have at short times, we've been unstoppable. Literally unbeatable.

[n1ck]

Take out Cousins, Kerr and Judd and look what happens to West Coast... take Cox out as well and refer to the middle of the season.

[fonz_#15]

and another of footballs myths rodger, is how st.kilda can be dudded by everything (injury, draw, tribunal etc), before some of there blind supporters will accept that the team is not good enough.