Rod....if you want to stay on as President...

[JeffDunne]

The Annual Report is a business plan?

Am I reading that correctly TTT?

Surely you jest?

[jwato]

those players and pick for judd i agree not worth it but do we need a chande to freshen things up ?

[Teflon]

And, just in case, the Thomas cancer was cut out 2 years too late.

THAT is the mistake Butters and his Board made.

I too hold Butters and the Board accountable for not moving Thomas on 2 yrs earlier - he was with his experience...and in hindsight a caretaker coach that gave the club stability after the Blight mess BUT the search for a technical football coach with the technical expertise to actually develop players shouldve started earlier (see what Pier did in targeting Malthouse or Essendon tried with Chocco.....) - I believe Lyon has a great technical grasp of the game....the question Id like him to answer or prove next is CAN he develop players...that takes time. You wont get Lyon week in week out saying he was outcoached or we lost purely cause of a lack of belief clouds...

Your other points are spot on - this Board has at least got some runs on the board......right now Westaways mob have a stack of promises of Premierships.....with little detail.

[Solar]

And, just in case, the Thomas cancer was cut out 2 years too late.

THAT is the mistake Butters and his Board made.

I too hold Butters and the Board accountable for not moving Thomas on 2 yrs earlier - he was with his experience...and in hindsight a caretaker coach that gave the club stability after the Blight mess BUT the search for a technical football coach with the technical expertise to actually develop players shouldve started earlier (see what Pier did in targeting Malthouse or Essendon tried with Chocco.....) - I believe Lyon has a great technical grasp of the game....the question Id like him to answer or prove next is CAN he develop players...that takes time. You wont get Lyon week in week out saying he was outcoached or we lost purely cause of a lack of belief clouds...

Your other points are spot on - this Board has at least got some runs on the board......right now Westaways mob have a stack of promises of Premierships.....with little detail.

Do I get this right? You would have moved him on after taking us to within a straight kick of a grand final in 2004?

Seriously teflon you really need to get into reality.

[Teflon]

And, just in case, the Thomas cancer was cut out 2 years too late.

THAT is the mistake Butters and his Board made.

I too hold Butters and the Board accountable for not moving Thomas on 2 yrs earlier - he was with his experience...and in hindsight a caretaker coach that gave the club stability after the Blight mess BUT the search for a technical football coach with the technical expertise to actually develop players shouldve started earlier (see what Pier did in targeting Malthouse or Essendon tried with Chocco.....) - I believe Lyon has a great technical grasp of the game....the question Id like him to answer or prove next is CAN he develop players...that takes time. You wont get Lyon week in week out saying he was outcoached or we lost purely cause of a lack of belief clouds...

Your other points are spot on - this Board has at least got some runs on the board......right now Westaways mob have a stack of promises of Premierships.....with little detail.

Do I get this right? You would have moved him on after taking us to within a straight kick of a grand final in 2004?

Seriously teflon you really need to get into reality.

My apologies...hes been round the media slagging us so much this year I thought he was still coaching...

He shouldve been removed at the end of 05 for mine - when it was apparent we were losing the injury war and our style of play was being stifled by the opposition with little innovation.

I blame Butters and the Board for allowing him an extra year.

[To the top]

JeffDunne, the Annual Report is more difinitive than any Business Plan because it actually chronicles what has transpired.

Further, it will contain statements on any matter which has had a material effect on the operations of the business since the reporting date.

The Business Plan will be predicated off the information included in the Annual Report (because that is what you have and therefore what you must deal with) and projects forward, given a range of assumptions.

This is what is absolutely absent from the presentation of the alternate ticket - so how can anyone give their proxy - unless they are into the personality game, and, if that is the agenda, then we are in trouble.

No one agrees with some one else 100% of the time - it would be a boring world if we did - but any move for change has to be based on what is bought to the table as an enhancement of the business model, which, in this case, supports a footy team on the park and that footy team staying on the park - and not personality.

In regards the personality issue, it is obviously on the table judging by some of the comment made, comments such as Thomas being paid what he was being paid to enable him to pay back the Butters loan.

I may be wrong, but my memory is that Thomas was one of the lowest paid of AFL coaches, on $350,000- PA, when he first started and, 6 years later, and 3 finals appearances later he was on $500,000 PA.

Correct me if I am wrong.

And the remuneration package would have been signed off by the Board.

Some of what we are getting is absolute rubbish.

And the reason we are getting such rubbish is that we have nothing from the alternate ticket to appraise.

[Teflon]

Bottom line is the current Board AT LEAST have experience.
The alternative has shown us nothing other than stickers and internet spin - wheres the plan??? you wanna take over MUST have some sorta plan surely????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[To the top]

To be absolutely precise, and to repeat what I have said elsewhere, I would have moved him on in MID 2004.

That is when I first made the staement that Thomas had bought to the club what he was employed to bring to the club, and right then we needed a footy guy to improve us and advance us further.

Read elsewhere and you will see the reasoning.

The Carlton game, win number 10 for the season, to be precise and after we had kicked 30 goals but had busted the sides pooper valve doing it.

Sitting adjacent to the interchange, you could see it. The rest of the season was going to be an absolute slog because we had shot our bolt - and, that night, Maguire was the beacon signal.

We needed a footy coach then and there.

Don't get carrired away with getting within a kick of Port Adelaide in a Preliminary Final - look at why we had to play that game in Adelaide.

The fact that we had to play that game in Adelaide was the reason we lost.

If you are going to challenge for a premiership, you have to position yourself so you do not have to go on the road during finals - and you have the double chance.

Look at our record under Thomas, not just that we got to, and lost, 2 Prelimary Finals before slumping to an Elimination Final loss.

We had one run of 10 wins, and another run when Kosi was in that vein of form - but we needed that "Kosi run" to put us in contention for a finals berth.

Look at the record. And ask why and why no improvement.

Lyon is coming from behind the eight ball because of Thomas.

[plugger66]

To be absolutely precise, and to repeat what I have said elsewhere, I would have moved him on in MID 2004.

That is when I first made the staement that Thomas had bought to the club what he was employed to bring to the club, and right then we needed a footy guy to improve us and advance us further.

Read elsewhere and you will see the reasoning.

The Carlton game, win number 10 for the season, to be precise and after we had kicked 30 goals but had busted the sides pooper valve doing it.

Sitting adjacent to the interchange, you could see it. The rest of the season was going to be an absolute slog because we had shot our bolt - and, that night, Maguire was the beacon signal.

We needed a footy coach then and there.

Don't get carrired away with getting within a kick of Port Adelaide in a Preliminary Final - look at why we had to play that game in Adelaide.

The fact that we had to play that game in Adelaide was the reason we lost.

If you are going to challenge for a premiership, you have to position yourself so you do not have to go on the road during finals - and you have the double chance.

Look at our record under Thomas, not just that we got to, and lost, 2 Prelimary Finals before slumping to an Elimination Final loss.

We had one run of 10 wins, and another run when Kosi was in that vein of form - but we needed that "Kosi run" to put us in contention for a finals berth.

Look at the record. And ask why and why no improvement.

Lyon is coming from behind the eight ball because of Thomas.

The Carlton game. I saw the guys after that and they were the least tired they had been all year. that is crap.

[saintsRrising]

Disagree srs, would think if the wording of the membership data signed by members is broad enough a database is pretty much up for the highest bidder.

I buy and sell mailing lists regularly.

I regularly run events that companies sponsor...and get mailing lists as part of it.


I have sponsored other events in the past...


On all occasions the sponsorship deal only allows THAT company to use the list.... The company cannot on sell it...WITHOUT seeking permission from the original list provider..in this case the Saints.


Now maybe , just maybe the Saints were slipshod in not having fine print in place when they supplied details to a sponsor....

However the names and addresses would have been supplied for the marketing purposes of that company.


Having the information used for a distinctly different purpose would be to my thinking a breech of the Privacy Legislation......UNLESS the saints were asked.

AND IN PARTICULAR as the material mailed does not have any opt out.

[Joffa Burns]

Thanks srs, you obviously have a good knowledge on this subject.

I think we agree that the StKFC membership database has been acquired by SFF.

If your points are correct (I do not dispute them) then there is the distinct possibility the information was obtained in a less than credible manner.

If that was the case (given your summary) you want think the incumbent Board with their penchant for threatening Legal action would be all over this.

Another thought could be on how the saints may (speculative) have sold their database.

Does anyone know if the information is current?
ie. The 2007 membership list and not 2006 for argument sake.

[JeffDunne]

SFF have a current board member involved don't they?

A current board member would have every right to access the membership list to communicate with members.

One minute SFF are being criticised for not communicating with members - the next they are being criticised for doing so.

Seriously, I think people need to take a deep breathe and stop looking for bogey men under the bed.

[saintsRrising]

SFF have a current board member involved don't they?

A current board member would have every right to access the membership list to communicate with members.

One minute SFF are being criticised for not communicating with members - the next they are being criticised for doing so.

Seriously, I think people need to take a deep breathe and stop looking for bogey men under the bed.

JD....FF have put up as one of their central planks that it is all about the members.



If one of their first acts is in fact a breech of members rights....and not having followed correct process.....then the question needs to be asked is it really MEMBERS FIRST.....or is it more about doing anything to get elected .....ie "the end justifies the means" ?????



Another possiblity is that they did not know better and charged on due to their enthusiasm..... However again FF are stating that they will manage better than the current Board.


But if so can could they really claim ignorance in this area when mail room management is part of the Gregory Business???

SERVICES - Mailroom Management




The Gregorys Mailroom Management Team will take over the day to day operations of your mail room offering the client significant increases in economies as we continually review service and seek labour saving methods.

Gregorys can handle all local, interstate and overseas despatches through its own business partners, offering the client further cost savings.

Gregorys provide mailroom management services to major corporations.

Through experience, Gregorys have established mail centre management processes that are effective and which offer significant increases in efficiencies.

[saintsRrising]

Does anyone know if the information is current?
ie. The 2007 membership list and not 2006 for argument sake.

Joffa...I am assuming that child members cannot vote.

I don't know this...but I would be surprised if it is not the case.



Now my 9 year has been sent a request to giver her Proxy to FF.

I assume other junior members have too judging by other poster's responses.



Now IF it was the case that a legitimate request was put through for FF by the club....then surely they would have just done a run of eligible voters rather all members. Surely the members database would be such that junior members can be excluded.



Or did perhaps someone that did not normally use the database do the list export???

Did someone use another version of the members list and thus could not sort it?

Did FF in their eagerness to get the mail out out just bungle it???...and so the thousands of irrelevant proxies sent out to junior members (if this is the case)...being a waste of their $$$$$. Now you might say that it is their money that they have wasted. But again they have been SCATHING of the current Boards communication with members...and it would appear that their first members mail out was a bodged job. The FF crews platform is that they will be better.

In addition junior members who have been sent proxies may have lodged them. If the vote is adult only....this could create a vary messy vote counting process.

[saintsRrising]

SFF have a current board member involved don't they?

A current board member would have every right to access the membership list to communicate with members.

One minute SFF are being criticised for not communicating with members - the next they are being criticised for doing so.

Seriously, I think people need to take a deep breathe and stop looking for bogey men under the bed.

I expect any Board Member to follow correct procedure.

If in fact Gdanski was the legimate source of the database in a legitmate manner....then all well and good.

[4theluvoftheclub]

Think we can ask the Club for the constitution and they must give it to members. I think (but before am jumped on - am not 100% sure )- that all shareholders ( or in stk's case, members) are allowed to use the shareholder(member) list for proper purposes related to the cpmpany, such as a challenge to a board
. That is how that guy Steve ? got the details of the people who held small numbers of shares in a company, and sent them a letter and bought their shares cheap - he had some shares himself ,so he had rights to access and use the shareholder list for purpose of an offer to buy their shares.

[JeffDunne]

SFF have a current board member involved don't they?

A current board member would have every right to access the membership list to communicate with members.

One minute SFF are being criticised for not communicating with members - the next they are being criticised for doing so.

Seriously, I think people need to take a deep breathe and stop looking for bogey men under the bed.

I expect any Board Member to follow correct procedure.

If in fact Gdanski was the legimate source of the database in a legitmate manner....then all well and good.

If he has a right to it, why would they go through means that aren't legitimate? The rest of the incumbent board I'm sure will use it and so they should.

Like I said, time for people to stop looking for bogeymen under the bed and focus on the real issues.

[saintsRrising]

If he has a right to it, why would they go through means that aren't legitimate? The rest of the incumbent board I'm sure will use it and so they should.

Like I said, time for people to stop looking for bogeymen under the bed and focus on the real issues.

Ok lets assume that Gdanski was the source.

Now.....he would not have the right to log onto a computer direct and export a list....he would have to get a staff member to do this if he is acting legitamately.

Untill he had called the EGM he would not have had legtmate reason to access the list....and it is not appropriate for him to have accessed it in advance in case he one day needs to access it.

As per the Pricay Legislaltion we as members are entitled to know and to be assured that our private inforamtion is handled appropriately.


So on the same day the notice of EGM was called it would appear that FFs mailhouse had the details. This would seem to have been very quick......most obliging of the club to have dropped everything and rushed through such a request so quickly.


I would also note that the communication was not from Gdanski...but from FF.

[JeffDunne]

Untill he had called the EGM he would not have had legtmate reason to access the list.....

Nonsense.

Or should I say nonsense (I presume bolding makes it somehow more relevant).

FWIW, I think I'd respect Gdanski's legal opinion on what he can and cannot do as a sitting board member than I would yours.

You don't think Rod "I'm seeking legal advice" Butterss wouldn't be floating that boat if someone's acted inappropriately?

[Oh When the Saints]

On that issue of legal advice ...

I notice in The Age this morning that two directors are taking legal action over the comments from SFF.

[To the top]

So, Plugger66, what happended to St Kilda's performances post that match v. Carlton?

And what happended to their playing list?

I am talking about their physical well being on the field of play (and when rotated), not later in the change rooms when everyone cracks hardy, especially after win number 10 on the trot.

And, as I say, Maguire was the example, struggling with his groin.

He was not the only one by a long shot.

Carlton were extremely poor opposition, so the players may have been "fresh" after the game, but the underlying problems were there for all to see - if you opened your eyes and you know what you are looking for.

The article in "The Sunday Age" today really says it all doesn't it?

St Kilda is NOT about team, and that is why it has the history it has.

St Kilda, as I contributed earlier about some half-baked's idea of obtaining Judd, is about hero worship and Brownlow Medals.

Not about team photographs hanging on the walls.

Look at North Melbourne by contrast, and their facilities and resources.

Like NM, St Kilda will not compete with the Carlton's, Collingwood's, and the Essendon's.

In these times being a millionaire does not get you much at all.

It is no big deal.

If you have $1 Million in superannuation, a 5% return PA is going to get you $50,000- PA to live on. As I say, no big deal!

Go to a President's lunch at the clubs supported by the "big end of town" and sniff the difference from St Kilda.

St Kilda have to work with what they have, as do all of us, even mere milllionaires.

We want a hard, guts driven footy team on the park, with talent evenly spread and responsibility evenly shared.

Thomas never developed that. He has left, to quote Lyon, "16 players who could do this club service on Grand Final day". Thomas rode on the back of those 16 players, exclusively. And he wore them down and he wore them out.

List development was ignored, which is why we had run our race 10 rounds into 2004 - when our players were stuffed.

Look at the record.

[n1ck]

Fair dinkum yeah you're right.

lets sack a coach whos team has just won 10 straight.

the team is playing wonderful football.

attacking, tough, offensive, accountable football.

this team is odds on for the flag already.

lets sack the coach!

[GeorgeYoung27]

These arguments are all there to support a pre-ordained view. GT was a dud, so I have an argument to support it. Or GT was a good coach and here is why. St Kilda is an unsuccessful team, so here is an argument for that. It's the stuff of the media. With radio and TV now adding opinion pieces to the press, we are bombarded by such theories and then posters like to add theirs.

The league changed dramatically when interstate teams were introduced and then even more so when the effects of socialism took hold. And our club changed dramatically when RB and GT took over. Any arguments like that in the Sunday Age today are fanciful and drawing a long bow to classify a club with a stereotype. The relevence of 8 wooden spoons in the early 1900's to now is only figures in a history book. The cult of Trevor Barker was because he was our only star in a poor team. Fitzroy's flags count for nothing now, the Tigers of the 70's and 80's is folklore to a young Richmond supporter.

[joffaboy]

The article in "The Sunday Age" today really says it all doesn't it?

St Kilda is NOT about team, and that is why it has the history it has.

St Kilda, as I contributed earlier about some half-baked's idea of obtaining Judd, is about hero worship and Brownlow Medals.

Not about team photographs hanging on the walls.

Look at North Melbourne by contrast, and their facilities and resources.

Like NM, St Kilda will not compete with the Carlton's, Collingwood's, and the Essendon's.

Regardless of whom you side with in this debate the above are all very good points.

A big whohaa has been made about our underspend compared to Sydney and WCE.

I would like to see what FFS has got to say about our compared spending to North Melbourne - a club that has made 8 of the past 14 PF's.

It is about the cultural mentality of the club alway looking for the messiah. We thought we had the messiah in Butters and Thomas. Now everyone thiks we have the messiahs with Westaway and Co.

We need to re-asses what we want from the club. We need some heart and competitiveness like the Kangaroos.

I am afraid we may never get it.

[JeffDunne]

JeffDunne, the Annual Report is more difinitive than any Business Plan because it actually chronicles what has transpired.

And in other breaking news . . .

Why do you continually make statements that when challenged reply with the bleeding obvious?

Can I ask you, as I have others, what are the estimates from the current board and where are the forward estimates? What are they forecasting for the coming year in terms of income and memberships numbers? I'm sure they've done it but are we going to be presented this information?

It's nonsense to be targeting the alternative for not presenting something the incumbents haven't. All directors have legal responsibilities and I'm sure the challengers aren't naive enough to be putting up their hands to take on those responsibilities without some knowledge of how those obligations will be met.