Today's scuttlebutt from Caro

[meher baba]

The 'public GT' bends over backwards to be friendly and accomodating when he thinks the public is watching.

The 'private GT' wouldn't p1$$ on you if you were on fire if he thinks he is not in the public eye.

Accurate summation.

Perhaps my two decades in Canberra have made me cynical, but these comments would also apply to a lot of the politicians and VIPs I have encountered: and I have certainly worked closely with quite a few and met many more.

Of course, there are many famous and successful people who are not like this, but they are certainly not in the majority.

His greatest strength, his unwavering self belief in what he is doing, appears also to be his greatest weakness. He is totally inflexible when it comes to criticism of him or his idea(s).

This characteristic is also common, although not quite so much as that of the two-facedness. It is GT's major flaw, and always came through strongly in his public comments and behaviours as coach. It also explains his falilng out with the club's board: he didn't make the board members (who are also VIPs, at least in their own minds) feel that their views on the team and where it was going were of any more importance to him than the current price of pears in eastern Siberia.

This is why I have always thought that GT was the chief architect of his own fall. Nevertheless, the board got it wrong when they sacked him: they should have swallowed both their pride and their distaste for GT as a person and looked objectively at the downsides of sacking a successful coach. That they couldn't do this makes them almost as bad as him IMO.

[saintsRrising]

Nevertheless, the board got it wrong when they sacked him: they should have swallowed both their pride and their distaste for GT as a person and looked objectively at the downsides of sacking a successful coach. That they couldn't do this makes them almost as bad as him IMO.

Geeze...have you not read anything??? The Board looked at his inability to do the job. His inability to add value.

On what basis do you describe him as succesful??

GT was driving us into the ground......destroying what the list should have been....alienating people left right and centre. Ever wonder why he had sucha stream of assistant coaches???

GT wasa very lucky lucky man. If he had arrived at the club at any other time his ineptitude would have been realised more quickly.

GT was holding us back.

**We got into finals DESPITE him because BlightLotto, TimLotto and CarltonCheatingLotto had delivered the saints the best list since we have had since the 60s/early 70s. Winning also this GIFTED to GT a fantastic list.

**Once Waldon left and GT got complete control of the overall drafting recruiting process he frittered away picks and did on the main poor trades.


**Muscled up the list aping the Lions when other teams were all switching to endurance.

**Systematically failed to resolve our fitness and medical management issues. GT presided over an era of the worst fitnes/medical management in the clubs history.

GT given the players he was gifted did a POOR job.

[saintsRrising]

MB if someone wins a $million in Tattslotto...anda year later has $800,000, and then two years later has $600,000....is that person a success beacuse he still has $600,000........or a failure because he has reduced his asset base????

If someone wins Tattslotto ....are they successful or just lucky???


Personally I rate Alves MUCH higher because he built a team into a grand Final.....and was not gifted one.

[meher baba]

sRs: I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

To me, all the claims that GT stuffed up the list are just a load of claptrap. It was Bevo who made the decisions anyway (ask Bevo: and why would he lie given that they are being so heavily criticised nowadays and GT would be a great scapegoat). All the decisions made - except perhaps Fergus Watts (and do you or B4E or the other critics have any real proof that GT was personally responsible for this decision?) - were totally justified on the basis of the information available at the time. To extend your Tattslotto analogy: criticising the selection of the likes of Guerra, Ackland, McGough, McQualter, Gwilt, Sweeney, Raymond, etc. with mid-range draft picks is like criticising someone for picking the wrong Tattslotto numbers.

We did use early draft picks for Brooks, but he looked pretty damn good in the early weeks of the 2003 season.

Re: assistant coaches. GT was totally loyal to Matt Rendell. Were the other assistant coaches who came and went that fantastic? Are any of them doing anything important at any other club right now?

Re: the fitness and injury issue. The problems have continued since GT left the club. We have not been putting sufficient investment into these issues, and are also disadvantaged by having to play so many games on the Dome (think Goddard and Attard this year, think Hamill, Goose and Lenny last year. And others with shorter periods on the sidelines).

[Shaggy]

So why was GT fantastic when you met him?

Do tell.

I approached him with some important stats that I'd compiled.

I had pages of them.

He asked me to sit down with him so we could go through them thoroughly.

That’s very typical of GT’s Jekyll and Hyde persona.

I have heard another poster wanted to sit down and discuss important statistics with GT and GT just brushed him aside and was even quite rude. And there was a good 10 minutes before the game was about to start.

[saintsRrising]

To me, all the claims that GT stuffed up the list are just a load of claptrap. .

To be precise what I have said is that under GT that the list was not as good as it SHOULD be....

[saintsRrising]

Re: the fitness and injury issue. The problems have continued since GT left the club.

Yes....MUCH of the list were hampered when Ross took over..

Change is required and it does not happen over night.


If you buy a termite infested mansion with a leaky roof and poor plumbing....do you expect that on your second day of ownership that it will be completely wonderful???? or do you allow some time for the renovations to occur???

[saintsRrising]

Re: assistant coaches. GT was totally loyal to Matt Rendell. Were the other assistant coaches who came and went that fantastic?
.

Indeed.....

And why do you think GT found it hard to attract quality assistants in the first place?????

[Leo.J]

Re: assistant coaches. GT was totally loyal to Matt Rendell. Were the other assistant coaches who came and went that fantastic?
.

Indeed.....

And why do you think GT found it hard to attract quality assistants in the first place?????

Lack of money in the football dept?

[saintsRrising]

To me, all the claims that GT stuffed up the list are just a load of claptrap. It was Bevo who made the decisions anyway (ask Bevo: and why would he lie given that they are being so heavily criticised nowadays and GT would be a great scapegoat). All the decisions made - except perhaps Fergus Watts (and do you have any real proof that GT was personally responsible for this decision?) - .

Of course I do.. GT was the guy in charge...whether he CHOSE to 100% delegate it or whether he oversaw at least the trades is irrelevant.

As head coach he was responsible and accountable for our playing list and it' s quality...and the PROCESS for doing so. It was HIS choice how this was done.

The BUCK stops with GT on this.

JB can be used to identify prospects....it was GT's call to rank that material and to make the buying decisions.

IF he went 1005 with JBs ranking..then that was his call.


As to JB...and ex club official I spoke with this week said that JB often wanted players that were medically unfit or had behavioural problems (sweeney, Guerra sound familar???). JB could spot talent...but needed that talent vetted. If GT did not vet properly then more fool him....and more victim us.

[Teflon]

Yes Butters will go - he'll have to and yes Grant will win his private war - even AFTER declaring (once he got a better deal for himself on the $1m he owed his one time friend..) that "Rocket was the man to take the club to the level..."

that would have been a repayment of the honour .....that rocket so genuinely gave to him in july '06 wouldnt it ?

St Kilda’s President Rod Butterss said of this achievement, “Thomo is a natural leader who is extremely passionate about the St Kilda Football Club and the sustained success we will achieve at the Club. We are never afraid to push boundaries at the Club and Thomo is always open to fresh ideas that can take the playing group and the St Kilda Football Club towards our common goal.

I dont think Grant got a deal cut on the $1m and decided to repay honour do you??

[Teflon]

What is it with you two? Where does this violent obsession with Thomas come from?

Dont worry bout any obsession with Thomas from Barks or I - whats you obsession with us? WTF?

I have a view...you have...a view... (albeit yours are a tad warped.....still laughing at the "we wont get rid of Brett Voss....cause M Voss will get us...".. )

Its a forum you knob.....geezus...you spend 20 minutes typing up drivel that takes a few lines to dismiss.

[Teflon]

sRs: I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

To me, all the claims that GT stuffed up the list are just a load of claptrap. It was Bevo who made the decisions anyway (ask Bevo: and why would he lie given that they are being so heavily criticised nowadays and GT would be a great scapegoat).

Your seriosuly smokin stuff ..."it was all bevos fault..." listen to yourself man...your arguing the head coach - EVEN IF HE DELEGATED AUTHORITY - for the list is not accountable?

Go back to Nimbin ya troll...

[Teflon]

The hold he has over people however, is brilliant.

The hold you have on your member is also impressive..........

btw.....its turning blue.....time to let go...

[asiu]

disingenuous comment from each party ......was my point

while each seeked their own personal result

[barks4eva]

To me, all the claims that GT stuffed up the list are just a load of claptrap. It was Bevo who made the decisions anyway (ask Bevo: and why would he lie given that they are being so heavily criticised nowadays and GT would be a great scapegoat). All the decisions made - except perhaps Fergus Watts (and do you or B4E or the other critics have any real proof that GT was personally responsible for this decision?) ).

YES I KNOW IT AS FACT!


Rendell chose to select Brooks, Guerra, Ackland with Thomas's approval

Beveridge was consulted on Brooks, but the decision was Rendell's and was backed up by Thomas

The decision to draft McGough was 100% made by Grant Thomas and Grant Thomas alone!

The decision also to draft Raph Clarke while we are on the subject was also 100% Grant Thomas, fwif, btw, I was pleased to get Raph, still think he will be a very good player for us and am not critical of this, although others might now be


meher babbles a lot, please don't hesitate to deliver another war and peace, bigger than ben hur length post of your UNINFORMED drivel

Beveridge did not make the call on Brooks, Guerra, Ackland, McGough, R. Clarke

the first three were Rendell, backed by Thomas
the second two were 100% Grant Thomas

FACT!

[meher baba]

meher babbles a lot, please don't hesitate to deliver another war and peace, bigger than ben hur length post of your UNINFORMED drivel

Pot. Kettle.

[barks4eva]

meher, you can lead a horse to water >

see above post

[meher baba]

What is it with you two? Where does this violent obsession with Thomas come from?

Dont worry bout any obsession with Thomas from Barks or I - whats you obsession with us? WTF?

I have a view...you have...a view... (albeit yours are a tad warped.....still laughing at the "we wont get rid of Brett Voss....cause M Voss will get us...".. )

Its a forum you knob.....geezus...you spend 20 minutes typing up drivel that takes a few lines to dismiss.

I have no problem with differing views. I have an enormous problem with people who post endless abuse of GT, the players, other posters, etc...............

I prefer debate and analysis to this tedious and harping criticism from posters who I very much doubt could do any better if given the opportunity.

As for Brett Voss, I never said that M Voss was "going to get us", I said that the fact that he was Brett's brother might make the club think twice about brutally and unceremoniously dumping him in the way that we did, for example, to Capuano or TS 40. As it turns out, rumour has it that Brett is going to be shown some respect and allowed to announce his retirement.

Why are you so certain that I'm wrong about this? All you've done is be totally rude and abusive, as always, rather than present some arguments against it. (What are they, anyway? Rod Butterss is such a straight and upfront guy that he'd never take any account of what prominent AFL people and journos would think? Wouldn't, for example, recruit Ross Lyon and Matthew Clarke on that basis?)

It's about time you learnt some manners. At least B4E has the excuse of being half crazy and obsessed. What's yours?

[barks4eva]

At least B4E has the excuse of being half crazy

only half crazy, you're too kind, once again I suspect you only know half the story

[meher baba]

At least B4E has the excuse of being half crazy

only half crazy, you're too kind, once again I suspect you only know half the story

[Joffa Burns]

The decision also to draft Raph Clarke while we are on the subject was also 100% Grant Thomas, fwif, btw, I was pleased to get Raph, still think he will be a very good player for us and am not critical of this, although others might now be

I don't doubt the accuracy of the information but I'd love to see your proof of fact Barks.

As for the Raph part I had heard Bevo wanted Troy Chaplin but was overruled on Raph.

For all I know it could be cr@p as they may not have been in the same draft.

[Teflon]

disingenuous comment from each party ......was my point

while each seeked their own personal result

Im genuinley not convinced Butters at one time didnt think the entire sun wasnt shining out Grants bum.....hes very persuasive is old Grant and while that makes Rod look like hes been taken for a sucker he wouldnt be the first....

[Teflon]

What is it with you two? Where does this violent obsession with Thomas come from?

Dont worry bout any obsession with Thomas from Barks or I - whats you obsession with us? WTF?

I have a view...you have...a view... (albeit yours are a tad warped.....still laughing at the "we wont get rid of Brett Voss....cause M Voss will get us...".. )

Its a forum you knob.....geezus...you spend 20 minutes typing up drivel that takes a few lines to dismiss.

I have no problem with differing views. I have an enormous problem with people who post endless abuse of GT, the players, other posters, etc...............

I prefer debate and analysis to this tedious and harping criticism from posters who I very much doubt could do any better if given the opportunity.

As for Brett Voss, I never said that M Voss was "going to get us", I said that the fact that he was Brett's brother might make the club think twice about brutally and unceremoniously dumping him in the way that we did, for example, to Capuano or TS 40. As it turns out, rumour has it that Brett is going to be shown some respect and allowed to announce his retirement.

Why are you so certain that I'm wrong about this? All you've done is be totally rude and abusive, as always, rather than present some arguments against it. (What are they, anyway? Rod Butterss is such a straight and upfront guy that he'd never take any account of what prominent AFL people and journos would think? Wouldn't, for example, recruit Ross Lyon and Matthew Clarke on that basis?)

It's about time you learnt some manners. At least B4E has the excuse of being half crazy and obsessed. What's yours?

You dont present "argument" you present your opinion as FACT - you did say wed think twice on getting rid of B Voss because of M Voss - I and many others laughed at the ridiculous comment and now your trying to suggest you meant something else and you were right?

I dont waste manners on imbeciles who go round ignoring posters who actually DO have some inside knowledge and grasp of certain facts....

[saintsRrising]

As for the Raph part I had heard Bevo wanted Troy Chaplin but was overruled on Raph.

For all I know it could be cr@p as they may not have been in the same draft.

2003 Draft

Round Pick Club Player Name Club From Dob Height Weight
Priority 1 Western Bulldogs Adam Cooney West Adelaide 30/09/85 186 81
Priority 2 Carlton Andrew Walker Bendigo Pioneers 18/05/85 189 83
Priority 3 Melbourne Colin Sylvia Bendigo Pioneers 8/11/85 184 85
1 4 Western Bulldogs Farren Ray Peel Thunder 23/03/86 183 74
1 5 Melbourne Brock Mclean Calder Cannons 11/03/86 183 86
1 6 Essendon Kepler Bradley West Perth 13/11/85 198 86
1 7 Geelong Kane Tenace Murray Bushrangers 4/07/85 182 78
1 8 St Kilda Raphael Clarke St Marys (Nt) 24/09/85 188 77 1 9 Kangaroos David Trotter Calder Cannons 4/03/86 185 80
1 10 Fremantle Ryley Dunn Murray Bushrangers 7/10/85 184 83
1 11 West Coast Beau Waters West Adelaide 30/03/86 187 85
1 12 Fremantle Ryan Murphy Gippsland Power 24/05/85 192 81
1 13 Essendon Brent Stanton Northern Knights 1/05/86 181 78
1 14 Adelaide Fergus Watts Sandringham Dragons 21/09/85 197 86
1 15 Port Adelaide Troy Chaplin North Ballarat Rebels 23/02/86 194 89
1