Who would you axe?

[Otiman]

As for Jones, most people seem to be sold on him already, so i'm preaching to the choir.

According to finalsiren.com stats on "rising stars",

To be eligible players must have played in no more than 50 games before the start of the selected season and must have played in at least 5 games over the currently selected or previous season

As far as I can tell, they use Champion Data rankings.

CJ rates #179

Other saints of note:

Gram #33
Gilbert #45
L. Fisher #68
Gwilt #105
McQualter #130
R. Clarke #135

[Solar]

20 goals this year for Casey only - but you omit to mention "playing as a ruckman", which he should have done last year instead of playing as a forward and kicking 40 odd goals in a side which could not win a game.

And you want to ruck Blake!

Then, on top of that you promote Rix!!

And we are going to draft players.

Plus, Casey, where you denigrate form (or is that just Brooks' form?), will be too top heavy. Too top heavy for what? There is a problem with the 12/10 rule, and a reason why SA & WA clubs better prepare their list players for an AFL career. But that is what having an VFL affiliate is all about, and it is not to St Kilda's benefit, acknowledged.

So can I turn your agenda around to what it is - to promote Blake and Rix so they are not de-listed?

Rix does not have soft enough hands to take a mark - he puts his hands out and the ball bounces off. Plus, if he gets a free kick, he can not kick and can not hand-ball. He moves like a mechanical doll.

Your reasoning has done your credibility in in my view.

So, what do others think of continuing with Rix and Blake as our ruck combination in 2008 (because Gardiner has to actually stand up and we are not going to know that until the trial games commence - then there is a season to go!) - and delisting Brooks?

I know. We could ruck Maguire because we have rucked him before.

Or perhaps Milne standing on Blake's shoulders!!

agreed totally
If brooks goes it means we are relying on watts (struggled injury wise for the past 2 years), allen (very young) and kosi (who unless we get a cox will ruck for most of it).

So yes brooks didn't get a game cause he was behind gehrig, kosi and roo. The coach said that. Now it's not that simple.

Plus you never know, he might give us ruck depth as an added bonus.

Oh and when has plugger66 ever given us anything of note?? He even admitted it himself at one stage that he just guesses very well.

[Otiman]

Gwilt is contracted to the end of 2008, for all those calling to Axe him.

Develop him as a marking forward! He is still not a defenders arsehole.

[meher baba]

Oh and when has plugger66 ever given us anything of note?? He even admitted it himself at one stage that he just guesses very well.

That's what i would say too if I was actually privy to the good oil. People who know things have to be very careful what they post given all the journos who scour this forum.

I can't recall plugger66 predicting anything that didn't turn out to be the case. I would assume that it's bye bye BB, and possibly Fergs as well.

[Solar]

Oh and when has plugger66 ever given us anything of note?? He even admitted it himself at one stage that he just guesses very well.

That's what i would say too if I was actually privy to the good oil. People who know things have to be very careful what they post given all the journos who scour this forum.

I can't recall plugger66 predicting anything that didn't turn out to be the case. I would assume that it's bye bye BB, and possibly Fergs as well.

sheesh yet you can't remember anything he did predict "with great inside knowledge"? Sounds like hutchy mark 2

[Otiman]

between plugger and bono, we generally have a good idea of any team changes during the week. There have been a few times when they were off the mark, but track record says to believe more often than not. Plugger in particular offers his own thoughts on quite a few things.

Beyond some trivial team changes, I wouldn't expect them to release more sensitive information.

[Oh When the Saints]

Out this season will be G, M clarke, Voss and Thommo retired. Delistings will be Raymond, Sweeney, Brooks and Ferg is in trouble. 7-8 out 2 promoted to main list. Not sure who they will be. One preseason pick and 4-5 draft picks.

Fascinating info, if correct (and it usually is from this source).

I can't really argue with ....................

ETC.

Not my preferred style to watch, but - if it works properly - it could be pretty damn effective.

Never thought I'd find myself saying this, but ....

That was a terrific post meher baba (I didn't quote the whole thing, but it was spot on)

Very accurate assessment.


On Milne ....


He kicked 31 goals in the lowest scoring team in the AFL. In the highest scoring team in the AFL two years ago, he doubled that.

He also averaged about 1.5 assists for the season .... so that's another 33 goals he set up.

Milne thus has contributed around 60 goals of our scoring this year, or about 20% of our total score for the year.


That's significant.


You remove Milne from the team, you have to find that 20% score somewhere else .... and then add even more on top of it.


Milne has improved his game this year and become a better general footballer - something that started last year under GT.


He is also an integral part of the playing group, and if Vossy retires will be the 4th oldest player on our list.

[spert]

I'm curious as to how people are basing anything around Gardiner - I doubt whether his foot problems will let him play more than a handful of games at any time in the future, same scenario as Hamill with his ongoing problems...their best days are gone. I would be looking at another young ruckman somewhere in the draft to develop

[st_Trav_ofWA]

You get down to casey much this year to watch Brooks?

no mate but i saw every saints match and all but one he didnt get named
RL doesnt rate him GT didnt rate him you dont have to be a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion hes not an AFL standard player heck names like Harrison Carmody, Makepeace are in the best players lists most weeks in the vfl we dont see them on an afl list do you ? Brooks is a VFL standard player thats it
the team has carried him for 5 years enuff is enuff

[mad saint guy]

no mate but i saw every saints match and all but one he didnt get named

He was named to play 4 times, and was a late exclusion twice. He would have kept his spot after his first game against the Bulldogs if not for a hammy strain. He had 7 disposals from about 40 minutes of game time before his injury.

I'm curious as to how people are basing anything around Gardiner - I doubt whether his foot problems will let him play more than a handful of games at any time in the future

I don't think Gardiner's situation is the similar to Hamill's. He did his knee in 2004. When he returned he wasn't quite right due to both knee and foot problems. He then got over his knee problems in 2006 and had his feet right for most of the year. Due to club suspension he only played a few games.

He previously had a problem with one foot and had it fixed. His other foot was troubling him at the start of the year, but he thought he could play through it. The problem got worse and he decided to have surgery mid-season. Now both feet should be fine and his knees have been fine for a couple of years. If he can't manage 16 decent games next year he should retire/be delisted.

[barks4eva]

Delist six players

Blake, time to exit him out
Birss, runs around like an anaethetized ostrich
Raymond, nobody loves Raymond
Voss, too slow, yesterday's news
Howard, getting rid of Howard in 2007 seems to be the order of the day

McQualter, might get us a third round selection

I'd keep Brooks, but if he must go then we need to get something for him even if it is only another third round selection, as Thomas and Rendell gave away pick 6 and 31 for him, as if pick 6 wasn't enough already

Definitely keep Ferguson and play him on a half forward flank, needs and deserves more opportunities

Is there any way we can axe Thomas again?, I enjoyed it so much the first time

[Dan Warna]

Delist six players

Blake, time to exit him out
Birss, runs around like an anaethetized ostrich
Raymond, nobody loves Raymond
Voss, too slow, yesterday's news
Howard, getting rid of Howard in 2007 seems to be the order of the day

McQualter, might get us a third round selection

I'd keep Brooks, but if he must go then we need to get something for him even if it is only another third round selection, as Thomas and Rendell gave away pick 6 and 31 for him, as if pick 6 wasn't enough already

6 players on top of the retirements? ><

also keep rix?
cough cough lol

Blake may go next year, not this year, RL plays him every game,

Birss, will get another season, not greaet very ordinary, but good support crew for the a team midfield, slightly better version of mcgough.

haven't seen raymond know nothing off him.

howard, haven't seen howard know nothing off him

V2...faster than Birss still on contract will be a OP top up player in 08.

McQualter - still only 21, if we got rid of monty at the same age!!!


--------

i think brooks is gone, may get a chance at another club in a late pick
i think V2 is gone

that is about it.

will be 4 draft picks at least and a trade for GOPs at the edges.

can't really see pick 76 being better than mcqualter

[plugger66]

20 goals this year for Casey only - but you omit to mention "playing as a ruckman", which he should have done last year instead of playing as a forward and kicking 40 odd goals in a side which could not win a game.

And you want to ruck Blake!

Then, on top of that you promote Rix!!

And we are going to draft players.

Plus, Casey, where you denigrate form (or is that just Brooks' form?), will be too top heavy. Too top heavy for what? There is a problem with the 12/10 rule, and a reason why SA & WA clubs better prepare their list players for an AFL career. But that is what having an VFL affiliate is all about, and it is not to St Kilda's benefit, acknowledged.

So can I turn your agenda around to what it is - to promote Blake and Rix so they are not de-listed?

Rix does not have soft enough hands to take a mark - he puts his hands out and the ball bounces off. Plus, if he gets a free kick, he can not kick and can not hand-ball. He moves like a mechanical doll.

Your reasoning has done your credibility in in my view.

So, what do others think of continuing with Rix and Blake as our ruck combination in 2008 (because Gardiner has to actually stand up and we are not going to know that until the trial games commence - then there is a season to go!) - and delisting Brooks?

I know. We could ruck Maguire because we have rucked him before.

Or perhaps Milne standing on Blake's shoulders!!

Yes Brooks has played half the games in the ruck and the others up forward so he averaging about 2 goals a games up forward in the VFL side. Not great for a player who is going to be a forward if he plays AFL level.

Rix is very ordinary player but it was RL who preferred him to Brooks all this year not me so yes he still will be first back up. Blake I have heard will be the second ruckman who every rucks. they think he can play the role on the oppositions back up ruckman.

If it was up to me I would get rid of Brooks and Rix so that certainly is not my agenda.

Also agree the interstate have an advantage in that they could have 8 ruckman if they wanted to and all could play in the ruck for their affiliate clubs.

I have answered your questions even if you disagree can you just answer one for me. Why has he played 3 games in 2 years under 2 different coaches when we have had a shocking run with injuries.?

[Shaggy]

Lol … Plugger you and SR are the ones touting Brooks as a forward only.

Brooksy has only kicked 10 goals this year not 20. He only kicked 16 goals last year. It was 2005 when he was played as a permanent KPP forward he kicked 42 goals.

Brooksy is regularly in the best now because of his work as a ruck not as a forward.

As for RL he obviously came to the club with pre-conceptions about rucks … MG, Clarke and Rix were of a size he liked … Kosi, JB, Brooks and Sugar were not.

We have now done a complete turnaround. Sugar left before RL tried to turn him into a back man and Kosi and JB are now seen as our best ruck options.

RL just got our rucks all wrong this year including Brooksy.

As for GT I think he would have played Brooks most of this year. He promoted him end of last year when Brooksy came good. Remember in 2005 (Eames) and first half of 2006 (Rix and missed a fair bit due to injury) Brooks rarely rucked at Casey and his form did not demand promotion.

Brooks has now been named in best 9 out of past 18 games. He has towelled up players like Richards and Bryan in the VFL. Richards form in the AFL since hasn't been too bad (compared to Rixy anyway). Brooksy never showed this form before the latter half of last year when he was finally given prime ruck responsibility at Casey.

[bigcarl]

Lol … Plugger you and SR are the ones touting Brooks as a forward only.

Brooksy has only kicked 10 goals this year not 20. He only kicked 16 goals last year. It was 2005 when he was played as a permanent KPP forward he kicked 42 goals.

Brooksy is regularly in the best now because of his work as a ruck not as a forward.

As for RL he obviously came to the club with pre-conceptions about rucks … MG, Clarke and Rix were of a size he liked … Kosi, JB, Brooks and Sugar were not.

We have now done a complete turnaround. Sugar left before RL tried to turn him into a back man and Kosi and JB are now seen as our best ruck options.

RL just got our rucks all wrong this year including Brooksy.

As for GT I think he would have played Brooks most of this year. He promoted him end of last year when Brooksy came good. Remember in 2005 (Eames) and first half of 2006 (Rix and missed a fair bit due to injury) Brooks rarely rucked at Casey and his form did not demand promotion.

Brooks has now been named in best 9 out of past 18 games. He has towelled up players like Richards and Bryan in the VFL. Richards form in the AFL since hasn't been too bad (compared to Rixy anyway). Brooksy never showed this form before the latter half of last year when he was finally given prime ruck responsibility at Casey.

good post. i hope "rossy" reads this

[plugger66]

Lol … Plugger you and SR are the ones touting Brooks as a forward only.

Brooksy has only kicked 10 goals this year not 20. He only kicked 16 goals last year. It was 2005 when he was played as a permanent KPP forward he kicked 42 goals.

Brooksy is regularly in the best now because of his work as a ruck not as a forward.

As for RL he obviously came to the club with pre-conceptions about rucks … MG, Clarke and Rix were of a size he liked … Kosi, JB, Brooks and Sugar were not.

We have now done a complete turnaround. Sugar left before RL tried to turn him into a back man and Kosi and JB are now seen as our best ruck options.

RL just got our rucks all wrong this year including Brooksy.

As for GT I think he would have played Brooks most of this year. He promoted him end of last year when Brooksy came good. Remember in 2005 (Eames) and first half of 2006 (Rix and missed a fair bit due to injury) Brooks rarely rucked at Casey and his form did not demand promotion.

Brooks has now been named in best 9 out of past 18 games. He has towelled up players like Richards and Bryan in the VFL. Richards form in the AFL since hasn't been too bad (compared to Rixy anyway). Brooksy never showed this form before the latter half of last year when he was finally given prime ruck responsibility at Casey.

I have said this many times. I have seen 7 games this year at Scorps and not once was Brooks first ruck. He was forward and rucked occasionly. When a ruckman is dropped from the Saints Brooks isnt first ruck. In 2 of the games I saw VR was the first ruck over Brooks. RL said just recently Brooks is competing with Kosi, Rooy and G so that means if he ever plays it will be as a forward.

3 games in 2 years under 2 coaches are the facts. I am not the one not playing him it was GT and is now RL.

[saintbart]

This goes back to the problem identified in another thread on here where STKFC does not fully control what happens at Casey and that our own VFL team would do this, but would be expensive

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Brooks has now been named in best 9 out of past 18 games. He has towelled up players like Richards and Bryan in the VFL. Richards form in the AFL since hasn't been too bad (compared to Rixy anyway). Brooksy never showed this form before the latter half of last year when he was finally given prime ruck responsibility at Casey.

again richards and bryan are a long long way from Cox Sandilands Lade....

again there are lots of guys who are greats in the VFL SANFL and WAFL but dont make the cut to AFL level Brooks is that

[To the top]

Plugger66

1) It is structure. Lyon was quoted as saying that Watts and Brooks were behind Roo, Kosi and Gehrig. So, by extension, he does not view Brooks as a lead ruckman but as a support ruckman who can basically, but not exclusively, play forward. I would summise that Brooks, at least initially, sits behind Kosi in the pecking order, but Kosi can (read "is forced to") lead the rucks because neither M.Clarke nor Rix was up to it. With Gehrig gone things are different, and they will be different again if Gardiner stands up.

Without Gehrig we will want Kosi in attack, at either CHF (where I would prefer him for a raft of reasons including freeing Roo to dominate all over the ground) or FF, but NOT rucking.

In terms of Brooks being a lead ruckman, he is not because, like Kosi, he is just too short at 198cm. He turns and palms backwards and does not have the versatility to do something different - so he is a support ruckman - at this stage.

So you look at him as the back up ruckman who can do some damage forward because he retains the option of 3 talls and, in terms of Watts, read what Gehrig says about one position players. So, can Watts ruck?

I believe that the reason Blake is played in ruck is solely because of the deficiency in our mids - so he basically plays as a "bonus" mid because we do not have the numbers - and the mids is where the emphasis is.

2) Adelaide and Port Adelaide drafted players are put in a draft and can finish up with any side (unless they come from a SA side) so they get to play SANFL footy. And if they are not getting a league game they can ask to go to another side - or their AFL side can send them to another side.
Far better education.


The optimum, if they fire, and in my view, would be Kosi at CHF, Watts at FF and Brooks periodically lurking in a pocket and taking some ruck time.

[plugger66]

Plugger66

1) It is structure. Lyon was quoted as saying that Watts and Brooks were behind Roo, Kosi and Gehrig. So, by extension, he does not view Brooks as a lead ruckman but as a support ruckman who can basically, but not exclusively, play forward. I would summise that Brooks, at least initially, sits behind Kosi in the pecking order, but Kosi can (read "is forced to") lead the rucks because neither M.Clarke nor Rix was up to it. With Gehrig gone things are different, and they will be different again if Gardiner stands up.

Without Gehrig we will want Kosi in attack, at either CHF (where I would prefer him for a raft of reasons including freeing Roo to dominate all over the ground) or FF, but NOT rucking.

In terms of Brooks being a lead ruckman, he is not because, like Kosi, he is just too short at 198cm. He turns and palms backwards and does not have the versatility to do something different - so he is a support ruckman - at this stage.

So you look at him as the back up ruckman who can do some damage forward because he retains the option of 3 talls and, in terms of Watts, read what Gehrig says about one position players. So, can Watts ruck?

I believe that the reason Blake is played in ruck is solely because of the deficiency in our mids - so he basically plays as a "bonus" mid because we do not have the numbers - and the mids is where the emphasis is.

2) Adelaide and Port Adelaide drafted players are put in a draft and can finish up with any side (unless they come from a SA side) so they get to play SANFL footy. And if they are not getting a league game they can ask to go to another side - or their AFL side can send them to another side.
Far better education.


The optimum, if they fire, and in my view, would be Kosi at CHF, Watts at FF and Brooks periodically lurking in a pocket and taking some ruck time.

Well if that was our forward line next season we are in alot of trouble. 2 of them kicked about 35 goals in our second side this year. By the way can you please tell me why he has played 3 games in 2 years under 2 different coaches when we had alot of injuries.

[Shaggy]

I have said this many times. I have seen 7 games this year at Scorps and not once was Brooks first ruck. He was forward and rucked occasionly. When a ruckman is dropped from the Saints Brooks isnt first ruck. In 2 of the games I saw VR was the first ruck over Brooks. RL said just recently Brooks is competing with Kosi, Rooy and G so that means if he ever plays it will be as a forward.

3 games in 2 years under 2 coaches are the facts. I am not the one not playing him it was GT and is now RL.

1 best in 3 AFL games is a fact also (33% strike rate). GT said on SEN he would have played Brooks in the Melbourne final if it had not been for the wet conditions.

I don’t dispute when Clarke or Rix play at Casey Brooks spends more time on the forward line. Why? Because where else are you going to play Clarke or Rix?

If Clarke and Rix are in the ones together you don’t see Kosi rucking either. Not because Kosi isn’t better but because Clarke and Rix can’t make a contribution unless they are rucking.

IMO the fact that Brooksy is not a one trick pony works against him.

Time to rotate MG, Kosi and Brooks between the FF line and ruck. Leave the bench for mid fielders recovery rather than Rixy’s bum.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

[

1 best in 3 AFL games is a fact also (33% strike rate). GT said on SEN he would have played Brooks in the Melbourne final if it had not been for the wet conditions.

why do people still hang on to that one game against brissy who did he play on ??
where were bris on the ladder ? how were we traveling as a team then ??
one good game in the last game of the year that had no impact on the finals then 2 more games in the entire time after that !!! serioulsy

and plugger66 i count 3 coachs who didnt play brooks two at stkilda one at port

[Shaggy]

[

1 best in 3 AFL games is a fact also (33% strike rate). GT said on SEN he would have played Brooks in the Melbourne final if it had not been for the wet conditions.

why do people still hang on to that one game against brissy who did he play on ??
where were bris on the ladder ? how were we traveling as a team then ??
one good game in the last game of the year that had no impact on the finals then 2 more games in the entire time after that !!! serioulsy

and plugger66 i count 3 coachs who didnt play brooks two at stkilda one at port

I don't hang onto that one game against Brisbane. Brooks being named in best 9 out of last 18 games is more important.

You and Plugger are the ones who are hanging onto the fact that he has only played 3 games of AFL in the last 2 years as being some sort of justification for delisting him regardless of his form. If the number of AFL games he has played is so important then surely so to is how he performed in those 3 games .

[mad saint guy]

Blake, time to exit him out
Birss, runs around like an anaethetized ostrich
Raymond, nobody loves Raymond
Voss, too slow, yesterday's news
Howard, getting rid of Howard in 2007 seems to be the order of the day

Definitely keep Ferguson and play him on a half forward flank, needs and deserves more opportunities

Blake has played every game this year and has done a decent job in about 18 of them. He is a better option in the ruck than Rix and his versatility is extremely useful if we want to switch things around on match day. He's not in our best 22, but reaslistically he will play at least 18 games next year.

Birss is a better option as a backup onballer than McQualter and Armitage. We need him in the side. He is no gun, but he is a decent fringe player who has exceeded expectations this year. You don't sack someone because they look awkward when running.

Agree on Voss, and Howard has to be a joke.

Ferguson hasn't played forward for 4 years. That is because he was a failure in the forward line. At VFL level he did nothing of note and couldn't do enough to break into the senior side. So he was then moved into defence, where he has become a reasonable player. He is a long way behind S.Fisher, L.Fisher, Blake and R.Clarke, so isn't needed. Delist him.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

how did he go in the other 2 ???
this is professional footy if he cant make the seniors hes takeing up space for some on who can !!!