Max King

[spert]

Can we please make it easier for the big fella by trying to put the ball on his chest rather than these rainmakers that invariably see him crunched by 2-3 defenders. We got a lot better at lowering the eyes in the second half of the season, let's see it continue next year.

What's the point of recruiting a tall lanky 6' 8" player as your full forward if the idea is to 'make it easier' for him by hitting him up on the chest?

Membrey, Owens, Sharman and even Butler and Higgins are capable of leading and marking on their chest too.

I remember a game against Brisbane at the Gabba midway through 2022 where Max was playing against Harris Andrews and he showed everyone his value as a tall marking option. When he gets airborne, not even Andrews has the reach to be able to spoil.

We were in front at half time by 12 points before Owens and McKenzie both suffered severe concussions and also Zak Jones went off injured in the 3rd quarter with a hamstring.

Incidentally, Max was the difference in the game against Adelaide (in Adelaide) a couple of weeks before the Gabba match where he kicked 6 goals straight. We were flying before injuries curtailed our year and it cost Ratts his job.

Anyhoo...back to King and the long term deal..he said this;

"There is pressure and I think if you ignore it and pretend it’s not there you’re in a bit of trouble, but I guess it’s about learning to accept the pressure and deal with it"

His captain said this;

Expectations are a compliment that prove one player, or many, are capable of more.

People forget how injuries stuffed us that year, especially to onballers and cost us against Brisbane, and many other games- but that was Ratt's fault apparently.

[St Dave]

Without doing any analysis on the quality of opposition or home vs away etc, over the last two seasons (47 games) we have won 10 games with King and won 14 games without him. Seems like we are slightly better without him.

Interesting stats. Thanks.

I’m not great at percentages, does that mean we’ve won 40 per cent more games - over the past two seasons - without King than with?

Of the ones we lost, I’m wondering how many could have been won were we not mindlessly bombing it to an outnumbered Max.

Look, don’t get me wrong, I rate King as a talent very highly. My problem is with a gameplan and structure that places an overreliance on any one player. The club needs to get on top if it. Let’s hope the lessons have been learned … but I wouldn’t count on it.

Btw, could you clear up how you arrived at those figures? If there were 47 games in the past two seasons and we won 10 with King and 14 without, what happened to the other 23 games? Sincerely it confuses me. I don’t quite get it.

On actual scoring, I’d like to see a comparative statistical analysis of the latter part of this season when we finally got the multi pronged forward line going. I couldn’t be bothered doing the research, but from memory we kicked some particularly high scores for Ross Lyon coached teams

That kind of win/loss analysis isn't really useful because the sample size is pretty small and without controlling for things like the strength of the opposition it is too open to a lucky/unlucky run of games either way. Win/loss is also outside the direct control of any one player (as King Max demonstrates) so it isn't really a useful metric for judging individual performance.

That was why I looked more at team scoring potency over the following paragraphs, because that is a bit more directly influenced by Max's performance/absence (still not a perfect), though again I haven't controlled for anything, it is purely the numbers. I also wanted to explore the idea that we performed better without Max because I was thinking exactly that until I looked at the numbers.

Regarding the other 23 games (actually 22 games, I must have made a typo, because we play 23 games a season for 46 games over 2 seasons), we just lost them, I was only noting the win numbers, not the loss numbers. Max played 23 games over the two seasons I looked at, so we lost 13 games with Max and 9 games without him.

I agree, that later part of the year seemed better. We were regularly around 100 points and our ball movement was generally much better (I think we were one of the best at moving the ball from defense to attack in the second half of the year), however we had some shockers too including the losses to Brisbane and Adelaide that drag the average back down to around 83 points (or an extra goal on without him over the full two seasons).

I would back the coaches in to learn the right lesson from the back half of the season. We were all screaming out for lowering the eyes and hitting leading targets and we appeared to do that more in the second half of last year. I don't know enough to say if (or when) we changed anything, or maybe it was always the plan but it finally clicked as opponents got tired in the back half of the year.

[Scollop]

People forget how injuries stuffed us that year, especially to onballers and cost us against Brisbane, and many other games- but that was Ratt's fault apparently.

Well... that's where I come in and remind them

Apparently we're on the right track now ..but we weren't 2 years ago. The team under Ratts in 2022 had 11 wins in total from 22 matches.

Under Ross Lyon this year, we had 11 wins in total from 23 matches. The AFL had an extra round of footy for all teams.

In Ratts last year in 2022 ...Jarryn Geary played zero games. Dan Hannebery played 3 games in total. Hunter Clark only 8 games. Mich Owens only 7 games for the whole year...

Jack Steele had shoulder surgery in May 22 and was supposed to miss months...he came back after a few weeks. He didn't recapture his form until late in the year. Paddy Ryder was integral to the team. He was in and out of the side with only 12 games. Dan McKenzie was basically like our Mason Wood - also just 12 games. Zak Jones played only 13.

In Ratts last period of drafting we picked up Owens, Windhager and Nasiah Wanganeen-Millera. One month after he was sacked we picked up Mattaes Phillipou.

Lethlean and the St Kilda hierarchy had already decided to go down the path of giving up our draft picks BEFORE Brett Ratten was appointed. Ratten wasn't given the chance to build a proper list. Ratten inherited a mess from a decade of incompetence.

Lethlean gave up our 2019 and 2020 best draft picks for ready made senior players...as well as giving up on a young Blake Acres. Thankfully the club picked up Mason Wood who has been a great recruit and a very capable replacement for Blake.

The decision in 2021 to get Nasiah Wanganeen-Millera, Windhager and Owens was the turning point. They realised their mistakes. They realised we needed to rebuild through the draft. Phillipou and Wilson confirms this.

The growth will come from our young players. Hopefully the team continues to play a good brand (which they did WITHOUT Sebby, and without Crouch and without a slow inside mid like Mcrae)... and hopefully we continue to bring in young talent.

[maverick]

I have to respond here

In Ratts last year
We were terribly unfit
We had no idea one week to the next how we were going to play
We got run over so many times after half time it was embarrassing
Players went backwards

In lyons first year
We won first 5 games without a forward line
There was consistent effort all year
Players developed
Fitness was evident

2nd year
Went backwards
Poor 1st half year
Good 2nd half
Beat quality teams
Lost lots of close games
Still poor midfield


I for one was happy ratts left

[Jacks Back]

I reckon he will be the power forward like no other. He looks really strong in the videos and looks to have a single kindness about him.

I hope he's not TOO kind though.

[Scollop]

In Ratts last year
We were terribly unfit
We had no idea one week to the next how we were going to play
We got run over so many times after half time it was embarrassing
Players went backwards

In lyons first year
We won first 5 games without a forward line
There was consistent effort all year
Players developed
Fitness was evident

2nd year
Went backwards
Poor 1st half year
Good 2nd half
Beat quality teams
Lost lots of close games
Still poor midfield

I for one was happy ratts left

Ratts didn't leave. We sacked him 4 months after giving him a contract extension.

Once we started getting injuries mid year in 2022, Ratts realised he wasn't going to win a Premiership. He knew that and the club knew that.

I didn't know the senior coach in 2022 was in charge of fitness and conditioning. Thanks for the info

I like what I saw on field in the last 8 rounds of this year. I honestly hope Ross can leave a legacy at the St Kilda FC.

If the team play exciting footy in 2025 and there's continued connection, and we have strong player leadership and good emerging young leaders, then that's all we can hope for. Everything else will fall into place after that

[Killa]

What is fact is that Brett addressed our development programme when arriving as an Assistant to his friend Richardson

The programme was virtually non existent

When taking over as Senior Coach the challenge was put to our younger brigade to push past our established players and to frame their own credentials

There was also the focus on building a family Club, where Jo joined Brett

Brett was advised that he was required to meet with the Board on the following day (and he advised certain to not be surprised if he lost his position)

At that meeting Brett was invited to present his credentials and his program which the Board had no issue with - in fact agreeing including in regards Brett’s appraisal of where St Kilda sat in the pecking order (pretty low)

Speculation was that external parties were active in this process including influential former players - but this assessment was speculation and not confirmed

So was the promoting of Lyon in the wings - do not know but maybe

Gallagher was of importance, noting his decision to relocate to Adelaide for family reasons

It was Gallagher who set the strategy of recruiting a core of mid aged players with hardened bodies AND otherwise go to the Draft knowing there were some battering ram bodies to take the pressure off the kids and to drive commitment

This was a Club agreed policy - so the Board down

The State League players were short term fixes if you like to the age demographic of our List - and included Frawley and McKernan as one year break the glass on case of emergency - and that was the case

It all came down to the age demographic and evolution - noting only Wilkie remains so there has been a bonus past the year or 2 part reliance on those players

There were a lot of other considerations including bringing in the likes of Butler, Higgins et al who were seen as long term prospects so distinct from the State League players

Acres, who I rated, was simply that going home may lead to his development- and no other reason because he was rated

So Hill took his wing - then we were gifted Woods as a like for like (and better overhead plus kicking more goals)

To put that the side was unfit is rubbish as are some other descriptions of those times

[Yorkeys]

"Training standards" does not necessarily equate to fitness levels.
Aspects like: executing responsibilities when side doesn't have the ball; positioning; mental toughness; doing the 1%ers; understanding and executing set plays. We seemed to have a significant number of physically fit headless chooks under regimes 2012 to 2022.

[spert]

I have to respond here

In Ratts last year
We were terribly unfit
We had no idea one week to the next how we were going to play
We got run over so many times after half time it was embarrassing
Players went backwards

In lyons first year
We won first 5 games without a forward line
There was consistent effort all year
Players developed
Fitness was evident

2nd year
Went backwards
Poor 1st half year
Good 2nd half
Beat quality teams
Lost lots of close games
Still poor midfield


I for one was happy ratts left

Err.. re Ratten's last season, it was agreed by some at the club I spoke to that this was the fittest Saints team seen for a few years, which from what I saw at training and preseason matches, looked very true- not sure what team you were looking it. We got injuries to important players during the season, Paddy Ryder became unavailable and it threw the whole team balance out and limited Ratten's ability to swing players around to cover deficiencies, and as a result, some games we just couldn't keep the pressure up when needed. Ross Lyon on steroids would have made no difference that season. Ratten should have at least had his extension honoured, and yet again, due to gut-reaction decisions, is one of the reasons our club has little respect amongst its peers.

[Sanctorum]

Interesting article justifying St Kilda extending Max King's contract to 2032, by Josh Barnes in today's Hun:

"KING OF HILL FOR METRICS

If you ask the Saints, one word pushed Max King’s monster contract extension more than any other: metrics.

The spearhead was long destined for a big extension, with his deal revealed by the Herald Sun to run until 2032, when he will turn 32.

When asked this week why the club believed in King, Saints footy boss David Misson dropped the ‘M’ word first.

“We look at metrics, we look at the character, we look at potential,” he said.

Those metrics included the St Kilda football department comparing King to past greats and where they stood at the same point in their career.

And King compares pretty favourably when stacked up against 12 other modern marking forwards after 83 games.

King’s goal-per-game output of 1.92 shakes out well, ahead of his brother Ben (1.9), Charlie Curnow (1.7), Nick Riewoldt (1.66), Tom Lynch (1.65) and Josh Kennedy (1.61).

Tom Hawkins averaged just 1.43 goals in his first 83 games, often left in and out of a successful Geelong team.

Of the 12 players compared, only Jack Riewoldt (2.18), Harry McKay (2.02) and Jesse Hogan (1.99) rated better for goals. in the air, only McKay (2.1), Nick Riewoldt (2.05), and Tom Lynch (2.02) grabbed more contested marks thank King’s 1.96.

King has clearly played close to home in his five AFL seasons so far and his mark average of 4.34 is low, as is his disposals average (9.53).

Only Nick Larkey and Ben King sit lower in both categories. All key forwards mature at different rates, and King has been forced to handle a fair share of injuries, but the numbers say he is well on track for a big career.

Injuries will always be a query with King – he missed his first season in 2019 with a knee and has been bugged by shoulder and knee issues.

But again, the 206cm King stacks up favourably. After his 2020 debut, it took him just over four years to hit 83 games, in 1561 days.

That is quicker than McKay (1833 days), Hawkins (1842), Kennedy (1904) and the injury-hit Curnow (2323).

There was little concern when the Blues signed up Curnow to the end of 2029 and McKay to 2030.

King’s simple goal tally of 159 after 83 games is well clear of Hawkins (119) and Kennedy (134). Kennedy would finish his career with 723 goals and Hawkins 796.

If King can get close to that, the Saints’ investment will be well worth it."

[St Dave]

Interesting article justifying St Kilda extending Max King's contract to 2032, by Josh Barnes in today's Hun:

"KING OF HILL FOR METRICS

If you ask the Saints, one word pushed Max King’s monster contract extension more than any other: metrics.

The spearhead was long destined for a big extension, with his deal revealed by the Herald Sun to run until 2032, when he will turn 32.

When asked this week why the club believed in King, Saints footy boss David Misson dropped the ‘M’ word first.

“We look at metrics, we look at the character, we look at potential,” he said.

Those metrics included the St Kilda football department comparing King to past greats and where they stood at the same point in their career.

And King compares pretty favourably when stacked up against 12 other modern marking forwards after 83 games.

King’s goal-per-game output of 1.92 shakes out well, ahead of his brother Ben (1.9), Charlie Curnow (1.7), Nick Riewoldt (1.66), Tom Lynch (1.65) and Josh Kennedy (1.61).

Tom Hawkins averaged just 1.43 goals in his first 83 games, often left in and out of a successful Geelong team.

Of the 12 players compared, only Jack Riewoldt (2.18), Harry McKay (2.02) and Jesse Hogan (1.99) rated better for goals. in the air, only McKay (2.1), Nick Riewoldt (2.05), and Tom Lynch (2.02) grabbed more contested marks thank King’s 1.96.

King has clearly played close to home in his five AFL seasons so far and his mark average of 4.34 is low, as is his disposals average (9.53).

Only Nick Larkey and Ben King sit lower in both categories. All key forwards mature at different rates, and King has been forced to handle a fair share of injuries, but the numbers say he is well on track for a big career.

Injuries will always be a query with King – he missed his first season in 2019 with a knee and has been bugged by shoulder and knee issues.

But again, the 206cm King stacks up favourably. After his 2020 debut, it took him just over four years to hit 83 games, in 1561 days.

That is quicker than McKay (1833 days), Hawkins (1842), Kennedy (1904) and the injury-hit Curnow (2323).

There was little concern when the Blues signed up Curnow to the end of 2029 and McKay to 2030.

King’s simple goal tally of 159 after 83 games is well clear of Hawkins (119) and Kennedy (134). Kennedy would finish his career with 723 goals and Hawkins 796.

If King can get close to that, the Saints’ investment will be well worth it."

Exactly what I have been saying, good to see the media looking at it too. Thanks for posting this