King for Petracca?

[CURLY]

What's more important, King kicking 60 goals a season, or our side kicking 100 more goals per season and being less predictable?

If you have a look at the Grand Finals and finals over the last ten years, as you say it’s the combination of forwards doing the job, and not just a star tall Full Forward

Last year Bobby Hill won the Norm Smith. He kicked 4 goals I think. Dustin Martin, Christian Petracca, Bailey Fritsch and others have been the highest goals scorers. They’re not tall Full Forwards are they?

I think Jack Riewoldt kicked 5 one year for Richmond in a GF and of course going back to the Hawthorn 3-peat, Lance Franklin kicked 4 or 5 in 2013 if I recall correctly.

For some Saints supporters they think you need a superstar Full Forward to win you games of footy.

That’s the reason Max King was recruited and that’s their fantasy. I hope he can live up to his potential, but I reckon I’ve seen enough of him to say I don’t think he will.

Is that as a result of teams double teaming a key forward?

[samoht]

I don’t see him as a defender. I just don’t see it.

Play him higher up the ground. Even on a wing.

It wouldn’t kill him to take an occasional centre bounce.

The new challenge would be good for his psyche.

Many didn't see Battle in the backline. Similarly with McCartin.
Richo begged to differ (with Battle) - to his credit.

[Banger9798]

AR: Is his diabetes a problem

Trout: Nope, in fact it’s a positive, it’ll make him better because he has to manage it

I s*** you not!

His skin folds are off the charts, is that an issue? Nope, he hired a personal trainer

We need this bloke to be a ripper!

Yep, he’s our man
Comes from a good family, interviews well, great kid

Never mind the freak that won the Larke Medal, won Eastern Ranges B&F and was runner up in the Morrish who is 186/92 can dunk a basketball is ridiculously explosive
We’ll take the shortish, fat, one dimensional key forward who drops marks and is a poor set shot!

Excellent rant.
It was an insane choice.
I remember them trying to spin the Diabetes into a positive....WTF?!

Forget Petracca, he'd have no interest in us anyway

[spert]

What's more important, King kicking 60 goals a season, or our side kicking 100 more goals per season and being less predictable?

If you have a look at the Grand Finals and finals over the last ten years, as you say it’s the combination of forwards doing the job, and not just a star tall Full Forward

Last year Bobby Hill won the Norm Smith. He kicked 4 goals I think. Dustin Martin, Christian Petracca, Bailey Fritsch and others have been the highest goals scorers. They’re not tall Full Forwards are they?

I think Jack Riewoldt kicked 5 one year for Richmond in a GF and of course going back to the Hawthorn 3-peat, Lance Franklin kicked 4 or 5 in 2013 if I recall correctly.

For some Saints supporters they think you need a superstar Full Forward to win you games of footy.

That’s the reason Max King was recruited and that’s their fantasy. I hope he can live up to his potential, but I reckon I’ve seen enough of him to say I don’t think he will.

I reckon what we have seen from Max is as good as it gets, just need him on the ground for a full season, but we don't need Petracca. The Saints have rarely focussed on team, always on individuals and a big reason we have not had a lot of success as a club. Whatever it takes to get a premiership TEAM happening is what should count, not hoping one player decides our fortune.

[saint6709]

Every man and his dog knows we should have taken Petraca instead of McCartin - even at the time there were a only a few crazies who would argue the case for McCartin over Petraca - unfortunately a few of those worked for the saints

But that horse bolted a long time ago - Petraca for early draft picks doesn’t work for the saints anymore

I’m 100% for backing Max in to be a star saint either as key forward ( would like him chop out in the ruck ) or a key back

[Saint Of Patience]

The historical data says that key forwards have rarely influenced finals games in the last 15 years, if we could get a high first round pick for King I would jump at it.

[Yorkeys]

The historical data says that key forwards have rarely influenced finals games in the last 15 years, if we could get a high first round pick for King I would jump at it.

Does the same data indicate its easy to make finals without key forwards?

[repta]

No way.
Pettracca is done. Mentally it will take too much. Dusty didn't recover.
However it is the sort of stupid move that stkilda would do.

We can get him right ....

[SAINT-LEE]

He’s 29 next year

We are not in any window

No fkn way


He is the last player I’d trade - key forwards are rare as hens teeth

Plus we dont actually HAVE a key forward to trade

[SAINT-LEE]

I don’t see him as a defender. I just don’t see it.

Play him higher up the ground. Even on a wing.

It wouldn’t kill him to take an occasional centre bounce.

The new challenge would be good for his psyche.

Ben played defense most of his life pre AFL.
Max can but he has proven he won't run so he'd never outmark, out muscle or out run forwards.

[Yorkeys]

Just remember Max has not played in the version of the side we have seen in the last several weeks. He'd be impossible to defend in our current form.

[samoht]

It could be as you say.
But, King will need to become just another option.

Our aim should be to kick more goals as a side from multiple sources - be the highest scoring team going around - because that's what we're capable of.

With a fully fit Henry, Phillipou next year, and Wilson further developing (all three are goal kickers) and our new "egalitarian" approach (that all forwards are born equal and deserve an equal opportunity) with multiple mobile and tall/tallish marking forwards (including Membrey, Sharman, Owens) ... we will be raining goals. The opposition wont know what hit them and from where.
Scoring will be king. Predictability will be out the window.
We won't suffer from the Curnow syndrome this way, where your "key" forward goes missing.

[bigcarl]

It could be as you say.
But, King will need to become just another option.

Exactly this

[SaintWiki]

Relying on one key forward can backfire, as Carlton found out with Curnow in last year's finals.

It's not so much how many goals King averages, but how many our side is now averaging without him.

We have a better functioning forward line ... with lots of equal options.
No King, but plenty of minions and mobile marking forwards doing well, combining beautifully together.

Emerging from under His shadow.

Our forward line is humming. Even Steele is kicking goals.
No more predictability.

We're now leaving room for and encouraging players such as Wilson, Henry and Phillipou to also run in and kick goals - now that there's no unhealthy focus on kicking it to one largely static, tall player.

I think King could make a great backman. Why not?

We'll probably need someone tall and young in the backline ... it looks like Battle might be gone?

Your argument assumes the club will dump all our other tall fowards when Max returns. The issue of a better forward line now is because of the quality of the kicks coming in and Max was surroundered by a large pack of opposition players ... and my answer to your last line is 'it may work but great key forwards are as scarce as hens teeth', there is no reason why St Kilda can't fit Max in and if we can't he might decide to 'walk', and also multiple tall forward options should lower pack mark injury rates.

[samoht]

Yes, but it's the approach that I'm getting at.
No more "key" forwards (just because they are extra tall or extra athletic or whatever) - instead, spread the goal kicking around, kicking it to the best mobile option, whichever forward is clever enough to find themselves in free space, at any given instant - that's who you kick it to.

If that happens to be King - if he manages to get free, and presents as the best option, then you'd pass it to him, of course. Otherwise, look for the better/best option.

We are blessed with goal kickers - we don't have to keep going to the same one, and make it easy for the opposition.

We should be kicking 100 points plus on average next year, and who cares if M.King comes 10th in the Coleman, while his brother comes 3rd - as long as we're kicking higher scores than the opposition, consistently. With the right ("egalitarian"/multi-avenue) approach, it can happen.

[St Dave]

Yes, but it's the approach that I'm getting at.
No more "key" forwards (just because they are extra tall or extra athletic or whatever) - instead, spread the goal kicking around, kicking it to the best mobile option, whichever forward is clever enough to find themselves in free space, at any given instant - that's who you kick it to.

If that happens to be King - if he manages to get free, and presents as the best option, then you'd pass it to him, of course. Otherwise, look for the better/best option.

We are blessed with goal kickers - we don't have to keep going to the same one, and make it easy for the opposition.

We should be kicking 100 points plus on average next year, and who cares if M.King comes 10th in the Coleman, while his brother comes 3rd - as long as we're kicking higher scores than the opposition, consistently. With the right ("egalitarian"/multi-avenue) approach, it can happen.

This has to happen when King is back and I think he will thrive in that environment too.

As others have noted, it isn't just our forward line structure that has improved, it is the ball movement across the team that has helped unlock it.

Over the year we have always been a team that takes a lot of marks, but over the last 5 weeks we have actually averaged 25 more marks a game than any other team. We are number 1 for kicking (and overall disposal) efficiency over that period too. That has allowed us to stretch defences and despite being average for inside 50s per game we still take almost 3 more marks inside 50 than any other team, with marks on 35.4% of our forward 50 entries (vs pies second at 28.9% and the AFL average of 22.7%). A lot of this is due to lowering our eyes and picking leading targets, with our season average 6.1 marks on the lead improving to 11.2 average per game over the last 5 weeks.

There is no reason King being back next year needs to change any of that and I will be disappointed if it does.

Data from here: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats ... ml?year=-1

[aaron82]

When Max inevitably returns to the forward like it cannot be all about him. We need to have a system that allows all players including midfielders to hit the scoreboard.

Sometimes King will need to play a selfless game. A great example of this is the 2008 Preliminary against the hawks. Buddy was coming off a 9 goal haul in the qualifying final against the dogs, Clarko was fully aware we’d focus a lot of our attention on him with Max as his opponent and others getting in his way.

Instead, Buddy played a somewhat decoy roll & it was Mark Williams who was the primary target that night on a young Sam Gilbert. Who ever said King coming 10th for example is spot on if it means we are kicking good scores each week & he is playing a role. That is a great thing

[aaron82]

When Max inevitably returns to the forward like it cannot be all about him. We need to have a system that allows all players including midfielders to hit the scoreboard.

Sometimes King will need to play a selfless game. A great example of this is the 2008 Preliminary against the hawks. Buddy was coming off a 9 goal haul in the qualifying final against the dogs, Clarko was fully aware we’d focus a lot of our attention on him with Max as his opponent and others getting in his way.

Instead, Buddy played a somewhat decoy roll & it was Mark Williams who was the primary target that night on a young Sam Gilbert. Who ever said King coming 10th for example is spot on if it means we are kicking good scores each week & he is playing a role. That is a great thing

[B.M]

Haha

King and 2 x Firsts is what Melbourne want

I would not give up King or 1 First

[samuraisaint]

Judging by what I am seeing at the Suns-Richmond game today we got the best King. Bing struggles to take uncontested chest marks. And the midfielders kicking to him are all high draft picks.
Gee whiz.

[whiskers3614]

Play him 30% ruck and remainder forward.

Marshall is a more than adequate forward for rotations,.
I can’t see why this hasn’t been tried on some of his dirty head dropping days!

[whiskers3614]

Play him 30% ruck and remainder forward.

Marshall is a more than adequate forward for rotations,.
I can’t see why this hasn’t been tried on some of his dirty head dropping days!

[SydneySainter]

AR: Is his diabetes a problem

Trout: Nope, in fact it’s a positive, it’ll make him better because he has to manage it

I s*** you not!

His skin folds are off the charts, is that an issue? Nope, he hired a personal trainer

We need this bloke to be a ripper!

Yep, he’s our man
Comes from a good family, interviews well, great kid

Never mind the freak that won the Larke Medal, won Eastern Ranges B&F and was runner up in the Morrish who is 186/92 can dunk a basketball is ridiculously explosive
We’ll take the shortish, fat, one dimensional key forward who drops marks and is a poor set shot!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Your description of McCartin as a player is wrong. McCartin was a victim of concussion, there is no evidence that had anything to do with his diabetes. He would have been a gun as a key forward. May not have been elite as a set shot, but he had plenty of tricks and was a magnificent reader of the ball in flight.

After having hardly played for us (including Sandy), he misses 4 years and comes back to quickly become one of the best CHBs in the competition. If he hadn't been stopped by concussion, he probably would have moved forward when Buddy retired and become a dominant big forward.

Arguments that we should've taken Bontempelli ahead of Billings are fair enough. However, the McCartin situation was just bad luck. If you didn't take McCartin, then in hindsight, you'd take DeGoey ahead of Petracca anyway.

It wasn’t bad luck, it was shocking recruiting.

Trout got spooked by the Boyd trade and tried to outsmart the draft - with pick no. 1!!!

It was such an important pick, a key plank in our rebuild and not the pick you gamble with. Apparently it was too previous to trade for two top-10 picks, but not so valuable that you take the punt on an undersized, slightly overweight forward with diabetes?

That pick alone set us back a rebuild cycle.

[Vortex]

AR: Is his diabetes a problem

Trout: Nope, in fact it’s a positive, it’ll make him better because he has to manage it

I s*** you not!

His skin folds are off the charts, is that an issue? Nope, he hired a personal trainer

We need this bloke to be a ripper!

Yep, he’s our man
Comes from a good family, interviews well, great kid

Never mind the freak that won the Larke Medal, won Eastern Ranges B&F and was runner up in the Morrish who is 186/92 can dunk a basketball is ridiculously explosive
We’ll take the shortish, fat, one dimensional key forward who drops marks and is a poor set shot!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Your description of McCartin as a player is wrong. McCartin was a victim of concussion, there is no evidence that had anything to do with his diabetes. He would have been a gun as a key forward. May not have been elite as a set shot, but he had plenty of tricks and was a magnificent reader of the ball in flight.

After having hardly played for us (including Sandy), he misses 4 years and comes back to quickly become one of the best CHBs in the competition. If he hadn't been stopped by concussion, he probably would have moved forward when Buddy retired and become a dominant big forward.

Arguments that we should've taken Bontempelli ahead of Billings are fair enough. However, the McCartin situation was just bad luck. If you didn't take McCartin, then in hindsight, you'd take DeGoey ahead of Petracca anyway.

It wasn’t bad luck, it was shocking recruiting

Trout got spooked by the Boyd trade and tried to outsmart the draft - with pick no. 1!!!

It was such an important pick, a key plank in our rebuild and not the pick you gamble with. Apparently it was too previous to trade for two top-10 picks, but not so valuable that you take the punt on an undersized, slightly overweight forward with diabetes?

That pick alone set us back a rebuild cycle.

Let's remember though, Pady only failed to realise his full potential due to head trauma as a result of multiple concussions playing at the elite level, so the game itself ended Paddy's career. Dems da facts.

And not to make too fine a point of it, he played in a GF after only one season back from a long lay off at the elite level, a much, much higher achievement than any other Saints recruit from the draft since 2010...(did I miss anyone else recruited by us from the draft that went to another club and achieve GF and/or flag status?)

And if not for head trauma caused by the game, he arguably would have been more valuable to our chances of building a flag team around than what Max King might ever be.

IMO if it came down to Paddy versus Max as a prototype for a power forward, I would pick Paddy every day of the week over Max, even with diabetes.

[B.M]

You’re joking yeah?!