King unbalances the team?

[samuraisaint]

Interesting Lyon's recent comments on Max when he confirmed his season was done, something along the line of needing to get away from the club and get his mind right?

Dane Swan, Dustin Martin and a few of their close friends (including Jordan De Goey) used to go to Las Vegas at the end of every year to unwind and get away from it all.

I recommend Max gets one of those cool mohawk type haircuts and gets a few tattoos and goes to Vegas. Jost go crazy for 4 weeks. It'd be like reverse rehab for nerds

Tough stickers the way to go, you reckon?

[Scollop]

Interesting Lyon's recent comments on Max when he confirmed his season was done, something along the line of needing to get away from the club and get his mind right?

Dane Swan, Dustin Martin and a few of their close friends (including Jordan De Goey) used to go to Las Vegas at the end of every year to unwind and get away from it all.

I recommend Max gets one of those cool mohawk type haircuts and gets a few tattoos and goes to Vegas. Jost go crazy for 4 weeks. It'd be like reverse rehab for nerds

Tough stickers the way to go, you reckon?

Yeah why not!? Get one's like Hilly and Skunk and Stocker has them too...but don't do those home made prison type tatts...like Luke Jackson. They look sh*t

Also get the ones that hurt the most, like on his shin or legs or abdomen.

[samuraisaint]

Interesting Lyon's recent comments on Max when he confirmed his season was done, something along the line of needing to get away from the club and get his mind right?

Dane Swan, Dustin Martin and a few of their close friends (including Jordan De Goey) used to go to Las Vegas at the end of every year to unwind and get away from it all.

I recommend Max gets one of those cool mohawk type haircuts and gets a few tattoos and goes to Vegas. Jost go crazy for 4 weeks. It'd be like reverse rehab for nerds

Tough stickers the way to go, you reckon?

Yeah why not!? Get one's like Hilly and Skunk and Stocker has them too...but don't do those home made prison type tatts...like Luke Jackson. They look sh*t

Also get the ones that hurt the most, like on his shin or legs or abdomen.

Agreed - and those ones that just look black because you can't even see what the pictures are of.

[Bruce G McAbee]

Paying King a huge amount of money when his output is so sparse and sketchy
Will unbalance the team.
It might cause friction and simmering discontent when other players can't get as much as they believe they're worth, as King has sucked most of the $$$

Think back to RTB's earlier stint with us.

Rumours said half of the $$ was paid to maybe 10 players.

I strongly believe the club would be better off without King.

Why have so much money gifted to a guy with 'potential' who has only shown flashes of what he might be.

Who was that Bulldog? Tom Boyd? They thought he'd be the big saviour.

Let another club deal with King, let them have the headache.

Let's spend the limited cap on getting an even spread of talent

Boyd was one of the reasons the Bulldogs won the premiership, he was one of their best players in the Grand Final.
I'd be more than happy with that return from our investment.

[CURLY]

No way you trade a player like King.

Still needs to get a decent run with injury and really feel that ridiculously soft suspension cost him and us momentum.

Remember he played a lot of soft private school football.

[D.B.Cooper]

No way you trade a player like King.

Still needs to get a decent run with injury and really feel that ridiculously soft suspension cost him and us momentum.

Remember he played a lot of soft private school football.

13 games is a lot?

Surprised you didn't add with players like Byrnes kicking to him, the umpires cheating against him and the AFL conspiring to ensure he doesn't win the Coleman.

Byrnes, Umpires cheating, AFL conspiracy, Private Schools = Crying Curly's whole input.

Curly knows football

[CURLY]

No way you trade a player like King.

Still needs to get a decent run with injury and really feel that ridiculously soft suspension cost him and us momentum.

Remember he played a lot of soft private school football.

13 games is a lot?

Surprised you didn't add with players like Byrnes kicking to him, the umpires cheating against him and the AFL conspiring to ensure he doesn't win the Coleman.

Byrnes, Umpires cheating, AFL conspiracy, Private Schools = Crying Curly's whole input.

Curly knows football

Far to easy.

[mad saint guy]

I think it's fair to say that we were a worse team with Max King in it than without him this year.

But there are some huge caveats.

1 - King was nowhere near 100% at any point
2 - We played a dumb game plan involving bombing it on his head every time we go inside 50
3 - His support squad of Membrey, Sharman and Caminiti were all dealing with form or injury issues
4 - We only just figured out that Marshall is an absolute weapon drifting forward and he will also help to draw attention away from Max (or vice versa)
5 - Higgo and Butts has interrupted seasons
6 - Owens is still finding his feet and Pou was poo up forward before he found his groove in the midfield


I'd like to see Max play a mix of CHF and deep forward next year, potentially helping with the ruckwork if Keeler or Heath don't force their way in. He needs to be a cog in the team, not the only forward target.

[Otiman]

I think it's fair to say that we were a worse team with Max King in it than without him this year.

You are spot on, we were a worse team because of the way we played around King, not because of the way he played.

It still doesn't mean he is without improvement - far from it. His leadership and communication and game sense definitely needs to improve.

[SaintWiki]

Just because he is a very tall player and older than our kids doesn't mean he is more mature. He has had an enormous amount of pressure on him and we haven't had other tall forwards to take the pressure off and spead the forwad line, and we were bombing the ball to an outrageous pack of players. I hope we do better in the future, or at least I hope the coaching staff get a specialist in if they have ran out of ideas. He has already shown that he can work on ground balls, hold very strong marks, kick really well at goals as well as up the ground. Just imagine if we give him the confidence to be the key cog in an excellent and deep forward line list.

[WellardSaint]

FFS he is OVERPAID for what he's achieved so far.

It's like the man who bought a Ferrari with an F1 gearbox (a computer operates the clutch) and although very attractive vehicle, it costs a huge $$ to buy, insure and maintain.
It's never a reliable 'daily driver' and can only be used on weekends to reduce the chance of breaking down.

Why would anyone waste so much money on something that promises so much but cannot deliver

[Yorkeys]

FFS he is OVERPAID for what he's achieved so far.

It's like the man who bought a Ferrari with an F1 gearbox (a computer operates the clutch) and although very attractive vehicle, it costs a huge $$ to buy, insure and maintain.
It's never a reliable 'daily driver' and can only be used on weekends to reduce the chance of breaking down.

Why would anyone waste so much money on something that promises so much but cannot deliver

- It's nothing like that.

- Market largely determines price.

- Wear and tear is inherent for a match winning key forward (check out what's happening at other clubs). There are skilled strong people trying to hurt them in pairs 24 rounds a year, 2.5 hrs each week.
At least you are not suggesting Max is not a high performance conveyance.

May help considerations to note the mission is winning games not minimising salary payments.
Players like Max win games.
Can you nominate any $400k a year players that are better in that regard.
PS: Max is a clutch player.

[spert]

I have a concern that Max might be one of those players which many clubs have who is important, but injury-prone and will not see out full seasons, and as a result, the coach has to restructure the forward systems which unsettles the balance. Our current setup seems to be working together better now, but it's almost the end of another disappointing season, so let's see what the brains-trust comes up with for next season.

[The_Dud]

Under Ross all the stats say we're a worse team with King playing.

King is being wasted, whether that's because Ross doesn't know how to use a power forward or our midfield is C grade, so how many more years are we going to tread water with him until one of those 2 things change?

All I know is its better to have and elite midfield and average forward line than an average midfield and elite forward line.

[beebarry]

Turn him into a defensive interceptor. I get all the points as to why not. Has to at least be considered. He’s not a goal square forward. Nothing to lose ….

[skeptic]

The biggest challenge of the off-season IMO along with improving the midfield… is to find a way to restructure the forward line accordingly.

There’s a few challenges to note.

Membrey is close to retiring

Caminati and King seem somewhat inclined to play the same role - contested mark winning forward. IMO they don’t play well together

With King in the team… he doesn’t lead or push up the ground which reduces his natural advantages and sees swarms of opponents/numbers contest around him that makes it difficult for the crumbers.

I don’t know if this is strictly a King issue and he played a different style under Ratts or if it’s also that the kids are prone to be less considered and just bomb it in.

It also severely affects Cooper Sharman and Mitch Owens who actually tend to thrive more in an open forward line where they can run at ball and use their leap/strength respectively, which is their strength.

We also need to find another tall to fit in that can play relief rough be it Keeler / Hayes or Moose.

IMO all of this is solvable/workable but it really needs to be the coach’s focus this week

[Scollop]

I think Max King would benefit from some boxing.

Not saying that Max King should employ Don King but that it will just help his strength and particularly his physicality. It should make him more combative.

I remember when Jack Billings got into the boxing ring for alternative training during the 2019 preseason, it helped him have his best ever year under us in 2019.

[The_Dud]

I think Max King would benefit from some boxing.

Not saying that Max King should employ Don King but that it will just help his strength and particularly his physicality. It should make him more combative.

I remember when Jack Billings got into the boxing ring for alternative training during the 2019 preseason, it helped him have his best ever year under us in 2019.

Going off King’s history, I don’t think he needs to sharpen his ability with fist/elbow, would only lead to missing extra weeks!

[Scollop]

I think Max King would benefit from some boxing.

Not saying that Max King should employ Don King but that it will just help his strength and particularly his physicality. It should make him more combative.

I remember when Jack Billings got into the boxing ring for alternative training during the 2019 preseason, it helped him have his best ever year under us in 2019.

Going off King’s history, I don’t think he needs to sharpen his ability with fist/elbow, would only lead to missing extra weeks!

Can you read?

Look at the words I underlined. The reason Max got frustrated and did stupid things was because of his inability to creat space and shrug off nagging defenders. The boxing will help him with his aerobic capacity too

Only issue he has is finding someone tall enough to spar with him. Maybe hit the outback and look for a big Red Kangaroo

[bigcarl]

The biggest challenge of the off-season IMO along with improving the midfield… is to find a way to restructure the forward line accordingly.

Agree wholeheartedly. We’ve failed miserably if we ever go back to bombing it long to a stationary and double-teamed Max King.

It’s not that hard. There are many routes to goal. Use them!

[Scollop]

Bombing it in to Centre half forward is ok. I’d prefer that to bombing it deep to the goal square. I know it’s a riskier strategy, but it doesn’t have to be. Put someone tall in that traditional CHF spot. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen us win clearance in the centre and Marshall or someone else gets the kick forward, to only find Darcy Wilson or Dan Butler sitting there where Stewy Loewe or Aaron Hamill used to do their best work.

[bakes]

Under Ross all the stats say we're a worse team with King playing.

King is being wasted, whether that's because Ross doesn't know how to use a power forward or our midfield is C grade, so how many more years are we going to tread water with him until one of those 2 things change?

All I know is its better to have and elite midfield and average forward line than an average midfield and elite forward line.

Could you please define what a power forward is? I always thought it meant someone that leads at the ball and breaks packs. If staying within the goalsquare within a 1m radius and calling for the ball to be kicked on top of your head is the definition of ‘power forward’, then yes you are correct, King is one of them.

If I was in charge of the club I would shop King around right now and trade him out for a 1st round pick, or else he’ll end up like Billings in the end with 0 trade value.

[Yorkeys]

Under Ross all the stats say we're a worse team with King playing.

King is being wasted, whether that's because Ross doesn't know how to use a power forward or our midfield is C grade, so how many more years are we going to tread water with him until one of those 2 things change?

All I know is its better to have and elite midfield and average forward line than an average midfield and elite forward line.

Could you please define what a power forward is? I always thought it meant someone that leads at the ball and breaks packs. If staying within the goalsquare within a 1m radius and calling for the ball to be kicked on top of your head is the definition of ‘power forward’, then yes you are correct, King is one of them.

If I was in charge of the club I would shop King around right now and trade him out for a 1st round pick, or else he’ll end up like Billings in the end with 0 trade value.

Have you been in charge of anything?

[bigcarl]

Bombing it in to Centre half forward is ok. I’d prefer that to bombing it deep to the goal square. I know it’s a riskier strategy, but it doesn’t have to be. Put someone tall in that traditional CHF spot. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen us win clearance in the centre and Marshall or someone else gets the kick forward, to only find Darcy Wilson or Dan Butler sitting there where Stewy Loewe or Aaron Hamill used to do their best work.

Agree. Plonk Sharman/Owens deep with the smalls and move Max to chf. If he’s being mauled by two opponents just go over his head.

Actually, now that I think of it, Sharman is starting to look like a spearhead. Just a natural goal-kicker and his leap makes him dangerous and a real handful. He will not stop presenting either

[Sanctorum]

In today's Herald Sun, Mark Robinson made some interesting comments about St Kilda without Max King, under the heading:

"King well and tryly deposed"

"Before Max King was injured in round 17, St Kilda had kicked 100-plus points in only two games. Since then, there’s been two horrible scores of 39 but, more to the point, three 100- point scores and a 99.

On Saturday night, the Saints kicked 107 points against one of the most organised teams in the AFL, one that had not given up 100 points for seven weeks.

Let’s not duck and dive, the Saints are a better team without Max King as the key forward.

Without him, the Saints are less predictable and more aware of options, which has delivered a spread of goalkickers. There were nine against the Cats. In round 1 against Geelong, there had been just five."

I concur with this assessment, and have changed my view on the wisdom of St Kilda continuing to invest in King as a marquee player.

If you look at the stats of both Max and Ben King in 23/24, neither reached anywhere near elite level in any of the games they have played.

In 2023 Max averaged 56.7 ranking points per game, Ben 45.6
In 2024 Max averaged 52.5, Ben 54.6

I know that Max has played only 11 games each of those 2 years, but even in his best season, 2022 (22 games) he only achieved an average of 62.2, hardly worth writing home about!

I took a special interest in Ben's game in the Sun's loss to Melbourne, and he kicked 2.1 in a 7 disposal game, ranking 48 AF points, which is nowhere near good enough from your gun key forward. Time and time again he stood almost stationary in front of goals, waiting for players upfield to kick the ball to him, not once working his guts out to run into open space and present a target for his mids. And that's been the same story for his identical twin brother Max.....

If a player of lesser lights than Max King played so poorly he would have been sent back to the reserves to work on his craft, and not be selected in the seniors until he reached the required level.

It is often stated that tall players take a long time to develop, and I accept that, but that doesn't excuse the seemingly lack of hunger, the look of despondency, indifference, the unwillingness (ability??) to fight like hell to win the ball in a contest.

Ben King has been coached by Damien Hardwick this year and I would have expected that he would have found the key to unlock his gun forward's potential, but that hasn't happened and makes me wonder if the potential actually exists?

I agree 100% with the proposal on this forum for Max King to be recast as a ruckman in 2025; this would reveal if in fact he can play at the top level as it will force him to follow the ball around the ground, involve himself in the game and possibly whet his appetite to kick a lot of goals.

Failing that, I believe it would be foolhardy for the club to consider a premature extension of his current contract beyond 2026.