Let's Talk About the Elephant In the Room

[Teflon]

I think KIng is a great talent and will get only better and it would be dumb to trade him out. Just wait and see how he goes in a good side surrounded by gun players.

It’s important, though, that we don’t become too one dimensional by always going to him, particularly when he’s got two guys on him. In other words, build a functional forward line around him with multiple routes to goal.

If that means he plays at time as even a decoy and someone else gets the glory, I’m happy with that as long as we get the goals.

This makes sense
Right now though whether it’s Caminiti or Membrey neither are damaging enough to take heat from King who draws a crowd
I like King up the ground on occasion - not all the time cause he’s not the aerobic beast Cameron is but occasionally as the get out of defence mark up on the wing he’s invaluable

[WellardSaint]

I watched the Doggies vs Pies.
Several times, they had 3 talls moving apart from each other, like 20m -30m apart.
Commentators highlighted this.
Saying it stretched the defence and the talls didn't spoil each other.
Also, the delivery is a lot better than ours.

Several times, I think we had King and Caminiti in the same pack, and they don't really know how to keep out Barrass and McGovern.

Harvey needs to find a way to get King, Membrey and Caminiti to stretch defences and work together.
Until then, we'll struggle to kick over 10 goals in a game.

Ideally, King should get 3-5, Higgo 2-3, Caminiti 2 or so, Membrey 2 maybe, and Butler popping up for 2 out the back.
Then Darcy and Wood taking strong marks and converting.
We have the tools in the F50, just need to find the best way to gel

[Teflon]

I watched the Doggies vs Pies.
Several times, they had 3 talls moving apart from each other, like 20m -30m apart.
Commentators highlighted this.
Saying it stretched the defence and the talls didn't spoil each other.
Also, the delivery is a lot better than ours.

Several times, I think we had King and Caminiti in the same pack, and they don't really know how to keep out Barrass and McGovern.

Harvey needs to find a way to get King, Membrey and Caminiti to stretch defences and work together.
Until then, we'll struggle to kick over 10 goals in a game.

Ideally, King should get 3-5, Higgo 2-3, Caminiti 2 or so, Membrey 2 maybe, and Butler popping up for 2 out the back.
Then Darcy and Wood taking strong marks and converting.
We have the tools in the F50, just need to find the best way to gel

There’s a bit of that but opposition pay Ugle Hagen Darcy or Naughton much more respect thank King Membrey Caminiti
Your point is still valid though and all the more reason why we need to;
1. Spread defenders
2. Lower eyes into 50
3. IF King draws a crowd…look elsewhere

I’m convinced we resort to bombing into 50 not because it’s our “game plan”
It’s because our players resort to this and slamming it on the boot when under pressure from better opponents
I do think it’s psychological/ingrained to a degree and until we have players with the skill and confidence to not take the dump kick out under pressure…our forward entries will continue to suffer
Of course midfield is the other forward of centre issue…
We saw yesterday- we break even/get on top around the contest we can score
I remember last year watching us blitz Carlton first half - mids all over them we led by 5 goals
After half time?? Cripps , Dow and co got to work …we fell away badly ….lost by 6 comfortably
I know Crouch is still under done ….but I am keen to see what a midfield with him, Dow, Steele, Clark goes like …
That said….im also keen to stay bottom 3 …I want top 5 draft pick to recruit a genuine gun mid …

[The G Train Legacy]

King cannot mark above his head.
His shoulder is so shot he doesn't have any faith in even putting his arm up to compete.

Yes we did better without him up there. But that was not a long term solution. I am a mason wood fan. But he is not a long term key forward. I think even he would agree with that.

Well he took about 3 powerful contested grabs above his head.

He only took 2 marks for the game.

Watch his highlights. Everything above his head is not at full stretch, most get dropped or he doesn't get his hands up at all.

You may be right about King favoring his shoulder, only King and the Club would really know. Those 2 marks, were big contested marks at full stretch.
I don't think King's shoulder is the issue, more a combination of delivery to him and his forward craft. Nothing that can't be resolved.

[The G Train Legacy]

I watched the Doggies vs Pies.
Several times, they had 3 talls moving apart from each other, like 20m -30m apart.
Commentators highlighted this.
Saying it stretched the defence and the talls didn't spoil each other.
Also, the delivery is a lot better than ours.

Several times, I think we had King and Caminiti in the same pack, and they don't really know how to keep out Barrass and McGovern.

Harvey needs to find a way to get King, Membrey and Caminiti to stretch defences and work together.
Until then, we'll struggle to kick over 10 goals in a game.

Ideally, King should get 3-5, Higgo 2-3, Caminiti 2 or so, Membrey 2 maybe, and Butler popping up for 2 out the back.
Then Darcy and Wood taking strong marks and converting.
We have the tools in the F50, just need to find the best way to gel

There’s a bit of that but opposition pay Ugle Hagen Darcy or Naughton much more respect thank King Membrey Caminiti
Your point is still valid though and all the more reason why we need to;
1. Spread defenders
2. Lower eyes into 50
3. IF King draws a crowd…look elsewhere

I’m convinced we resort to bombing into 50 not because it’s our “game plan”
It’s because our players resort to this and slamming it on the boot when under pressure from better opponents
I do think it’s psychological/ingrained to a degree and until we have players with the skill and confidence to not take the dump kick out under pressure…our forward entries will continue to suffer
Of course midfield is the other forward of centre issue…
We saw yesterday- we break even/get on top around the contest we can score
I remember last year watching us blitz Carlton first half - mids all over them we led by 5 goals
After half time?? Cripps , Dow and co got to work …we fell away badly ….lost by 6 comfortably
I know Crouch is still under done ….but I am keen to see what a midfield with him, Dow, Steele, Clark goes like …
That said….im also keen to stay bottom 3 …I want top 5 draft pick to recruit a genuine gun mid …

Don't bank on bottom 3 or high picks yet. We've all talked about tanking, but in reality it isn't in Ross' DNA. As long as its possible to win 13 games, he'll still have an eye on that. I still think its more likely we start winning games, now that our List is healthy, than finish bottom 4. I don't know that for sure, but I'm leaning that way.
It wasn't a win for the ages on the weekend, but it was a good win, in that a few things started to click and we've stopped fumbling.

[Sanctorum]

I agree
Don’t buy Vorts nonsense
We don’t need to trade King - we need to use him better and support him
I also agree Membrey is a poor support act - not big enough to demand attention, to inconsistent to be a credible threat…so all opposition attention goes to King ….sll iur players coming forward look for King …
IF King had Ugle Hagen ….a Harry McKay etc next to him …he’d be far more potent
Totally agree also on sone zip around the ball - Lyon made the point at half time we were stagnant from the back again, he identified it and changed it. Good coach.
I also think our mids git on top second half around stoppage ..makes a massive difference when you get 1st hands on the ball and stop chasing tail
Clark Dow v good - Steele got going Windy stopped the spoilt child
IF we had an LDU or 2 who could break away from congestion….we’d be a very different proposition and again King would have a field day
I also thought King up the ground worked again - he actually looks dangerous floating back into F50 id persist with that just a shame he lacks support

Very good summary of what occurred in the 2nd half, trailing significantly in clearances at that stage it looked for all the money that Eagles were going to go on and win, the moves by the coaching panel to get Windhager to hard tag Reid worked a treat and led to Dow and Clark to start winning some takeaways from centre bounces and stoppages. The five goal last quarter showed what this team is capable of because the intensity level increased to the point where Eagles were outclassed. In many ways this was the team's best game this year.

Max King, as frustrating as he can be to watch, has still to develop into the big key forward he has been destined to become, but I have not the slightest doubt that he will get there.

In order to assess Max King's progress since he debuted in 2018, it's informative to compare his stats at the same age to those of Carlton's Harry Mackay, who is generally regarded as a gun key forward, as well as Geelong's esteemed Tom Hawkins.

In the four years from age 20 to 23 inclusive:

Tom Hawkins played 80 games and kicked 159 goals, 88 behinds (247 sog)
Harry Mackay played 65 games and kicked 126 goals, 89 behinds (215 sog)
Max King played 71 games and kicked 140 goals, 113 behinds (253 sog)

These stats make a mockery of those who are so determined to trade Max King to another club!!!

"A" Grade tall key forwards don't grow on trees, with a little more accuracy Max would have left the other two in his wake....

St Kilda's forward 6 has been comparatively dysfunctional this year which has to some extent been due to the absence for many games of the two small forwards, Higgins and Butler, who last year contributed 69 goals, 38 behinds between them.

In addition, Tim Membrey, who kicked 34 goals in 21/22, has missed a lot of games and been well below his best. At age 30 he is far from a lost cause, but if the list managers decide that his time is up then it would not surprise me to see Josh Battle, with a new long term deal under his belt, line up as a key forward in conjunction with Max King and possibly Anthony Caminiti.

I remain very bullish about Arie Schoenmaker to replace Battle as key defender, he is invariably rated as among the best 4 players with Sandringham and surely will get a chance to strut his stuff very soon.

[Otiman]

1. Spread defenders
2. Lower eyes into 50
3. IF King draws a crowd…look elsewhere

I’m convinced we resort to bombing into 50 not because it’s our “game plan”
It’s because our players resort to this and slamming it on the boot when under pressure from better opponents
I do think it’s psychological/ingrained to a degree and until we have players with the skill and confidence to not take the dump kick out under pressure…our forward entries will continue to suffer

You've got this pretty much bang on. I'd argue one step further that we are playing a style that rolls the dice in that midfield contest coming out of D50 which is the source of the pressure.

It can't be coincidence or lack of individual effort or skill that all players are down on disposal efficiency this year.

[Vortex]

In the 4th quarter I saw a lot of lowering the eyes and bullet passes to forwards working hard ans presenting to honour good work up field. When was the last time we kicked 5 goals in a quarter.

Bombing to the forward line happens when the forwards aren't working as they should to create and lead into space, King's forward craft is rarely elite.

[bigcarl]

In the 4th quarter I saw a lot of lowering the eyes and bullet passes to forwards working hard ans presenting to honour good work up field. When was the last time we kicked 5 goals in a quarter.

When was the last time our midfield was well on top in a game? Before Saturday, I mean. Probably Collingwood.

Look, King has a way to go in terms of forward craft, I agree, but I think he will get there. It’s important that we get multiple dangerous options around him to take advantage of the fact that he usually draws two of the opposition’s best defenders,

[Yorkeys]

I like Elephants. They seem graceful, calm, loving, nice tusks, strong, vegetarian, don't take s*** from others. Can sit quietly in a corner if that's necessary. Just do their thing, no malice.

[St Dave]

I agree
Don’t buy Vorts nonsense
We don’t need to trade King - we need to use him better and support him
I also agree Membrey is a poor support act - not big enough to demand attention, to inconsistent to be a credible threat…so all opposition attention goes to King ….sll iur players coming forward look for King …
IF King had Ugle Hagen ….a Harry McKay etc next to him …he’d be far more potent
Totally agree also on sone zip around the ball - Lyon made the point at half time we were stagnant from the back again, he identified it and changed it. Good coach.
I also think our mids git on top second half around stoppage ..makes a massive difference when you get 1st hands on the ball and stop chasing tail
Clark Dow v good - Steele got going Windy stopped the spoilt child
IF we had an LDU or 2 who could break away from congestion….we’d be a very different proposition and again King would have a field day
I also thought King up the ground worked again - he actually looks dangerous floating back into F50 id persist with that just a shame he lacks support

Max King, as frustrating as he can be to watch, has still to develop into the big key forward he has been destined to become, but I have not the slightest doubt that he will get there.

In order to assess Max King's progress since he debuted in 2018, it's informative to compare his stats at the same age to those of Carlton's Harry Mackay, who is generally regarded as a gun key forward, as well as Geelong's esteemed Tom Hawkins.

In the four years from age 20 to 23 inclusive:

Tom Hawkins played 80 games and kicked 159 goals, 88 behinds (247 sog)
Harry Mackay played 65 games and kicked 126 goals, 89 behinds (215 sog)
Max King played 71 games and kicked 140 goals, 113 behinds (253 sog)

These stats make a mockery of those who are so determined to trade Max King to another club!!!

"A" Grade tall key forwards don't grow on trees, with a little more accuracy Max would have left the other two in his wake....

This is a great post. Max compares favourably to basically any modern forward despite his issues with confidence and continuity.

I wonder how well Hawkins would have performed in front of our midfield rather than the peak Geelong mids he was getting silver service from

[ace]

Winx or a wimp
He may be able to run fast but he never uses that speed to get separation on a lead.
Once an opponent with the ball has 2 metres on him he is too lazy to chase HARD to apply pressure, just gives up after jogging a few steps.
If you could get a top 5 draft pick in exchange I would trade him any day.
If St Kilda is still near the bottom of the ladder after 2026 try for a first round free agent compensation draft pick.

St Kilda needs an Ace not a King

[samuraisaint]

I watched the Doggies vs Pies.
Several times, they had 3 talls moving apart from each other, like 20m -30m apart.
Commentators highlighted this.
Saying it stretched the defence and the talls didn't spoil each other.
Also, the delivery is a lot better than ours.

Several times, I think we had King and Caminiti in the same pack, and they don't really know how to keep out Barrass and McGovern.

Harvey needs to find a way to get King, Membrey and Caminiti to stretch defences and work together.
Until then, we'll struggle to kick over 10 goals in a game.

Ideally, King should get 3-5, Higgo 2-3, Caminiti 2 or so, Membrey 2 maybe, and Butler popping up for 2 out the back.
Then Darcy and Wood taking strong marks and converting.
We have the tools in the F50, just need to find the best way to gel

There’s a bit of that but opposition pay Ugle Hagen Darcy or Naughton much more respect thank King Membrey Caminiti
Your point is still valid though and all the more reason why we need to;
1. Spread defenders
2. Lower eyes into 50
3. IF King draws a crowd…look elsewhere

I’m convinced we resort to bombing into 50 not because it’s our “game plan”
It’s because our players resort to this and slamming it on the boot when under pressure from better opponents
I do think it’s psychological/ingrained to a degree and until we have players with the skill and confidence to not take the dump kick out under pressure…our forward entries will continue to suffer
Of course midfield is the other forward of centre issue…
We saw yesterday- we break even/get on top around the contest we can score
I remember last year watching us blitz Carlton first half - mids all over them we led by 5 goals
After half time?? Cripps , Dow and co got to work …we fell away badly ….lost by 6 comfortably
I know Crouch is still under done ….but I am keen to see what a midfield with him, Dow, Steele, Clark goes like …
That said….im also keen to stay bottom 3 …I want top 5 draft pick to recruit a genuine gun mid …

Don't bank on bottom 3 or high picks yet. We've all talked about tanking, but in reality it isn't in Ross' DNA. As long as its possible to win 13 games, he'll still have an eye on that. I still think its more likely we start winning games, now that our List is healthy, than finish bottom 4. I don't know that for sure, but I'm leaning that way.
It wasn't a win for the ages on the weekend, but it was a good win, in that a few things started to click and we've stopped fumbling.

There's a big difference between being able to stop fumbling against the Eagles and other teams though. We need to do it two weeks in a row.

[Otiman]

Forward coach should be first on our wishlist this year. Someone that will be considered the saviour of King's career.

Harves to the midfield and Goddard to ??

[Killa]

As I have put on this site many times what St Kilda need is support for King, support for Howard and support for Marshall

Do we have those supports on our List and developing - such as Keeler and Caminiti and Van Es and Heath?

Then our midfield needs a class contributor with the pace and skills to hit the scoreboard

So our midfield improves from honest and adequate to include a dynamic performer therefore dangerous

[The G Train Legacy]

I watched the Doggies vs Pies.
Several times, they had 3 talls moving apart from each other, like 20m -30m apart.
Commentators highlighted this.
Saying it stretched the defence and the talls didn't spoil each other.
Also, the delivery is a lot better than ours.

Several times, I think we had King and Caminiti in the same pack, and they don't really know how to keep out Barrass and McGovern.

Harvey needs to find a way to get King, Membrey and Caminiti to stretch defences and work together.
Until then, we'll struggle to kick over 10 goals in a game.

Ideally, King should get 3-5, Higgo 2-3, Caminiti 2 or so, Membrey 2 maybe, and Butler popping up for 2 out the back.
Then Darcy and Wood taking strong marks and converting.
We have the tools in the F50, just need to find the best way to gel

There’s a bit of that but opposition pay Ugle Hagen Darcy or Naughton much more respect thank King Membrey Caminiti
Your point is still valid though and all the more reason why we need to;
1. Spread defenders
2. Lower eyes into 50
3. IF King draws a crowd…look elsewhere

I’m convinced we resort to bombing into 50 not because it’s our “game plan”
It’s because our players resort to this and slamming it on the boot when under pressure from better opponents
I do think it’s psychological/ingrained to a degree and until we have players with the skill and confidence to not take the dump kick out under pressure…our forward entries will continue to suffer
Of course midfield is the other forward of centre issue…
We saw yesterday- we break even/get on top around the contest we can score
I remember last year watching us blitz Carlton first half - mids all over them we led by 5 goals
After half time?? Cripps , Dow and co got to work …we fell away badly ….lost by 6 comfortably
I know Crouch is still under done ….but I am keen to see what a midfield with him, Dow, Steele, Clark goes like …
That said….im also keen to stay bottom 3 …I want top 5 draft pick to recruit a genuine gun mid …

Don't bank on bottom 3 or high picks yet. We've all talked about tanking, but in reality it isn't in Ross' DNA. As long as its possible to win 13 games, he'll still have an eye on that. I still think its more likely we start winning games, now that our List is healthy, than finish bottom 4. I don't know that for sure, but I'm leaning that way.
It wasn't a win for the ages on the weekend, but it was a good win, in that a few things started to click and we've stopped fumbling.

There's a big difference between being able to stop fumbling against the Eagles and other teams though. We need to do it two weeks in a row.

True, but the Eagles aren't bad this year, particularly on their home deck. We still fumbled against North.

[Vortex]

Looks like the porcelain giraffe is a chance to play, has he got a glass jaw? Goes off easy, does he have confidence in his body?

[Teflon]

In the 4th quarter I saw a lot of lowering the eyes and bullet passes to forwards working hard ans presenting to honour good work up field. When was the last time we kicked 5 goals in a quarter.

When was the last time our midfield was well on top in a game? Before Saturday, I mean. Probably Collingwood.

Look, King has a way to go in terms of forward craft, I agree, but I think he will get there. It’s important that we get multiple dangerous options around him to take advantage of the fact that he usually draws two of the opposition’s best defenders,

You nailed it Carl
This Max King pile on by Vortex (line he did on Sharman) is nonsense and doesn’t address the root cause
The difference in our playing and scoring ability was laid bare 2nd half against Eagles - 5 goal last quarter not a problem
Why?
We got on top in midfield
Massive question is: can this midfield repeat it against better quality under more pressure?
Or
Will we see revert to dump kicks out if congestion bombing forward again when heat comes on??
I sadly think the latter which is why I’m all in on a top 5 draft pick this year and possible trades to bolster that so we can fix this midfield issue once and for all
Failure for us this year is a run on wins….honourable 9/10th finish and out of the elite kids in the draft
MUST take our medicine this year
Land LDU next
Rise.

[bigcarl]

I sadly think the latter which is why I’m all in on a top 5 draft pick this year and possible trades to bolster that so we can fix this midfield issue once and for all
Failure for us this year is a run on wins….honourable 9/10th finish and out of the elite kids in the draft
MUST take our medicine this year
Land LDU next
Rise.

We'll see. One question though. Do you really think Ross will slam on the handbrake in the unlikely event that we do get a run on? Not sure that is in his nature.

But you seem to know him better than most

[Killa]

And when effective going forward v WCE, who were the players the ball was in the hands of?

[Scollop]

Liam Henry had 2 goal assists for the day(the most of any Saint). 1 GA in the 2nd quarter and 1 GA in the 3rd.

Goal assists in the last quarter were courtesy of Higgins, Butler, Owens, Steele and Windhager

[Scollop]

Inside 50's in the last quarter included
Battle, 1
Dow 1
Wood 1
Windy 1
Henry 1
Hill 2
Steele 2
Membrey 3

Not what you'd expect. Also Sinclair had no inside 50's for the whole match, but he was important in a few score involvements.

[Vortex]

Liam Henry had 2 goal assists for the day(the most of any Saint). 1 GA in the 2nd quarter and 1 GA in the 3rd.

Goal assists in the last quarter were courtesy of Higgins, Butler, Owens, Steele and Windhager

And Caminiti was involved in some nice goal assists.

Our forwards won us the game by kicking more goals than the opposition.

Hopefully our forward line can work juat as well with King in there this week.

[Teflon]

I sadly think the latter which is why I’m all in on a top 5 draft pick this year and possible trades to bolster that so we can fix this midfield issue once and for all
Failure for us this year is a run on wins….honourable 9/10th finish and out of the elite kids in the draft
MUST take our medicine this year
Land LDU next
Rise.

We'll see. One question though. Do you really think Ross will slam on the handbrake in the unlikely event that we do get a run on? Not sure that is in his nature.

But you seem to know him better than most

Let me roll over and ask him…
I hope so
I said this 4 years ago under Richardson inn”Torn” thread ….we lack talent…
We aren’t a “big” club dragging in FAs
We’ve been successful only in the past when we hit the draft…and drafted well (yes you have to pick well)
There is no “Hannerbury short cuts”
Take the hit get the picks ….id even gave an eye on next year tbh as well …we are 3 years off it imo
That means Lyon will be gone that’s ok …set us up for a sustained tilt BEFORE Tassie handouts kick in..
do it now.

[bigcarl]

I sadly think the latter which is why I’m all in on a top 5 draft pick this year and possible trades to bolster that so we can fix this midfield issue once and for all
Failure for us this year is a run on wins….honourable 9/10th finish and out of the elite kids in the draft
MUST take our medicine this year
Land LDU next
Rise.

We'll see. One question though. Do you really think Ross will slam on the handbrake in the unlikely event that we do get a run on? Not sure that is in his nature.

But you seem to know him better than most

Let me roll over and ask him…
I hope so

Well it would be tough for him to suppress a competitive instinct that, to all appearances, runs pretty deep.

For instance, I can’t see him wanting to be outcoached this weekend by triple-premiership upstart Hardwick.

I do fully agree that we need more talent, but can’t quite come around to the idea of bottoming out as the only way forward.

To me, we run the risk of becoming a basket-case club like Norf of the past few years. You lose fans and what free agent in his right mind wants to join a rabble? It’s a long way back from where Norf is. Plus the coach seldom survives the journey. Well, GT did … but that was a rarity.

Anyhow, we do agree that Ross is the right man to set us on the journey, one way or another. Cheers