Leadership group

[Life Long Saint]

We've been void of AFL-standard leadership since Riewoldt retired.

And why was Riewoldt a good leader? Because he was developed under a system that understood what leadership really meant.

Who do we have?
1- Steele - Capt
2 - Wilkie- VC
3 - Sinclair
4 - Ross
5 - Marshall

How many of those actually lead in addition to being our better players?
Leadership isn't making your best player captain, vice captain, or dvc...Some of the best leaders are players that you'd never put in the best players, but are some of the first you'd pick.
It was no fluke that under Thomas and Lyon that we had great leaders in the club...Hayes, Ball, Hamill, Harvey, Riewoldt...I am sure if the system was allowed to continue, you could have added Dal Santo, Goddard, McEvoy, etc to the list.
We needed to go back to the rotating captain model after Riewoldt relinquished the captancy and handed it over to Geary.

None of the players in the leadership group scream leader to me...other than they lead by example...But that is but one quality of a leader.

I wonder if we have a program for our leadership group that helps them become better leaders?

Hill and Wood are leaders. That is clear as day. I'd bet Tom Campbell is, too.

Being a leader is not a 'job' or a 'role', it's not about seniority. It's in everything you do.

Hannebery was a leader...Probably the best we've had since Riewoldt.
Hill definitely is.
Not sure about Wood. He may be.

I am not convinced that Steele, Sinclair, and Marshall are good leaders.
They are all great footballers, but that doesn't necessarily make good leaders.

[Yorkeys]

Isn't this ensemble another governance mechanism linking playing group to the other organisational groups?
As far, which is little, as I know there are no extra payments to group members and selection is a bit of a beauty contest, except the captain and vices need to be in.
So while the players might be recognising qualities in the group when voting it doesn't mean a mutual obligation to lead and be lead on field is created - or does it?

[The_Dud]

One of the issues with our leadership group is their individual form.

Steele - tries hard but is a shadow of his AA self
Wilkie - tries hard but down on last year
Sinclair - down on last year
Ross - almost gone
Marshall - great player but has major holes in his game that can be exposed

Maybe they're too worried about their own game at the moment which is hurting the team?

[SaintWiki]

One of the issues with our leadership group is their individual form.

Steele - tries hard but is a shadow of his AA self
Wilkie - tries hard but down on last year
Sinclair - down on last year
Ross - almost gone
Marshall - great player but has major holes in his game that can be exposed

Maybe they're too worried about their own game at the moment which is hurting the team?

A bit hard on Marshall - I guess you can find major holes in his game if you expect him to cover every position on the ground. I would say he has been astounding and am not surprised that he doesn't live up to some supporters expectations all the time.

[The_Dud]

One of the issues with our leadership group is their individual form.

Steele - tries hard but is a shadow of his AA self
Wilkie - tries hard but down on last year
Sinclair - down on last year
Ross - almost gone
Marshall - great player but has major holes in his game that can be exposed

Maybe they're too worried about their own game at the moment which is hurting the team?

A bit hard on Marshall - I guess you can find major holes in his game if you expect him to cover every position on the ground. I would say he has been astounding and am not surprised that he doesn't live up to some supporters expectations all the time.

You'd struggle to find a better ruckman around the ground than Marshall, he is great, but when it comes to ruck contests (which is a very important part of his job) he is ordinary compared to his peers. Just look at what Gawn did on the weekend.

Marshall needs a Paddy Ryder style ruckman to come in and help, so its not all on his shoulders.

[Life Long Saint]

Marshall needs a Paddy Ryder style ruckman to come in and help, so its not all on his shoulders.

Good luck finding one of those!

I'd settle for any help that he can get...And that is not Caminiti or Owens.

[WellardSaint]

Wood is apparently a good leader.
He's taken NAS under his wing, I think I read an interview with NAS where he said he moved in with Wood for 6 mths or so and said Wood taught him so much about nutrition, preparation- maybe getting enough sleep, doing lots of stretches pregame+postgame, using icepacks etc. Remember Wood had lots of injuries with North, and he discovered a ballet physio person who taught him heaps- now a lot of AFL guys are visiting that ballet guy

[The_Dud]

Marshall needs a Paddy Ryder style ruckman to come in and help, so its not all on his shoulders.

Good luck finding one of those!

I'd settle for any help that he can get...And that is not Caminiti or Owens.

Exactly.

Bring in Campbell, bring in Heath, just do something different, what's the worst that can happen at this point?

[Life Long Saint]

Wood is apparently a good leader.
He's taken NAS under his wing, I think I read an interview with NAS where he said he moved in with Wood for 6 mths or so and said Wood taught him so much about nutrition, preparation- maybe getting enough sleep, doing lots of stretches pregame+postgame, using icepacks etc. Remember Wood had lots of injuries with North, and he discovered a ballet physio person who taught him heaps- now a lot of AFL guys are visiting that ballet guy

TBH, I am more interested in on-field leadership.
Wood may be great, but I don't know enough to comment.

[Scollop]

We've been void of AFL-standard leadership since Riewoldt retired.

And why was Riewoldt a good leader? Because he was developed under a system that understood what leadership really meant.

That 'system' was obviously born under Grant Thomas. Great leadership is empowering individuals to become leaders themselves

Grant gave trust and confidence and guidance. He mentored our young recruits.

Riewoldt was appointed sole captain in 2007 and did a wonderful job up until 2010. I think he asked or suggested he stand down after that ...due to his sister's illness and the inevitable death that came along was very traumatic. He knew it would affect him and affect his ability to captain.

He was nominated captain by his team mates every year after 2011 because....they just got used to it

I don't think he was a great captain from 2011-2015.

If Riewoldt was a great 'leader' he would have done more to retain Stanley/McEvoy. He was inpatient. He was not the best person when it came to embracing young talent.

If he was a great leader he would have organised with the CEO and list manager to get our salary cap issues sorted. Goddard and Dal Santo could have stayed. Maybe a different captain might have been able to convince Ross Lyon and Luke Ball to work out their differences

If Roo was a great leader, he would have mentored other leaders who played under him. If he was a great leader, he wouldn't have flapped his arms for 3 years every time a young player didn't hit him lace out in the chest.

I think once Rooy realised that his career would be coming to end very soon, he became a better leader. I think he gave of himself more (gave more of his time rather) and started mentoring Gears and other younger players in that last year or so of his captaincy.

I think the void left behind when Roo and Joey retired was evident in 2018. I think if Roo was a better leader, that wouldn't have happened.

[B.M]

Marshall

Like all of our best players, is not the problem

It’s the ones who are poor that is hurting us

Your best players can’t do more than play well, it’s the players who aren’t playing well that is the problem

Paddy Ryder actually caused Marshall to be more ineffective
Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman


And he, as a ruckman averaged 8 possessions per game.

Marshall is actually the least of our problems

Forward line - dysfunction
Midfield- lacks quality
Backline
With Sincs, good, without Sincs lacks run
Howard is the weakness there

[Life Long Saint]

We've been void of AFL-standard leadership since Riewoldt retired.

And why was Riewoldt a good leader? Because he was developed under a system that understood what leadership really meant.

That 'system' was obviously born under Grant Thomas. Great leadership is empowering individuals to become leaders themselves

Grant gave trust and confidence and guidance. He mentored our young recruits.

Riewoldt was appointed sole captain in 2007 and did a wonderful job up until 2010. I think he asked or suggested he stand down after that ...due to his sister's illness and the inevitable death that came along was very traumatic. He knew it would affect him and affect his ability to captain.

He was nominated captain by his team mates every year after 2011 because....they just got used to it

I don't think he was a great captain from 2011-2015.

If Riewoldt was a great 'leader' he would have done more to retain Ball, Goddard and Dal Santo. If he was a great leader he would have organised with the CEO and list manager to get our salary cap issues sorted. If Roo was a great leader, he would have mentored other leaders who played under him. If he was a great leader, he wouldn't have flapped his arms for 3 years every time a young player didn't hit him lace out in the chest.

I think once Rooy realised that his career would be coming to end very soon, he became a better leader. I think he gave of himself more (game more of his time rather) and started mentioning Gears and other younger players in that last year or so of his captaincy.

I think the void left behind when Roo and Joey retired was evident in 2018. I think if Roo was a better leader, that wouldn't have happened.

It was the current coach that appointed Riewoldt sole captain.
The system in place after Thommo departed did not allow young players to develop as leaders.
How do you what Riewoldt did or didn't do to try and retain Ball, BJ, and Dal? I'd hate for the skipper to make recruting/list decisions at a football club. What an odd suggestion that is. In so far as mentoring other leaders, I am sure he did that with the leadership group, but I saw no evidence of the footy department trying to develop young players into leaders. In fact, we did the opposite. We took U18 leaders and made them worker bees.

It was clear that Riewoldt and Geary were allowed to hold on to the captaincy for too long before handing it over.
GT recognised that we had a leadership gap when he became coach...He immediately rectified it by instituting the rotating captancy...I was against it to start with but was a life long convert after seeing the results.
Lyon, Watters, Richo, and Ratten went with more traditional models - which is perpelxing after reaping some of the success of the previous model.

[Life Long Saint]

Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman

If Marshall is an A grade ruckman, where does that put Gawn and others who have soundly beaten him this season?

If you're picking a team from scratch and were only allowed 1 ruckman, you're not picking Marshall.

It's a pity we couldn't land Xerri a few years ago.

[The_Dud]

Marshall

Like all of our best players, is not the problem

It’s the ones who are poor that is hurting us

Your best players can’t do more than play well, it’s the players who aren’t playing well that is the problem

Paddy Ryder actually caused Marshall to be more ineffective
Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman


And he, as a ruckman averaged 8 possessions per game.

Marshall is actually the least of our problems

Forward line - dysfunction
Midfield- lacks quality
Backline
With Sincs, good, without Sincs lacks run
Howard is the weakness there

Saying Marshall is beyond improvement is a ridiculous, but very St Kilda, thing to say.

Every player on our list can do better and has room to improve.

[CURLY]

Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman

If Marshall is an A grade ruckman, where does that put Gawn and others who have soundly beaten him this season?

If you're picking a team from scratch and were only allowed 1 ruckman, you're not picking Marshall.

It's a pity we couldn't land Xerri a few years ago.

Well you definitely wouldn't be picking Xerri.

[Yorkeys]

Gawn is a freak.
Melbourne are fortunate to have him. Much poorer team without him.
He would have his own category. AA isn't high enough.

[Scollop]

We've been void of AFL-standard leadership since Riewoldt retired.

And why was Riewoldt a good leader? Because he was developed under a system that understood what leadership really meant.

Who do we have?
1- Steele - Capt
2 - Wilkie- VC
3 - Sinclair
4 - Ross
5 - Marshall

How many of those actually lead in addition to being our better players?
Leadership isn't making your best player captain, vice captain, or dvc...Some of the best leaders are players that you'd never put in the best players, but are some of the first you'd pick.
It was no fluke that under Thomas and Lyon that we had great leaders in the club...Hayes, Ball, Hamill, Harvey, Riewoldt...I am sure if the system was allowed to continue, you could have added Dal Santo, Goddard, McEvoy, etc to the list.
We needed to go back to the rotating captain model after Riewoldt relinquished the captancy and handed it over to Geary.

None of the players in the leadership group scream leader to me...other than they lead by example...But that is but one quality of a leader.

I wonder if we have a program for our leadership group that helps them become better leaders?

Hill and Wood are leaders. That is clear as day. I'd bet Tom Campbell is, too.

Being a leader is not a 'job' or a 'role', it's not about seniority. It's in everything you do.

Hannebery was a leader...Probably the best we've had since Riewoldt.
Hill definitely is.
Not sure about Wood. He may be.

I am not convinced that Steele, Sinclair, and Marshall are good leaders.
They are all great footballers, but that doesn't necessarily make good leaders.

I'm not sure you're identifying some of the attributes of a leader that are just as important as having a 'mouth'

Hannebery definitely understands the game. He definitely had the aura and charisma that comes from being a great player (which he was... prior to coming to us)...but your reputation and your voice and your 'mouth' aren't going to help you if you can't get out on the park

I think the attitude and energy and willingness to embrace ALL your team mates is one that is undervalued

I see Steele, Sinclair, Seb Ross and Marshall as guys who have these values. Especially our captain. I think it's one of the reasons that the team performed as well as it did early on in 2023.

Our player leadership on the track and during games was the main reason we made finals. Their trust and connection with their young team mates is why our young guys have come on so quickly.

Steele works well with our young draftees and with new recruits.

Steele's repeated efforts to bring both Dow and Henry into the game on the weekend was an example of how he wants 'new' players to succeed and feel valued in the team

[Life Long Saint]

Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman

If Marshall is an A grade ruckman, where does that put Gawn and others who have soundly beaten him this season?

If you're picking a team from scratch and were only allowed 1 ruckman, you're not picking Marshall.

It's a pity we couldn't land Xerri a few years ago.

Well you definitely wouldn't be picking Xerri.

Clearly...My point, which was probably not well made, was that a Xerri/Marshall combo would be pretty handy.

[Life Long Saint]

I'm not sure you're identifying some of the attributes of a leader that are just as important as having a 'mouth'

Hannebery definitely understands the game. He definitely had the aura and charisma that comes from being a great player (which he was... prior to coming to us)...but your reputation and your voice and your 'mouth' aren't going to help you if you can't get out on the park

I think the attitude and energy and willingness to embrace ALL your team mates is one that is undervalued

I see Steele, Sinclair, Seb Ross and Marshall as guys who have these values. Especially our captain. I think it's one of the reasons that the team performed as well as it did early on in 2023.

Our player leadership on the track and during games was the main reason we made finals. Their trust and connection with their young team mates is why our young guys have come on so quickly.

Steele works well with our young draftees and with new recruits.

Steele's repeated efforts to bring both Dow and Henry into the game on the weekend was an example of how he wants 'new' players to succeed and feel valued in the team

We're probably not going to agree.
Our on-field leadership has been wanting for a decade.
We struggle to stop a run on from the opposition.

Yes, Hannebery struggled to get on the park, not his fault. Didn't make his leadership qualities less.
Either Steele is not that good an on-field leader or our young players (especially midfielders) don't take instruction well. We are as poor a clearance team as I can recall. With coaches unable to relay as many messages as they have done, the on-field pseudo coach means so much more.

Leadership on the field is more than do what I do. Robert Harvey, as great as he was, didn't make as good an on-field leader as Roo, Ball, Hayes, and Hamill that followed him...Might also be why he hasn't been given a senior coaching gig.

[Scollop]

I'm not sure you're identifying some of the attributes of a leader that are just as important as having a 'mouth'

Hannebery definitely understands the game. He definitely had the aura and charisma that comes from being a great player (which he was... prior to coming to us)...but your reputation and your voice and your 'mouth' aren't going to help you if you can't get out on the park

I think the attitude and energy and willingness to embrace ALL your team mates is one that is undervalued

I see Steele, Sinclair, Seb Ross and Marshall as guys who have these values. Especially our captain. I think it's one of the reasons that the team performed as well as it did early on in 2023.

Our player leadership on the track and during games was the main reason we made finals. Their trust and connection with their young team mates is why our young guys have come on so quickly.

Steele works well with our young draftees and with new recruits.

Steele's repeated efforts to bring both Dow and Henry into the game on the weekend was an example of how he wants 'new' players to succeed and feel valued in the team

We're probably not going to agree.
Our on-field leadership has been wanting for a decade.
We struggle to stop a run on from the opposition.

Yes, Hannebery struggled to get on the park, not his fault. Didn't make his leadership qualities less.
Either Steele is not that good an on-field leader or our young players (especially midfielders) don't take instruction well. We are as poor a clearance team as I can recall. With coaches unable to relay as many messages as they have done, the on-field pseudo coach means so much more.

Leadership on the field is more than do what I do. Robert Harvey, as great as he was, didn't make as good an on-field leader as Roo, Ball, Hayes, and Hamill that followed him...Might also be why he hasn't been given a senior coaching gig.

I agree with your first sentence

You're also wrong on Harves as an on field leader. I'd be interested to hear what Lenny Hayes thinks of your opinions

[Josh Battle]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/330702/t ... -influence

https://www.afl.com.au/news/39192

[B.M]

It’s funny how our memory serves us

Reiwoldt was widely criticised as Captain for having poor body language, criticising young players if they didn’t kick it to him, and missing crucial shots on goal

Everyone at the time said Lenny Hayes should be captain

Me - I didn’t GAF because captaincy in footy is the only thing in footy more overrated than the coach

It actually means FA

They toss the coin, give a mindless rev up speech, and hopefully play well - because generally they are good players

Our leaders are good players, who generally play well. We carry too many duds

[meher baba]

In this thread, there seem to be a lot of things blamed on our leadership group that are actually the responsibility of our coaching staff.

Eg, it’s hardly the fault of Steele, Wilkie or Marshall that our forward line is currently a complete mess.

[WellardSaint]

Marshall

Like all of our best players, is not the problem

It’s the ones who are poor that is hurting us

Your best players can’t do more than play well, it’s the players who aren’t playing well that is the problem

Paddy Ryder actually caused Marshall to be more ineffective
Marshall is a C Grade Forward and an A Grade Ruckman


And he, as a ruckman averaged 8 possessions per game.

Marshall is actually the least of our problems

Forward line - dysfunction
Midfield- lacks quality
Backline
With Sincs, good, without Sincs lacks run
Howard is the weakness there

Hurts me to say it, but I agree with you on all the above.
A ruckman needs to rest on bench or in fwd line. They can't run all over the ground chasing ball-ups.
Not humanly possible.

Wilkie and Howard are a decent duo, but Cal is too short for a lot of one-on-ones, but Howard's height can help.
Howard's idiocy and brain fades can be lessened by Cal

But we are crying out for a Steven May type.
And the midfield is slow.

[Otiman]

That 'system' was obviously born under Grant Thomas. Great leadership is empowering individuals to become leaders themselves

Grant gave trust and confidence and guidance. He mentored our young recruits.

This is a great take, and I have a few things I'd like to unpack in response to it.

1. Success or otherwise of a playing group is a reflection of the coaches throughout their career. Players that have been through Richo and Ratten are a product of their coaching. A new coach doesn't untrain that period in their career. It's why players that have come in from outside of our team have risen to the top quickly despite 3 changes of coach, and also why a new coach doesn't make a non competitive team competitive immediately.

2. Ross is clearly a micromanager, and Ross v1.0 and v2.0 were not the empowering leadership type. It remains to be seen if 'cuddly' Ross v3.0 can be the empowering, trusting coach he needs to be.

3. Ratts was the trusting, empowering leader but lacked the accountability and desire for elevated standards that Ross and GT have.

4. The GT archetype of leader is what the club needs during a rebuild, but not necessarily as the match day coach. I think we have that in Damian Carroll. I would like to see him more involved in leadership.

5. The role of the head coach is 80% team building and 20% strategy. If Ross can get a good group of assistants to handle the strategy, he can focus on the team building. It's not the best example but the Hinkley/Carr arrangement is one of the clearer setups in the league.