Sack Lyon

[Scollop]

I put myself through watching the game on replay again. It's not too bad when you already know the result. Not as frustrating to watch

Anyhow, I think our whole team is lacking energy and enthusiasm. It looks like a real grind and even a guy like Rowan (who usually flashes his pearly whites a couple of times per game) was a little melancholy

It was great to see Henry kick a goal and it was great when Mich kicked his 3rd goal, which I think put us in front. Oh...yeah...the other guy who creates energy and enthusiasm is Caminiti. He has to stay in the team

At one stage it flashed on screen that it had been 45 or so minutes since we scored. This was just before the final siren. I think goals and goal scoring opportunities provide nourishment for the team. They looked gaunt and malnourished late in the game

[Vortex]

.the other guy who creates energy and enthusiasm is Caminiti. He has to stay in the team

Has in spades what our forward line needs as much as anything else.

I'm over that goal celebration by King of waiving his index finger like the Queen waved at crowds but showing less emotion than the Queen wass capable of.

Someone has to explain to Max that fans go to the footy to watch goals and go nuts over them, and that he should join in on the party sometime and maybe even his excitement might create a bit of excitement...especially for his teammates.

I'm going to admit this out allowed, I don't enjoy watching Max play, he doesn't entertain me.

Give me Caminiti please, at least the kid enjoys a goal.

[spert]

So Teffers

Are you saying he inherited a bad list

Ipso facto

Ratten had a poor list

Meaning it wasn’t his coaching - it was the list then too… right?!

Ratten's defensive systems were s*** and he didn't know where our List was at. So it had a bit to do with his coaching. In hindsight Richo was a better Coach.

Agreed
Ratten had zero defensive game plan
Did it at Carlton too
Shoot out footy looks nice …until someone brings a bigger gun..
Then you’re stuffed
Brett didn’t get that

Lyon is discovering the bigger gun effect in spades this season. One of the KPIs identified from last season that he has failed miserably- kick bigger scores.

[Brunswicksainter]

Silver lining. We should get a soft draw again next year

Maybe. I think hawthorn will be a powerhouse next year and the remaining decade after that. Will probably cop them twice at this rate. North and west coast should also improve.

To be honest last thing we need is a soft draw
It’s fools gold!! Makes us think we are better than we are
I’d take a tougher draw, some top 5 picks and when we rise we do so with talent base that’s sustained success
I don’t want 1 flag then disappear…I’d like to be up for a bit
Do the hard yards now
For those on here who remember….i said exactly this 3 years ago on here in “torn” thread
Richo, Brett led us on a merry dance…we were NEVER competing too 4 with this lot
Lyon knows it
Why do you think he’s pumping the kids in?? He has to

I don’t think we need more youth or high end picks (which are Every chance of being duds anyway).We have the youngest or 2nd youngest 22 playing every week.

[SinCitySainter]

.the other guy who creates energy and enthusiasm is Caminiti. He has to stay in the team

Has in spades what our forward line needs as much as anything else.

I'm over that goal celebration by King of waiving his index finger like the Queen waved at crowds but showing less emotion than the Queen wass capable of.

Someone has to explain to Max that fans go to the footy to watch goals and go nuts over them, and that he should join in on the party sometime and maybe even his excitement might create a bit of excitement...especially for his teammates.

I'm going to admit this out allowed, I don't enjoy watching Max play, he doesn't entertain me.

Give me Caminiti please, at least the kid enjoys a goal.

While you are telling Max that people go to the game to watch goals and go nuts, can you mention it to Lyon as well.

[SteeleSaints]

Put a fork in him, hes done.

Taken a middle team and turned them into a bottom 4 side that cant score. For reference Geelong without a bunch of their best players go to Darwin, get flogged by 60+ points and still manage to kick 100 themselves. At least their supporters have some goals to cheer. We scrap our way to a whoppping average of 72 points a game.

Its rubbish and can't continue.

I cant believe there is a thread on this - how typical of St Kilda supporters after an indifferent start to the year to want to sack the coach! Mind numbing....

[B.M]

Indifference

That’s being a bit kind

[Yorkeys]

Players are expected to be resilient, show composure.
Fans can demand a new coach as soon as they don't have bragging rights, going gets tough.
It's hypocritical, dumb, self indulgent short termism, but many supporters are like that. Not all, but.
Same ones calling for a sacking 5 minutes into the journey will be patting Ross on the back in a season or two.
Rome was not built in a day. But they stuck at it.
That's Rome, not Roma.

[Teflon]

So Teffers

Are you saying he inherited a bad list

Ipso facto

Ratten had a poor list

Meaning it wasn’t his coaching - it was the list then too… right?!

Ratten's defensive systems were s*** and he didn't know where our List was at. So it had a bit to do with his coaching. In hindsight Richo was a better Coach.

Agreed
Ratten had zero defensive game plan
Did it at Carlton too
Shoot out footy looks nice …until someone brings a bigger gun..
Then you’re stuffed
Brett didn’t get that

Lyon is discovering the bigger gun effect in spades this season. One of the KPIs identified from last season that he has failed miserably- kick bigger scores.

You build off defence though
You’ll learn
The team are
He did this last time too
Hang tough - 3 more years Rosco to go

[Teflon]

Silver lining. We should get a soft draw again next year

Maybe. I think hawthorn will be a powerhouse next year and the remaining decade after that. Will probably cop them twice at this rate. North and west coast should also improve.

To be honest last thing we need is a soft draw
It’s fools gold!! Makes us think we are better than we are
I’d take a tougher draw, some top 5 picks and when we rise we do so with talent base that’s sustained success
I don’t want 1 flag then disappear…I’d like to be up for a bit
Do the hard yards now
For those on here who remember….i said exactly this 3 years ago on here in “torn” thread
Richo, Brett led us on a merry dance…we were NEVER competing too 4 with this lot
Lyon knows it
Why do you think he’s pumping the kids in?? He has to

I don’t think we need more youth or high end picks (which are Every chance of being duds anyway).We have the youngest or 2nd youngest 22 playing every week.

We need A grade quality
The quality you get top 5
Compared to 25 is very different
Harley Reid Sheezal Wardlaw Rozee type quality- land 1-2 of these and a FA …we are away
We definitely need more talent

[Teflon]

Put a fork in him, hes done.

Taken a middle team and turned them into a bottom 4 side that cant score. For reference Geelong without a bunch of their best players go to Darwin, get flogged by 60+ points and still manage to kick 100 themselves. At least their supporters have some goals to cheer. We scrap our way to a whoppping average of 72 points a game.

Its rubbish and can't continue.

I cant believe there is a thread on this - how typical of St Kilda supporters after an indifferent start to the year to want to sack the coach! Mind numbing....

We have some dumb fans to be sure..

[Killa]

To put the bulls*** to one side AND identify the idiots who promote it, Ratts NEVER presented that St Kilda had a “top 4” List

I can inform as fact that Brett, in his final season, presented to the Board that our List ranked 14 of 18, and an improvement based on the recruiting of Hill, Ryder and Crouch

Plus the development of the kids, starting from Clark and Coffield

The Board at no time disagreed Brett’s assessment - even when he presented to (obviously) retain his job (not knowing that Lyon was in sight but suspecting)

So cut the crap, people

The List has continued to improve courtesy now of Henry and the development of our kids

It is a process

And it is not about 1 player - St Kilda more than any Club should know that lesson

Plus, all Clubs have deficiencies and all are attempting to improve their Lists

Some get a better look at it than others courtesy of the AFL and Rule changes

The AFL needs its audience

[samoht]

One thing about Richo, if we're going to be fair, was that he knew how to develop players .... Roberton, Steele, Membrey, Bruce, Battle, Ross all flourished and/or had break out years under him.

Richo gave Steele a run-with-role and played Battle who was thought of as a full forward at CHB. Both players gained in confidence and became solid players.

Someone should convince Lyon to try Max King in defence.
Maybe at FB?
Starting with a few simulations during training, maybe?

Open up the forward line ... and the possibilities.

No more bombing it into the F50 as the go-to plan.

We need to concentrate on recruiting quality midfielders ... Max King might be our Weitering?

Lyon might be hampered by the blinkers he chooses to wear?

[spert]

I think it is time for Battle to be put in the forward half- he came to us as a forward anyway. All the talk about Owens should be in the midfield is just pie in the sky, I would like to see him developed as a CHB as I think he would perfect in that role. Battle is more skilful than Owens and has better forward craft and has more mongrel about him, which is what we need in the forward 50. I doubt though if Lyon would do anything such as think out of the box, but it's a thought.

[Killa]

With all due respect, Battle at his height can get away with playing a CHB (nominally)

But it is another matter playing as a key forward at that size where you have an opponent focused on spoiling (at least)

And Owen is 191cm, so smaller again

In regards Ratts and defence, during the season in Queensland, he had Wilkie, Howard, Carlisle as keys and Clark and Coffield on the flanks along with Long

A well set defence but unfortunately all of Ryder, Long and Carlisle were unavailable against Richmond after we beat WB in the first final

When we beat Richmond during the season both Carlisle and Long were in the Brownlow votes

And it was Ratts who challenged Steele to evolve from a run with performer

[spert]

With all due respect, Battle at his height can get away with playing a CHB (nominally)

But it is another matter playing as a key forward at that size where you have an opponent focused on spoiling (at least)

And Owen is 191cm, so smaller again

In regards Ratts and defence, during the season in Queensland, he had Wilkie, Howard, Carlisle as keys and Clark and Coffield on the flanks along with Long

A well set defence but unfortunately all of Ryder, Long and Carlisle were unavailable against Richmond after we beat WB in the first final

When we beat Richmond during the season both Carlisle and Long were in the Brownlow votes

And it was Ratts who challenged Steele to evolve from a run with performer

What makes a good coach, I don't know, I played under some di$kheads, and also some good guys as coach, but winning games is probably the major indicator, then going on to winning a premiership. I really don't see Lyon in 2024 being any better than Ratten or Richo, possibly worse than Ratten. This is not how we should be going right now- playing a terrible band of team football, with the more experienced players showing little leadership. An American basketball coach told me over in the USA years back, how his players needed to enjoy the game, but motivation of his teams was as important as anything for him as coach.

[samuraisaint]

I don't think height is the be all and end all. Doesn't matter how tall you are if you can't mark the thing or get your hands on the pill!
Owens and Battle do both of those things.

[Teflon]

With all due respect, Battle at his height can get away with playing a CHB (nominally)

But it is another matter playing as a key forward at that size where you have an opponent focused on spoiling (at least)

And Owen is 191cm, so smaller again

In regards Ratts and defence, during the season in Queensland, he had Wilkie, Howard, Carlisle as keys and Clark and Coffield on the flanks along with Long

A well set defence but unfortunately all of Ryder, Long and Carlisle were unavailable against Richmond after we beat WB in the first final

When we beat Richmond during the season both Carlisle and Long were in the Brownlow votes

And it was Ratts who challenged Steele to evolve from a run with performer

What makes a good coach, I don't know, I played under some di$kheads, and also some good guys as coach, but winning games is probably the major indicator, then going on to winning a premiership. I really don't see Lyon in 2024 being any better than Ratten or Richo, possibly worse than Ratten. This is not how we should be going right now- playing a terrible band of team football, with the more experienced players showing little leadership. An American basketball coach told me over in the USA years back, how his players needed to enjoy the game, but motivation of his teams was as important as anything for him as coach.

With all respect- what dross!!
Just “enjoy the game” fellas …
FFS - we’ve had NO midfield all year - relying on a banged up Steele and Windhager to get us over the line
We’ve had since the Pies game - key players in/out of the team from Henry to King to Higgins to Butler (massively under done for small forwards)
EVERYONE knows the list has no depth
As N Buckley said on Fox:
Swap Lyon and Fly ….Lyon would do considerably better coaching Pies than Fly would coaching us
Our performance has f’all to do “guys just not having fun”
Much more to do with - we lack talent
Fact.

[Teflon]

To put the bulls*** to one side AND identify the idiots who promote it, Ratts NEVER presented that St Kilda had a “top 4” List

I can inform as fact that Brett, in his final season, presented to the Board that our List ranked 14 of 18, and an improvement based on the recruiting of Hill, Ryder and Crouch

Plus the development of the kids, starting from Clark and Coffield

The Board at no time disagreed Brett’s assessment - even when he presented to (obviously) retain his job (not knowing that Lyon was in sight but suspecting)

So cut the crap, people

The List has continued to improve courtesy now of Henry and the development of our kids

It is a process

And it is not about 1 player - St Kilda more than any Club should know that lesson

Plus, all Clubs have deficiencies and all are attempting to improve their Lists

Some get a better look at it than others courtesy of the AFL and Rule changes

The AFL needs its audience

Respectfully horse shyte
Has been quoted from multiple sources the Board had enough of Brett’s rose coloured glasses view of the list
The Board asked Jason Blake to get to the bottom of the issues as we were not just losing …but being belted
N Riewoldt and others have also since come out and told us - training standards under Brett were below par
Let’s not re-write history
Ratten was removed after 3 years cause the Board had a gutful

[Teflon]

With all due respect, Battle at his height can get away with playing a CHB (nominally)

But it is another matter playing as a key forward at that size where you have an opponent focused on spoiling (at least)

And Owen is 191cm, so smaller again

In regards Ratts and defence, during the season in Queensland, he had Wilkie, Howard, Carlisle as keys and Clark and Coffield on the flanks along with Long

A well set defence but unfortunately all of Ryder, Long and Carlisle were unavailable against Richmond after we beat WB in the first final

When we beat Richmond during the season both Carlisle and Long were in the Brownlow votes

And it was Ratts who challenged Steele to evolve from a run with performer

What makes a good coach, I don't know, I played under some di$kheads, and also some good guys as coach, but winning games is probably the major indicator, then going on to winning a premiership. I really don't see Lyon in 2024 being any better than Ratten or Richo, possibly worse than Ratten. This is not how we should be going right now- playing a terrible band of team football, with the more experienced players showing little leadership. An American basketball coach told me over in the USA years back, how his players needed to enjoy the game, but motivation of his teams was as important as anything for him as coach.

This analysis from Oh When BF might surprise a few…

****
Yep. Listen to Andy Brayshaw talk about how he wouldn't be the player he is today if Ross Lyon hadn't taught him how to play AFL. Ross instills the right kind of discipline, mindset and understanding of the game. Nearly all the young guys he had at the Dockers in his last 2 years have succeeded and they all pay credit to him when interviewed. Whether or not he stays with this group beyond the next 2 years, he's the right guy to ingrain the right habits and standards for elite performance, just as Paul Roos did at Melbourne.

The other stat (probably already mentioned) that was interesting was:

2021 (Ratten) – avg 75 points per game
2022 (Ratten) – avg 77 points per game
2023 (Lyon) – avg 77 points per game
2024 (Lyon) – avg 72 points per game to date (was 77 points per game after round 8)

We have not meaningfully changed our scoring since Lyon took over. Ratten was no better offensively, despite having a midfield in 2021 with a fit AA Steele, Ryder, Crouch, plus Jones and Billings playing at a higher level. It's all perception.

We have meaningfully improved our defence though. Ratten couldn't coach defence at the Blues or Saints.

Until our midfield improves, we will struggle to score heavily. Crouch and Clark fit will help but the real improvement comes via the young guys learning and continually hitting the draft.

[Otiman]

My read of the last few years of our club coaching 'big picture' is:

2022 - Ratten's last ditch effort with new assistants. Finish 6th-10th.
2023 - Ross's "year of exploration": Play the brand of footy that best suits the current list. Add elite standards for training, on field, and off field. Determine if it's good enough to win a flag. We determined it wasn't. Finish 6-10th.
2024 - Start to develop a game style that can win the next premiership regardless of list. Lean heavily into run and spread, field kicking. Recruitment to suit. Players who don't suit this to be delisted or traded. The "dual narrative" of trying to win games was held onto for a few rounds but is now gone. Finish bottom 4 and get a gun midfielder.
2025 - Build on 2024 and finish mid-table. 20-24 year olds coming into prime.
2026 - Finish top 4, prelim, chance at a GF.

[spert]

Can't see Lyon hanging around for the long term

[saynta]

Can't see Lyon hanging around for the long term

Hope you are right.

[asiu]

Can't see Lyon hanging around for the long term

i can

winning is addictive

[Killa]

It appears that some are of the belief that opinion posted on this site is the fact

In terms of what our midfield delivers out of the contests this has deteriorated absent Ryder assisted by Marshall

Noting Ryder’s availability including because of suspension

The ball being put to advantage assists