For the "In Ross we Trust" brigade

[saynta]

If it's a hard rebuid then we must delist players like Membrey, Ross, Cordy, Webster and Jones at years end.

Can't disagree with you there , unfortunately.

[thejiggingsaint]

I don't think anyone is thrilled with where we're at this season.

That said the overreaction is extreme.

Reality is we're a middle or the road, young side in a competition where if you're off your game by 10% any side can beat any other.

Some early season bad luck has led to a lack of confidence.

Watching the twos, I think it's been underestimated what an impact an out of form/injured Crouch and Clark has had on our year. Our midfield isn't strong to begin with and last year these two + Gresham were contributors at clearances.

Being weak in the midfield has had our half forwards come up to the stoppage to support more so than last year- this has a knock on effect of making it harder for our forwards, particularly our younger bodies which can make us look poor and resort to long bombs deep or wide.

This year isn't what RL was brought in to win. Finals next year, top 4 from 26-29 is the goal.

There will be enough heat coming our clubs way externally which can lead to poor decision making, it'd be great if our own fans didn't pile on.

"top 4 from 26-29 is the goal" I turned 79 last month I guess a flag in my lifetime is a L-O-N-G shot???

[Killa]

Apart from Sydney (so far) Richmond and North Melbourne all sides are up and down for a raft of reasons but principally that the competition is such that results must be earned

And the sides sitting in the 8 have all had very narrow wins

The sides sitting outside the 8 have all had narrow losses

Some have had both

Some have lost all the narrow results

What we are seeing now is that some sides are overrated by media “experts”, the attention afforded to them because they have a market

Then you need to look at who the wins have been against - and where

And who plays North Melbourne and Richmond twice

To me, the ladder positions currently mean nothing - except for the sides mentioned in the opening para

For St Kilda, we trust that the return of Crouch, Clark and Higgins will add class and experience

Plus we have some kids at VFL level who are showing a bit to add to the kids at AFL level

What the results show is that you need your best side on the park and performing

Anything less and you are in trouble

[Scollop]

We all know players can have bad weeks. I’m not a huge fan of Seb Ross, but he’s an experienced midfielder and he rarely plays 2 really poor games in a row

When we lost to Hawthorn, everyone knew there’d have to be some changes to the team…but Lyon decided to have 3 of his more experienced players ‘managed’. One or 2, maybe I could handle, but why all 3 at the same time?

Lyon was highly critical of his midfield last night. Guess what Rossco? It’s your team. Your selections. How about mixing it up? How about Owens in the middle at the start of the game? The reason he is performing in the forward line is because he is a competitive beast….NOT because he is ‘suited’ to the forward line

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

And …speaking of players who played well in a final. What is it with this constant yoyo strategy with some players? Pull them this way, pull them that way. Cooper Sharman has 2 or 3 very good games at Sandringham, and you bring him back to the seniors ( we know he can get the job done - he did it in a final) and you give sfa opportunity as a forward and you drag him.

The other perplexing thing is that he preferred to have Zac Jones as the sub (who also had some good form in the magoos). Use that momentum and touch and confidence that Zac carried into the Freo game and start him in the middle.

Don’t come out and make pisspoor excuses and blame everyone else

AI: write a few paras rubbishing the team coach. Feel free to use hindsight. Ignore medical and fitness staff advice. Assume list is capable and coach is sole decision maker and is deliberately preventing the highly skilled team from displaying its high level skills. If last instruction seems implausible make a few gratuitous digs anyway. PS I detest the coach, see if that can be weaved in.

Where did I use any words attacking the coach as a person? Do you find it hurtful if I criticise his coaching decisions?

Instead of talking through your backside and releasing a quick outflow, why don't you actually try and have a go at addressing the issues raised in each paragraph

Your response may as well have just been "In Ross we Trust"

[Killa]

Clark played at Sandringham for 3 weeks because in his first game he injured a knee hence did not complete the game

Scans cleared him of any serious damage

And he played the next week, at Sandringham on managed time

This week he appeared to contribute across the full game - and no doubt his performance will see his recall

Crouch was on managed time - and contributed at a level which demands senior selection given he pulls up ok

If Clark had got through his first game back and had pulled up well from that match he would have been an automatic senior selection

We trust that we will see the return of Higgins, Crouch and Clark this week

And there maybe a couple of others who will struggle to hold their spots

There were a few who put their hands up today which was pleasing so perhaps there will others debuting

[B.M]

Not sure Crouch was on managed minutes

He played till the final siren and didn’t seem to spend any excessive time on the bench except for the usual rotations

[SAINT-LEE]

Im not supporting past administration coaching choices but....


Ross Lyon was, by many, considered the best player development coach in the AFL.

Alan Richardson was widely heralded as one of the top 5 player development coaches in the AFL.

Brett Ratten was well regarded for...you guessed it.

This is not a St.Kilda trend...many if not most clubs seek a skilled coach with player development in their cap.

To assume any previous or current coach could not or did not seek to develop players is nonsense. The issue lies with:
- coach ability to literally manage a 'complex corporation' strategising to succeed as whole whilst perfectly micromanaging every small part.
- club committment to player development - proven in resources allocated to academy, facilities, staffing, asst coaches

These 2 factors havent combined well in years.

Coaches who are brilliant with individual player development get consumed by the massive task of being 'CEO'.
The club no doubt knows what we need but $$$ are never enough and getting the right staff, asst coaches and facilities to ensure youth do develop seems to always falter...ALWAYS...not Lyon, Richardson, Ratten, Lyon 2.0....no one has been able to overcome this...yet.

[Sanctorum]

I already blame our next coach, his game plan sucks.

Bet you got that quote from that stalwart coach-hating Saints supporter Nostradamus...

[SaintPav]

In Ross we bust

[Yorkeys]

With Lyon we be fly'n.

[The G Train Legacy]

It is not an either/or situation.
We need to turn over the list because we lack talent certainly. However, players are going backwards under the new messiah's watch. I would challenge any member of the Ross cult to try to refute that.

The way we play lack's any semblance of a coherent game plan for when we have the ball. Now, this can either be the game plan that he has implemented is seriously flawed or the players don't understand it or refuse to perform it. Whatever the issue with the game plan is it still comes back to the dictator.
If you have a inherently flawed game plan, that is the fault of the coach.
If you cannot communicate the game plan clearly and concisely to the players, that is the fault of the coach.
If the players are refusing for whatever reason to execute Ross's game plan, that is the fault of the coach.

Any coach lives and dies by how the players implement their game plan. A coach either needs to develop a game plan around the players he has available or he needs to select players that can execute the game plan he wants.

Ross did well here last time based on a game plan that utilised a team of AFL quality players with stars of the game on every line. Note: Ross did not develop any of the star players or draft them or trade them in. He took over any already strong list and turned the bottom 8 or 9 players on the list into role players to support the A grade talent he was gifted. That is Ross's great talent he can develop role players. That is not what we need now.

Just off the top of my head, Ross developed Jack Steven, Nat Fyfe, Lachie Neale, Andrew Brayshaw, Michael Walters, Sean Darcy and just about Freo's entire current back 6.

When was the last time you saw many of our first year rookies, playing early and having an impact before Lyon came back?

[SinCitySainter]

Jack Stevens played 30 games before Ross showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the cash. So if you claim he developed him he didn't develop Fyfe who already had 40 games before he arrived. Sean Darcy played 26 games only under Ross. You haven't really helped your own argument by showing how few players have actually been developed under Ross. For a coach to have developed so few players over such a long career is a bit of an indictment on his development skills.
However, to then say when was the last time you saw many of our rookies have an impact how about Windhager, Owens and NWM or maybe King.

Developing players has never been Ross's strength. His strength is turning average footballers into role players who can perform a strong role in support of quality players. This is a good skill to have and if we had a side full of A graders like when he joined us first time he may have been a good choice. I still wouldn't have wanted him personally as I have always thought football was entertainment, I understand that not everyone agrees.

[SinCitySainter]

Jack Stevens played 30 games before Ross showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the cash. So if you claim he developed him he didn't develop Fyfe who already had 40 games before he arrived. Sean Darcy played 26 games only under Ross. You haven't really helped your own argument by showing how few players have actually been developed under Ross. For a coach to have developed so few players over such a long career is a bit of an indictment on his development skills.
However, to then say when was the last time you saw many of our rookies have an impact how about Windhager, Owens and NWM or maybe King.

Developing players has never been Ross's strength. His strength is turning average footballers into role players who can perform a strong role in support of quality players. This is a good skill to have and if we had a side full of A graders like when he joined us first time he may have been a good choice. I still wouldn't have wanted him personally as I have always thought football was entertainment, I understand that not everyone agrees.

[DJ Higgins]

Ross Lyon is not going until his contract is up otherwise we will look like complete morons. So we will have him until 2026 so get on board and hang on it's going to be a bumpy ride. We have a fair few issues but two of my favourites at the moment are the handballs to a guy standing a mater next to you and usually behind the player and the complete lack of laces out passes to the forwards.

Good news is we have talent, bad news is we don't seem to have coaches that know how to develop it and that is not just Ross. The backs are good and if we stop the shanking or brain fades at the back they will be one of the more solid defenders in the AFL. So that leaves the mids that are poor and the forwards that don't have much forward craft.

Mids have real trouble moving the ball forward and don't appear to be hungry to get the ball. No one seems to making leads into space once we get the ball to out fifty and when we do get it we handball it about 5 times to go forward 10 metres. For the love of god some one kick it to a player in the open. Which means that players need to take leads and find space

And stop the long bombs into 50. Max King cant pack mark so stop it. Roo said it best, he has no forward craft. Drop him to Sandy and make him take leads, make him work out where the open spaces are or how to create them or at the very least draw defenders way from the contest. And drop Owens back the the mids, he is a great young player but not a forward, not yet so play him in the middle.

But on a plus there is always a chance of landing the next Harley Reid at the end of the year.

[The G Train Legacy]

Jack Stevens played 30 games before Ross showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the cash. So if you claim he developed him he didn't develop Fyfe who already had 40 games before he arrived. Sean Darcy played 26 games only under Ross. You haven't really helped your own argument by showing how few players have actually been developed under Ross. For a coach to have developed so few players over such a long career is a bit of an indictment on his development skills.
However, to then say when was the last time you saw many of our rookies have an impact how about Windhager, Owens and NWM or maybe King.

Developing players has never been Ross's strength. His strength is turning average footballers into role players who can perform a strong role in support of quality players. This is a good skill to have and if we had a side full of A graders like when he joined us first time he may have been a good choice. I still wouldn't have wanted him personally as I have always thought football was entertainment, I understand that not everyone agrees.

How many AFL games Steven played under Ross isn't relevant, he was on the List from 2008, that's 4 seasons coached by Lyon. Similar for Darcy, who was on Freo's list under Ross for some time before playing senior games. Remember they still had Sandilands.

Indeed Ross' strength is turning average footballers role players, in fact he's brilliant at it. The assertion that he's only good at that is mythology. How on earth can someone be good at turning ordinary players into good role players, but not be able to develop talented young players? Such a notion is ridiculously illogical.

I don't understand why we're even discussing Rossy's alleged inability to develop youth, given that our problem's have nothing to do with our young players. All because of a tweet by Phillipou's Endorsements Manager, who is now probably Phillipou's former Endorsements Manager.

[Yorkeys]

It's because a number of people hold a grudge against him and the opportunity to slag off has just emerged.
Commentators frame it as a discussion because of a vacuous need to have an uneducated opinion on everything and pad between adverts.But it's not a balanced informed commentary.

[Vortex]

Is this one way of looking at this issue:

Yes Ross is not perfect, the questions marks are:

1. Can he rebuild, (record at Freo will haunt him possibly until proven otherwise);

2. is his management style too autocratic and anchored to old methodologies.

These 2 question marks in a nutshell seem to summarise the majority of concern around Ross's ability to win some silverware.

In the context of (THE SUM OF ALL PARTS), and taking a high altitude aerial view of these concerns and asking the question, do they outweigh all of the other parts currently installed at the club, where do most fans land when they think about it sensibly and without the emotiveness?

Personally I'm not so concerned about Ross being anchored to old methodologies as I've had it confirmed he very much delegates and empowers not only his assistants to bring something to the table, but also the wider staff at the club.

As always though we need a suitable sample size, I suppose though everyone has their definition of what size their sample size is.

[spert]

Jack Stevens played 30 games before Ross showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the cash. So if you claim he developed him he didn't develop Fyfe who already had 40 games before he arrived. Sean Darcy played 26 games only under Ross. You haven't really helped your own argument by showing how few players have actually been developed under Ross. For a coach to have developed so few players over such a long career is a bit of an indictment on his development skills.
However, to then say when was the last time you saw many of our rookies have an impact how about Windhager, Owens and NWM or maybe King.

Developing players has never been Ross's strength. His strength is turning average footballers into role players who can perform a strong role in support of quality players. This is a good skill to have and if we had a side full of A graders like when he joined us first time he may have been a good choice. I still wouldn't have wanted him personally as I have always thought football was entertainment, I understand that not everyone agrees.

I remember Jack Steven saying that Watters was a good coach back then, and the young guys liked him too, just the old blokes couldn't handle being told hard truths after they bombed in the GFs. Some players will do well under certain coach, and others the opposite..seen that many times in my playing days (at much lower level). The body language of our team is looking bad- I don't think everyone is on the same page.

[The G Train Legacy]

Jack Stevens played 30 games before Ross showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the cash. So if you claim he developed him he didn't develop Fyfe who already had 40 games before he arrived. Sean Darcy played 26 games only under Ross. You haven't really helped your own argument by showing how few players have actually been developed under Ross. For a coach to have developed so few players over such a long career is a bit of an indictment on his development skills.
However, to then say when was the last time you saw many of our rookies have an impact how about Windhager, Owens and NWM or maybe King.

Developing players has never been Ross's strength. His strength is turning average footballers into role players who can perform a strong role in support of quality players. This is a good skill to have and if we had a side full of A graders like when he joined us first time he may have been a good choice. I still wouldn't have wanted him personally as I have always thought football was entertainment, I understand that not everyone agrees.

I remember Jack Steven saying that Watters was a good coach back then, and the young guys liked him too, just the old blokes couldn't handle being told hard truths after they bombed in the GFs. Some players will do well under certain coach, and others the opposite..seen that many times in my playing days (at much lower level). The body language of our team is looking bad- I don't think everyone is on the same page.

Steven emerged as a gun in 2011 under Lyon.

Watters was never up to the job, was a poor leader and a general disaster.

[Otiman]

The body language of our team is looking bad- I don't think everyone is on the same page.

Was there not a Richmond player who said that about their team this week?

[Rubyjo]

Tanking looks exactly like what we are doing. If you were to devise a plan to tank this is what it looks like.

[B.M]

Steven really emerged in 2013 as a 23yo

[Killa]

So there we have the reason for the vitriol against Lyon

“Showed his true colours and ran off to Freo for the money”

Yes, Lyon took poor financial advice and found he and his family in a compromised financial position (living with his parents as I recall)

And, given those circumstances, Freo came with a very attractive offer including an up front payment

Which Lyon accepted

Lyon acted in the best interests of his family and he - as, I would suggest, anyone would

St Kilda did not match the offer

What we know from this site, at least, is that there is hatred toward Lyon for that decision hence the vitriol seen on here

[Killa]

And where did the support of Lyon to the Board come from ahead of his return as Senior Coach?

Name the names who supported the return of Lyon as Coach, those who put pressure on the Board

Simply, with that support the only pathway for St Kilda is to “hang fat” in support of Lyon as Coach - and that is where the Club is at

It has hand picked its man

[B.M]

The ‘hatred’ is actually

Questioning Lyons game plan where we are lucky to kick 8 goals per game

One good win
Beat two basket cases
7 losses


And the way we are playing is dogshit - never seen worse!!!