For the "In Ross we Trust" brigade

[Scollop]

Devils Advocate again

Maybe we win 2-3 more games for the year. Worst case scenario sees us finish 16th. More probable is 15th. Yes...that gets us pick 4 or pick 5...but

Instead of the talk about who St Kilda might bring in, could our poor performances herald an exodus of our best players?

Suppose 3-4 of our best players decide they want out in 2024 and again at the end of 2025 ....even guys who are under contract

Would that spell the start of the end for Ross Lyon?

[Scollop]

Would the coterie groups and members and sponsors have enough patience to ride out the next 2 and half years of his current contract while we bottom out?

I can probably answer that myself. I think if the club came out and was honest with the supporter base (instead of the dual natrative) then these sorts of losses like Freo and the Hawks last week, would be easier to accept

However…how would you feel if you are a player? Will you hang around for the next 5-6 years?

[jays]

If u can’t see we don’t have the talent u blind, Ross ain’t going anywhere so get used to it or go follow Tassie, it’s not him or our coaches we simply have s*** players, tell me who else would come in and make us a premiership team? There will be some tough decisions on players come end of the year and I can’t wait tbh we have been a middle of the road s*** team for 10 years need a good player clean out if that mean we trade a Steele or Sinclair so be it

[The Fireman]

THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THE SUPPORTERS
THE NEGATIVITY IS CREEPING RIGHT THROUGH TO THE PLAYERS.

sorry had the caps on.

[spert]

THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THE SUPPORTERS
THE NEGATIVITY IS CREEPING RIGHT THROUGH TO THE PLAYERS.

sorry had the caps on.

To the players and coach- you give us something to smile about, and we'll smile back at you. I don't think they give a stuff about us

[SinCitySainter]

It is not an either/or situation.
We need to turn over the list because we lack talent certainly. However, players are going backwards under the new messiah's watch. I would challenge any member of the Ross cult to try to refute that.

The way we play lack's any semblance of a coherent game plan for when we have the ball. Now, this can either be the game plan that he has implemented is seriously flawed or the players don't understand it or refuse to perform it. Whatever the issue with the game plan is it still comes back to the dictator.
If you have a inherently flawed game plan, that is the fault of the coach.
If you cannot communicate the game plan clearly and concisely to the players, that is the fault of the coach.
If the players are refusing for whatever reason to execute Ross's game plan, that is the fault of the coach.

Any coach lives and dies by how the players implement their game plan. A coach either needs to develop a game plan around the players he has available or he needs to select players that can execute the game plan he wants.

Ross did well here last time based on a game plan that utilised a team of AFL quality players with stars of the game on every line. Note: Ross did not develop any of the star players or draft them or trade them in. He took over any already strong list and turned the bottom 8 or 9 players on the list into role players to support the A grade talent he was gifted. That is Ross's great talent he can develop role players. That is not what we need now.

[Sainter_Dad]

In Thomas we Trust! LOL /s

[Scollop]

We all know players can have bad weeks. I’m not a huge fan of Seb Ross, but he’s an experienced midfielder and he rarely plays 2 really poor games in a row

When we lost to Hawthorn, everyone knew there’d have to be some changes to the team…but Lyon decided to have 3 of his more experienced players ‘managed’. One or 2, maybe I could handle, but why all 3 at the same time?

Lyon was highly critical of his midfield last night. Guess what Rossco? It’s your team. Your selections. How about mixing it up? How about Owens in the middle at the start of the game? The reason he is performing in the forward line is because he is a competitive beast….NOT because he is ‘suited’ to the forward line

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

And …speaking of players who played well in a final. What is it with this constant yoyo strategy with some players? Pull them this way, pull them that way. Cooper Sharman has 2 or 3 very good games at Sandringham, and you bring him back to the seniors ( we know he can get the job done - he did it in a final) and you give sfa opportunity as a forward and you drag him.

The other perplexing thing is that he preferred to have Zac Jones as the sub (who also had some good form in the magoos). Use that momentum and touch and confidence that Zac carried into the Freo game and start him in the middle.

Don’t come out and make pisspoor excuses and blame everyone else

[nefron55]

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

Did you miss the part where he injured his calf and was out for 6 weeks and has missed effectively multiple years of footy so might need to build up a base of fitness and touch in the VFL?

[nefron55]

I think if the club came out and was honest with the supporter base (instead of the dual natrative) then these sorts of losses like Freo and the Hawks last week, would be easier to accept

It's very hard for this to occur when supporters fail or actively refuse to listen. The club has said on multiple occasions that after our review that resulted in Ratts' sacking, we were "kidding ourselves" and needed a lot of work on and off field in order to get us competitive again.

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from just 1 month ago:

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from June 2023:

"We want to build towards competing for flags before too long but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.

In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance...

This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else.

We know this process will not be linear."

I'm really not sure where you're pulling the "dual narrative" from. Everything I've heard from the club since the outside review that resulted in Ratts' sacking has been unbelievably clear about where they think we're at.

[Scollop]

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

Did you miss the part where he injured his calf and was out for 6 weeks and has missed effectively multiple years of footy so might need to build up a base of fitness and touch in the VFL?

Clark had a facial injury at the start of the year, that meant he could still run. The calf came later. As I said…he did a full preseason

How long was Hayes out for? How many games did he play in the magoos? It wasn’t 3. What about Henry? Was out for 6-7 weeks and then how many did HE play at VFL level? You know the answer…squat! Are you saying Hayes and Henry have better ‘touch’ than Clark?

[Scollop]

I think if the club came out and was honest with the supporter base (instead of the dual natrative) then these sorts of losses like Freo and the Hawks last week, would be easier to accept

It's very hard for this to occur when supporters fail or actively refuse to listen. The club has said on multiple occasions that after our review that resulted in Ratts' sacking, we were "kidding ourselves" and needed a lot of work on and off field in order to get us competitive again.

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from just 1 month ago:

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from June 2023:

"We want to build towards competing for flags before too long but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.

In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance...

This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else.

We know this process will not be linear."

I'm really not sure where you're pulling the "dual narrative" from. Everything I've heard from the club since the outside review that resulted in Ratts' sacking has been unbelievably clear about where they think we're at.

Address the thread title

Tell me right now what you think Ross is doing well

Tell me right now who you see in the team that Ross is having a positive impact on

Don’t talk to me about Marshall, Hill, or Sinclair or Mason Wood. They were already good players before Lyon arrived

Don’t talk to me about Owens, Windy or NWM. They were developing under Ratts. The signs were already there

He’s not doing a very good job with Pou…let’s hope he doesn’t stuff up Wilson

[Scollop]

If u can’t see we don’t have the talent u blind, Ross ain’t going anywhere so get used to it or go follow Tassie, it’s not him or our coaches we simply have s*** players, tell me who else would come in and make us a premiership team? There will be some tough decisions on players come end of the year and I can’t wait tbh we have been a middle of the road s*** team for 10 years need a good player clean out if that mean we trade a Steele or Sinclair so be it

trade Steele or Sinclair…yeah sure.

Blame the players. Point the finger at the players every week

Good strategy.

[nefron55]

I think if the club came out and was honest with the supporter base (instead of the dual natrative) then these sorts of losses like Freo and the Hawks last week, would be easier to accept

It's very hard for this to occur when supporters fail or actively refuse to listen. The club has said on multiple occasions that after our review that resulted in Ratts' sacking, we were "kidding ourselves" and needed a lot of work on and off field in order to get us competitive again.

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from just 1 month ago:

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from June 2023:

"We want to build towards competing for flags before too long but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.

In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance...

This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else.

We know this process will not be linear."

I'm really not sure where you're pulling the "dual narrative" from. Everything I've heard from the club since the outside review that resulted in Ratts' sacking has been unbelievably clear about where they think we're at.

Address the thread title

Tell me right now what you think Ross is doing well

Tell me right now who you see in the team that Ross is having a positive impact on

Don’t talk to me about Marshall, Hill, or Sinclair or Mason Wood. They were already good players before Lyon arrived

Don’t talk to me about Owens, Windy or NWM. They were developing under Ratts. The signs were already there

He’s not doing a very good job with Pou…let’s hope he doesn’t stuff up Wilson

Address my post? lol

You keep posting about "dual narratives" and its just not backed up by the facts whatsoever. Club had us going in the wrong direction, did an external review and have reset since. You can disagree with the new direction, but communications since then have been extremely clear about where club and coach think we're deficient and how they plan to address it. Draft and recruiting strategy have been aligned with that -- as have selection decisions which see us as one of the youngest teams (playing the kids) week in, week out for 2 years.

And to address your thread title. Frankly, I think we're a mess. I have hope because I've seen us perform better than we currently are, and I've seen more production from individual players (under Ross) than they are currently showing. I've seen us move the ball more fluently in an attacking manner under Ross than we're currently seeing as well. And having one of the best defenses in the league isn't nothing either. That doesn't mean my patience is limitless though. If we keep producing like we are, I'll lose faith in the coach as well. I'm just personally not there yet. Fair enough that you are. Just no need then to impose a false narrative on the club because you're ready for the coach to go.

[Scollop]

I'm just personally not there yet. Fair enough that you are. Just no need then to impose a false narrative on the club because you're ready for the coach to go.

I never had faith to start with

I never wanted Ratts to be replaced. I wanted the club to admit that we needed to hit the draft prior to sacking Ratten. I wanted the club to admit we needed investment in the footy department.

I didn’t start the other thread that said sack Lyon. I haven’t stated I want him sacked in this thread either. I merely asked how fkn long do we have to put up with this sort of crap on field?

If we keep producing like we are, I'll lose faith in the coach as well.

Thank you

Once the decision was made, I thought I’d wait 4 years to see how Lyon goes this time around, but with Geoff Walsh and others departing, I was seeing the same old Ross has returned. Started last year actually when we lost Nick Walsh

Anyhow…I’m sick of how he blames players. I’m sick of the imbalance on this forum where everyone makes excuses for him.

[Life Long Saint]

We have shown, ever since Ross Lyon left for Freo, that we haven't had the cattle.

We draft the right players (maybe one or two incorrect in hindsight) but we have not developed players well. And we haven't since Grant Thomas was in charge.
Who are our chamion players from the past 5-10 years?
Steele - Traded from GWS
Marshall - Mature age rookie
Wilkie - Mature age rookie

Look at the main stays and contenders in the current team...
Wood, Crouch, Higgins, Butler, Howard, Hill, Henry, Jones, Stocker, Cordy, Bonner, Hayes, Sharman...
All recruited from other teams or as mature age.

I am encouraged by some of the draftees we've got, but I fear that we will indoctrinate them into the St Kilda way very soon...Are we already seeing it with Phillipou?

I wonder whether Bont and Petracca would have been the players they are today if they were unfortunate enough to be selected by us?

We can change the coach until the cows come home, but you can't make raspberry jam out of horse manure.
No game plan can survive our skill level. And that has not changed since Watters took over the top job.
We draft skilled kids and turn them all into a mash-up of Clint Jones and Jayson Daniels.

We must improve player development immediately.

[Otiman]

I'll back the coach until he's not the coach anymore, but something is starting to smell a little off.

[nostalgicsaint]

I don't think anyone is thrilled with where we're at this season.

That said the overreaction is extreme.

Reality is we're a middle or the road, young side in a competition where if you're off your game by 10% any side can beat any other.

Some early season bad luck has led to a lack of confidence.

Watching the twos, I think it's been underestimated what an impact an out of form/injured Crouch and Clark has had on our year. Our midfield isn't strong to begin with and last year these two + Gresham were contributors at clearances.

Being weak in the midfield has had our half forwards come up to the stoppage to support more so than last year- this has a knock on effect of making it harder for our forwards, particularly our younger bodies which can make us look poor and resort to long bombs deep or wide.

This year isn't what RL was brought in to win. Finals next year, top 4 from 26-29 is the goal.

There will be enough heat coming our clubs way externally which can lead to poor decision making, it'd be great if our own fans didn't pile on.

[Yorkeys]

We all know players can have bad weeks. I’m not a huge fan of Seb Ross, but he’s an experienced midfielder and he rarely plays 2 really poor games in a row

When we lost to Hawthorn, everyone knew there’d have to be some changes to the team…but Lyon decided to have 3 of his more experienced players ‘managed’. One or 2, maybe I could handle, but why all 3 at the same time?

Lyon was highly critical of his midfield last night. Guess what Rossco? It’s your team. Your selections. How about mixing it up? How about Owens in the middle at the start of the game? The reason he is performing in the forward line is because he is a competitive beast….NOT because he is ‘suited’ to the forward line

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

And …speaking of players who played well in a final. What is it with this constant yoyo strategy with some players? Pull them this way, pull them that way. Cooper Sharman has 2 or 3 very good games at Sandringham, and you bring him back to the seniors ( we know he can get the job done - he did it in a final) and you give sfa opportunity as a forward and you drag him.

The other perplexing thing is that he preferred to have Zac Jones as the sub (who also had some good form in the magoos). Use that momentum and touch and confidence that Zac carried into the Freo game and start him in the middle.

Don’t come out and make pisspoor excuses and blame everyone else

AI: write a few paras rubbishing the team coach. Feel free to use hindsight. Ignore medical and fitness staff advice. Assume list is capable and coach is sole decision maker and is deliberately preventing the highly skilled team from displaying its high level skills. If last instruction seems implausible make a few gratuitous digs anyway. PS I detest the coach, see if that can be weaved in.

[Teflon]

We all know players can have bad weeks. I’m not a huge fan of Seb Ross, but he’s an experienced midfielder and he rarely plays 2 really poor games in a row

When we lost to Hawthorn, everyone knew there’d have to be some changes to the team…but Lyon decided to have 3 of his more experienced players ‘managed’. One or 2, maybe I could handle, but why all 3 at the same time?

Lyon was highly critical of his midfield last night. Guess what Rossco? It’s your team. Your selections. How about mixing it up? How about Owens in the middle at the start of the game? The reason he is performing in the forward line is because he is a competitive beast….NOT because he is ‘suited’ to the forward line

I have posted on a few threads about the perplexing decision to play Hunter Clark in the magoos for 3 weeks in a row. Seriously Rossco!! What the faark? This is a player who had a decent preseason. This is a player who played well in a final last year

No one questions that? Why? Poor decisions and poor use of the available talent.

And …speaking of players who played well in a final. What is it with this constant yoyo strategy with some players? Pull them this way, pull them that way. Cooper Sharman has 2 or 3 very good games at Sandringham, and you bring him back to the seniors ( we know he can get the job done - he did it in a final) and you give sfa opportunity as a forward and you drag him.

The other perplexing thing is that he preferred to have Zac Jones as the sub (who also had some good form in the magoos). Use that momentum and touch and confidence that Zac carried into the Freo game and start him in the middle.

Don’t come out and make pisspoor excuses and blame everyone else

AI: write a few paras rubbishing the team coach. Feel free to use hindsight. Ignore medical and fitness staff advice. Assume list is capable and coach is sole decision maker and is deliberately preventing the highly skilled team from displaying its high level skills. If last instruction seems implausible make a few gratuitous digs anyway. PS I detest the coach, see if that can be weaved in.

[B.M]

If we do become a basket case

It makes recruiting tough

We don’t have the lure of massive crowds, we are not a big club with a proud history.

Ie/ LDU might leave NM or Mcluggage Brisbane
Why would LDU go from one basket case to another?
Why would McLuggage leaver a top 4 team to join a bottom 4 team?!

If players are coming for money alone, we will overpay GOPs just to bring in any players, to look like we are doing something about the list!!!


Slippery slope bottoming out

[Otiman]

Devils Advocate again

Maybe we win 2-3 more games for the year. Worst case scenario sees us finish 16th. More probable is 15th. Yes...that gets us pick 4 or pick 5...but

Instead of the talk about who St Kilda might bring in, could our poor performances herald an exodus of our best players?

Suppose 3-4 of our best players decide they want out in 2024 and again at the end of 2025 ....even guys who are under contract

Would that spell the start of the end for Ross Lyon?

There's a good chance Hawthorn and West Coast finish above us.

[Vortex]

I already blame our next coach, his game plan sucks.

[Vortex]

Devils Advocate again

Maybe we win 2-3 more games for the year. Worst case scenario sees us finish 16th. More probable is 15th. Yes...that gets us pick 4 or pick 5...but

Instead of the talk about who St Kilda might bring in, could our poor performances herald an exodus of our best players?

Suppose 3-4 of our best players decide they want out in 2024 and again at the end of 2025 ....even guys who are under contract

Would that spell the start of the end for Ross Lyon?

There's a good chance Hawthorn and West Coast finish above us.

They are both actually a few years ahead of us in their hard rebuilds so it's a very easy prediction to make, and West Coast have Reid to build a midfield around.

And at some point North's uber talented bunch of kids will start to reach that sweet spot of games into kids and start rising up the ladder.

The club probably needs to get on the front foot and and own the dual narrative but tease it out a little and put a bit more meat on the bone so the members and sponsors know what's before us over the next few years.

It's a hard rebuild...you have to experience a little pain unfortunately.

[Otiman]

If it's a hard rebuid then we must delist players like Membrey, Ross, Cordy, Webster and Jones at years end.