Sack Lyon

[meher baba]

The only good thing about last night was our defensive setup continuing to work well, as it has done for a few years now: it started to come good in 2021 and is largely the work of Enright. We are quite capable of containing the scoring of opponents to a level that we could beat if we could actually deliver anything much in attack.

Outside of our defensive 50, Lyon appears to want us to adopt a tactic of frenetically moving the ball forward at all costs. This tactic was also a big part of our game plan under Ratten and even Richo. There's not much wrong with it as a strategy, but you need the right lineup of players to bring it off. And there is also the problem that it uses up a lot of energy and means that players quite often find themselves taking set shots when they are totally puffed and are finding it difficult to concentrate properly. We have seen that problem quite a lot this season and it was extremely obvious with Freo last night, who play more or less the same style of game than us, but with a more attacking midfield setup. 

But at least Freo were creating lots of opportunities to score. We weren't and, as I've been saying for weeks, the problem seems to be our set up in front of the ball. Last night we would move the ball out of defence and then kick it down the line and out of bounds on the full, or else kick it to players who were outnumbered by opponents. And, as the game wore on, Freo seemed to be easily able to cut off most of our avenues coming out of defence and steadily push us back. And, as you would expect, players began to fumble and make errors of judgement under the rising pressure.

What you need in order to make Lyon's type of game plan work is for players forward of the ball to run into open space and be available to receive passes. Freo did this extremely well all night. But our forward line, with Higgins and Butler on the sidelines and Membrey dropped, couldn't do much of that. Selection is one factor: a forward line of King, Caminiti and Sharman isn''t exactly abounding with mobility. Two of them would have been enough last night, with perhaps Hill or even NWM tried up forward. We need to give the opposing defenders some difficult choices to make. Freo showed us how to do it. You can dump on Howard all you want, but if we'd put some of the same pressure on the Freo defenders then we might have embarrassed them too. Owens got free a few times, but he was really the only one who seemed to know how to do it consistently.

There is no doubt that something is wrong with the coaching ATM. It was glaringly obvious last night that the game plan wouldn't work with the lineup that we put on the field. So either we need to rejig the lineup or change the game plan. And, either way, the running patterns in the forward line simply aren't working. I think there is an urgent need to get some different thinking in there: the obvious solution being to swap Enright and Harvey. Enright has nothing more to prove down back and Harvey isn't cutting it up front.

And, assuming that we are going to stick with the Lyon game plan, there are some obvious things we need to do re selection. I'm not the greatest fan of Higgins, but he must come straight back in: we need his running up forward. Collard is miles away from AFL quality, so we need to forget about him for now. Reluctantly, I agree that Philippou needs to be sent back to the VFL: I still hope he can make it as a midfielder, but he was being played in the forward line for a lot of last night's game, and he isn't up to that role. If he has a reasonable game today, Membrey should also come straight back in: he's a far more dangerous player against AFL defences than Sharman.

I think suggestions that Lyon is past it and that his game plan is out of date are a little premature. But he is going to need to start adjusting to circumstances. He wants to keep playing chess, but he doesn't have his full chess set available to him. I think he finds it difficult to adjust: he sees the solution as being for players to work harder to give him what he wants, or else he drops them and tries someone else. But he hasn't got a Riewoldt or a Pavlich, or a Sam Fisher, or some of the other cogs for his ideal machine. He's smart, and I think he has more time, possibly the rest of the season, to produce something better. But he's also rather inflexible, which is a worry.

[The Fireman]

I can simplify the above
Fremantle used the ball cleanly. They knew where each other were when they had the ball in their hands and they gave it off to them. They had a good system of disposal that any good Club should have

[meher baba]

I can simplify the above
Fremantle used the ball cleanly. They knew where each other were when they had the ball in their hands and they gave it off to them. They had a good system of disposal that any good Club should have

Thanks: sorry I did get a bit verbose there.

There's something quite defensively-minded about where the players are standing ahead of the ball and where the defenders are being told to kick it. Even though we have the ball in hand, we play like we are terrified that we are going to be killed on turnovers. Lyon certainly doesn't seem to be an adherent to the school of thought that the best form of defence is attack.

[Yorkeys]

Please help understanding this.
If Ross goes Bonner would not have served up that comedic turn over. Steele doesn't give Marshall a hot potato holding the ball, suddenly Dougal is a footballer, Max can hold marks. Is that right, the players are conspiring to fail. Seems to me junior footy brain fades and lack of skills that are killing us, not some Quantum physics based game plan. All those out on the full kicks going into the forward 50. The players can't kick, can't catch seem dumb. Really is Jones the full quid? Half the side has to go. But it's the coach, ok.

[freely]

Not saying he’s tanking I’m saying he’s developing the list.

haha - good one!

[B.M]

But the players were ok last season??

[BadRossco]

Is it all RTB:s fault, he has a team of slow, dumb and unskilled players that would not be capable of following any game plan. The bottom line is you can’t make a silk purse out of pig sh.t

[B.M]

Has that been the case for 13 years or only now

Because it was the coaches fault previously

[bigcarl]

Clearly playing the list to see what’s what.

Collard over Membrey
Patton over Ross

Yeah of course he’s going full tilt

Are you suggesting we're tanking? Certainly may as well now.

Not saying he’s tanking I’m saying he’s developing the list.

Yep, I think he has carte blanche from the president to develop the list. In fact is probably being encouraged to.

RTB’s preference during his first tenure was always for mature-bodied, experienced players over green kids. The difference then was that we actually had the cattle to contend.

Now we don’t, and need to find some, either by developing our own or poaching them from elsewhere.

I think we’ve got to back the coach in for the long haul

[The_Dud]

The coach isn’t the one making the skill errors on field, but the coach is the one who can set the standards.

Our standards are rock bottom, no selection integrity, players can run around knowing they’re undroppable.

[perfectionist]

It's a game plan to enable a team of low skilled and slow players to stay with better teams in the hope they we might win on the back of their errors. It's worked pretty well. Just how we replace 15 players, in order to be a top four team and threat for the flag, will be a bit tricky.

[samuraisaint]

Freo have an experienced and pretty good midfield. They also have a very decent backline.
We are currently having to play 7 or 8 skinny kids every week and up to 10 players who have played less than 50 games, and in several cases, less than 10 games.
An unjury list doesn't get fixed straight away, players need to get match fit, then you have a period of time whereby the players need to consistently play together to build chemistry.
I was not happy tonight and can't believe the issues we're having just to kick a single goal.
But I do think Ross is the man for the job.
It is probably better to see the team as it really is rather than labour under a misapprehension. If we don't have depth and when tested due to injuries and suspensions we have players not at the standard then it is probably better to find out sooner rather than later.
But playing the kids for the sake of playing the kids isn't a successful strategy, so when Clark, Crouch and Higgins are available, they should come straight back in.
It's not the coach guys, it is the poor recruitment, the list (mis)management, and the (lack of) player development for 6 years after 2013 which are the problems.

Is Clark injured?

If he lines up for Sandringham it'll be his
3rd match in a row. Or...is it his 4th (can't remember)

Why does he need 3 games at VFL level when he'd already done a full preseason?

Agreed.

Crouch, Clark, Higgins should all come in next week.

[B.M]

Clark’s 3rd match today

Played last week was just ok

Two weeks ago he came off Q1 with an injury

[Scollop]

I'm watching the Zebs on channel 7. Hunter Clark is in everything. Not only is he clean, but he directs traffic. He understands the game and he is a leader on the field

Ross Lyon was criticising his midfielders last night. He deflects blame away from himself

What the footy world must realise is that it is 'his midfield'. He chooses the team that represents the club each week

Clark should have played last night. I said that prior to Thursday when the senior team was announced

[CURLY]

The coach isn’t the one making the skill errors on field, but the coach is the one who can set the standards.

Our standards are rock bottom, no selection integrity, players can run around knowing they’re undroppable.

You keep banging on about selection integrity but you offer up no solutions.

We’ve been smashed with injury and suspension. He’s played four first year players and left out long term players along the way.

Seems to me you don’t know what you’re on about.

[Scollop]

Jack Steele might be carrying a niggle. Didn't he have a crook knee a few weeks ago?

I really don't know what's going on because I'm not on the inside, but he looks dispirited at times.

Craig McCrae played Jordan De Goey exclusively in the forward line as he's coming back from a sore groin.

Why doesn't Ross try Steele as a permanent high half forward. Try a different mix in the middle. Do something instead of constantly being negative towards the midfield group

[The G Train Legacy]

But the players were ok last season??

Trouble is, no one was really saying that the players were ok last season. Many including me, always said we had issues with the midfield. I don't recall many saying we had a Top 4 List. Aside from Jack Steele (who is not elite), none of our midfielders are currently good enough.

[Scollop]

ffs… why do people keep denigrating our players and pumping up Ross Lyon and…making excuses for him?! I don’t think he needs your help. He is elite at pointing the finger at everyone else except himself

Steele is a dual All Australian. He didn’t earn the jackets because of his tackling. Ross arrived and from day dot he has been a negative prick on Steele. Audio gate quickly forgotten

Sinclair has the ability to impact as a midfielder. We know he has talent. We know he’s a dual All Australian with elite foot skills.

Marshall, Seb Ross, Owens, Windhager, Hill, Wood, and the others who contribute to the midfield mix have shown elite qualities

Wouldn’t surprise me during the week if someone starts a thread that says; Ross Lyon is the best coach in the AFL. He is a master mind

[saynta]

Put a fork in him, hes done.

Taken a middle team and turned them into a bottom 4 side that cant score. For reference Geelong without a bunch of their best players go to Darwin, get flogged by 60+ points and still manage to kick 100 themselves. At least their supporters have some goals to cheer. We scrap our way to a whoppping average of 72 points a game.

Its rubbish and can't continue.

Yep.

[SAINT-LEE]

But the players were ok last season??

Did ya watch any games after the half way mark of the season?

Once we got back our 'seniors' from injury we began a slow decline to blah. Really after Caminiti was suspended we collapsed.

Senior Coach
Asst Coaches
System
Culture
Players
Injuries

These factors are what every club faces every year.

It flucuates in responsibility for wins / losses
some weeks the senior coach has 30% responsibility for a loss or the players take 30% on and on...

This weeks loss Id rate:

Senior Coach 25%
Asst Coaches 5%
System 20%
Culture 10%
Players 25%
Injuries 15%


Get it all working together and bingo.

[samuraisaint]

I see supporters on social media potting coaches all the time.
Where would the Dogs be without Beveridge?
Where would the Cats be without Scott?
Where would Port be without Hinckley?
I mean, a bit of perspective wouldn't go astray.
This list with the players we have out injured or suspended would be losing by 50-120 points most weeks if Lyon wasn't coaching us.
Like 2021 after we made finals under Ratten, this year is a big step backwards.
I was not happy yesterday and not happy the week before, but I blame that on decision making by the players on the field rather than coaches. I mean, come on, blaming coaches is like blaming umpires. A good tradie never blames their tools.
Ther reserves won by 20 goals this arvo, so let's see what happens at selection this week. I can see at least three unforced selections, potentially four this week.
Clark, Crouch, Higgins in - no brainers there.
Hugo Garcia - BOG, Allison 5 goals.
Campbell looked good from what I saw - playing a bit like RoMa today.

[samuraisaint]

Stop talking s*** this ain’t happening, it’s not the coaches it’s the players and Ross and the club have a plan, if u care to listen to the club of bother to go to training and ask coaches questions you would know where we are

This is a cop-out, we can't just blame the players. The list is measurably better than the one Ratten had, and pretty much everyone here agreed pre-season that the list improved from last year when we made finals. The fact is the coaching is turning good players into bad. Outside of Marshall and probably Windhager every player has gone backwards this year. If no change is made we will be here in a years time saying the players are no good and Wilson and Henry are not up to it after the coach has had a year to corrupt them as well.

I don't doubt they have a plan, they're getting paid a lot to have one, the problem is its a rubbish plan and not working. We need a new one.

We had a huge injury list going into Round 1 and have had four very important players rubbed out suspended. Our year was wrecked by circumstances before it even got a chance to get going.
And this will continue next week because we will have to make at least 3, and probably four unforced changes due to players becoming available again, and the good form of another 3 players in the reserves this afternoon.
This is not tanking, this is rapid player development through exposure and senior experience due to necessity.
Forgetting the midfield for a moment, but how much better would we be if we had Higgins and Butler in the forward line? And we've hardly had either of them all season.

[samuraisaint]

I'm watching the Zebs on channel 7. Hunter Clark is in everything. Not only is he clean, but he directs traffic. He understands the game and he is a leader on the field

Ross Lyon was criticising his midfielders last night. He deflects blame away from himself

What the footy world must realise is that it is 'his midfield'. He chooses the team that represents the club each week

Clark should have played last night. I said that prior to Thursday when the senior team was announced

Agree - he is an absolute ripper. Courageous and skilled. Has to come in this week!

[Sanctorum]

Lack of talent, youth and experience = skill errors.

It's what a hard rebuild looks like.

Why is that so hard to understand leading supporters to want a villain to hate?

We are well short of the talent and experience required to compete, that is all.

It's a rarity for me to be on the same page as my old mate Vortex, but I couldn't agree more with his succinct comments!

I'm also not at all surprised to read the deluge of hate mail on this forum directed at Ross Lyon after yet another poor effort by St Kilda last night. I hope that everyone involved in this shameful pileup feels better after getting all that shyte off their chests!

It says a lot about these supposedly diehard Sainters who surely know that the one mantra most of us hold true is:

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!!"

For what it's worth I did not expect the Saints to beat the Dockers because when you compare the two sides they were chalk and cheese - if Freo had kicked straight the game would have been over at 3/4 time.

Some crucified Lyon for placing blame for the lack of success on the team's midfielders - but does anyone really believe the St Kilda midfield is laden with a reasonable level of talent??

Sure, Rowan Marshall is elite, as is Jack Sinclair. Jack Steele may have been once, but not for a long time and it's been acknowledged that he has been carrying a sore knee this year, which means he's a shadow of his former self. It's all very well to suggest Lyon should have done with Steele what Collingwood did with Jordan de Goey (sore groin) and sat him in the forward 50 to impact on the scoreboard - but the Pies have a star studded midfield, St Kilda don't, so 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' was not an option for Lyon.

On the subject of our skipper, who looks to me like a really nice guy and has been a deserved club champion, fact is that he is not an on-field battle commander like a lot of the top teams possess. Strong on-field leadership is crucial in today's game and obviates the requirement for the coach to send instructions to his players during the game.

Can anyone name a single individual St Kilda player who possesses these skills?? Someone like current assistant coach BJ who in his playing days with St Kilda and Essendon set the standard???

Anyone on our list that can impose himself on a game through sheer physical strength, take the team by the scruff of the neck and will them to victory, like Christian Petracca does??

I have always been an extremely passionate St Kilda fan and remain so even now that I'm in my 80s.

But I have never ever been vocal about the senior coach when the team is not performing as it should.

I'm not what some might suggest an apologist for Ross Lyon. My close mates in Brisbane can attest that I was just as annoyed as anyone about the way he separated from our club in September 2011.

But unlike many, I've pushed that into the past and fully supported the club when he was reappointed by the board in October 2022.

There are clearly some supporters on this forum who are unable to let go of their old animosities and believe it is all Ross Lyon's fault that the team is in a trough.

The stark reality is that Ross Lyion has been given a four year term to be the senior coach and there's not a snow drop's chance in hell that the club will mollify supporters and withdraw their support for the coach. so for those who can't stand the proverbial heat in the kitchen I can only suggest you take a sabbatical - there's always World Cup Darts or Major League Baseball to watch over the winter months.....

Finally, a sad admission, but now that my footy team is in the doldrums and not expected to win, the pressure is off and I find it far more enjoyable to watch the game!

[Jaz]

Lack of talent, youth and experience = skill errors.

It's what a hard rebuild looks like.

Why is that so hard to understand leading supporters to want a villain to hate?

We are well short of the talent and experience required to compete, that is all.

It's a rarity for me to be on the same page as my old mate Vortex, but I couldn't agree more with his succinct comments!

I'm also not at all surprised to read the deluge of hate mail on this forum directed at Ross Lyon after yet another poor effort by St Kilda last night. I hope that everyone involved in this shameful pileup feels better after getting all that shyte off their chests!

It says a lot about these supposedly diehard Sainters who surely know that the one mantra most of us hold true is:

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!!"

For what it's worth I did not expect the Saints to beat the Dockers because when you compare the two sides they were chalk and cheese - if Freo had kicked straight the game would have been over at 3/4 time.

Some crucified Lyon for placing blame for the lack of success on the team's midfielders - but does anyone really believe the St Kilda midfield is laden with a reasonable level of talent??

Sure, Rowan Marshall is elite, as is Jack Sinclair. Jack Steele may have been once, but not for a long time and it's been acknowledged that he has been carrying a sore knee this year, which means he's a shadow of his former self. It's all very well to suggest Lyon should have done with Steele what Collingwood did with Jordan de Goey (sore groin) and sat him in the forward 50 to impact on the scoreboard - but the Pies have a star studded midfield, St Kilda don't, so 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' was not an option for Lyon.

On the subject of our skipper, who looks to me like a really nice guy and has been a deserved club champion, fact is that he is not an on-field battle commander like a lot of the top teams possess. Strong on-field leadership is crucial in today's game and obviates the requirement for the coach to send instructions to his players during the game.

Can anyone name a single individual St Kilda player who possesses these skills?? Someone like current assistant coach BJ who in his playing days with St Kilda and Essendon set the standard???

Anyone on our list that can impose himself on a game through sheer physical strength, take the team by the scruff of the neck and will them to victory, like Christian Petracca does??

I have always been an extremely passionate St Kilda fan and remain so even now that I'm in my 80s.

But I have never ever been vocal about the senior coach when the team is not performing as it should.

I'm not what some might suggest an apologist for Ross Lyon. My close mates in Brisbane can attest that I was just as annoyed as anyone about the way he separated from our club in September 2011.

But unlike many, I've pushed that into the past and fully supported the club when he was reappointed by the board in October 2022.

There are clearly some supporters on this forum who are unable to let go of their old animosities and believe it is all Ross Lyon's fault that the team is in a trough.

The stark reality is that Ross Lyion has been given a four year term to be the senior coach and there's not a snow drop's chance in hell that the club will mollify supporters and withdraw their support for the coach. so for those who can't stand the proverbial heat in the kitchen I can only suggest you take a sabbatical - there's always World Cup Darts or Major League Baseball to watch over the winter months.....

Finally, a sad admission, but now that my footy team is in the doldrums and not expected to win, the pressure is off and I find it far more enjoyable to watch the game!

Nope its not hate mail, its not accepting mediocrity and the nepotism that has led to it. The list did not need a full rebuild, it probably does now because every player has gone backwards.

Do you really enjoy watching us kick 7 goals a game? How many neutrals tune in to watch a saints game at the moment? - I couldn't think of anything worse.