Chicken or the Egg

[Ghost Like]

How interesting that we have become focused on our kids not producing.
Phillipou did not play against Hawthorn, yet he was a problem for our seniors.
Sharman / Caminiti, the same.
No Webster, no worries, until it was...Paton is the better lock down defender.
Will Owens, Hastie, Garcia be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?
Acres / Stanley are two players jettisoned from the club when both have played for clubs, improved by their presence. Acres = two clubs.
We need to know when a player is not valuable, unfortunately the Club and the supporters both struggle with that concept.
Can we keep our youth and remove the dead wood instead of scapegoating the kids?

[B.M]

I think the kids have a bit of talent - especially Wilson

But when there are better more experienced options- I’m not sure why they get a game

They show little glimpses- which is great for first year players

But those little glimpses gonna help us win games


Right now
Is Hugo Garcia or Angus Hastie as good an AFL footballer as Paddy Dow or Zak Jones?

[Scollop]

I like what you’re saying. I totally agree on the youth thing, but you lost me with your line about your criticism of Jimmy Webster and praise for Ben Paton …

Paton is the better lock down defender.

What did Paton do today that you’re giving him credit for?

[Ghost Like]

I think the kids have a bit of talent - especially Wilson

But when there are better more experienced options- I’m not sure why they get a game

They show little glimpses- which is great for first year players

But those little glimpses gonna help us win games


Right now
Is Hugo Garcia or Angus Hastie as good an AFL footballer as Paddy Dow or Zak Jones?

Agree. Zac Jones is a known commodity for me. He's not our present, nor our future.

Dow, it seems, needs more conditioning and I look forward to him becoming a starting mid. Fingers crossed.

[Scollop]

What we have is a group that is very young and they need games against VFL squads

They will learn the game and they can grow and improve their footy together and build connection.

That’s what we need for a successful side. Players that are connected and want success for their team mates

Play them all at Sandringham and bring in them into the team here and there as they gain experience.

Reward them when they play an outstanding game at VFL level

I see a lot of selfish footballers in our senior squad. They play for possessions and they don’t give off when they’re supposed to

[Ghost Like]

I like what you’re saying. I totally agree on the youth thing, but you lost me with your line about your criticism of Jimmy Webster and praise for Ben Paton …

Paton is the better lock down defender.

What did Paton do today that you’re giving him credit for?

He did not have a goal kicked on him. He was not beaten out the back. He carries out the job he's given and is versatile. I believe Jimmy has copped credit for the work Ben has done. Only my opinion though Scollop.

[Scollop]

I like what you’re saying. I totally agree on the youth thing, but you lost me with your line about your criticism of Jimmy Webster and praise for Ben Paton …

Paton is the better lock down defender.

What did Paton do today that you’re giving him credit for?

He did not have a goal kicked on him. He was not beaten out the back. He carries out the job he's given and is versatile. I believe Jimmy has copped credit for the work Ben has done. Only my opinion though Scollop.

Again, you’re criticising Webster unfairly. Not balanced.

Webster wasn’t poor today. He worked just as hard as any of our defenders.

[Ghost Like]

I like what you’re saying. I totally agree on the youth thing, but you lost me with your line about your criticism of Jimmy Webster and praise for Ben Paton …

Paton is the better lock down defender.

What did Paton do today that you’re giving him credit for?

He did not have a goal kicked on him. He was not beaten out the back. He carries out the job he's given and is versatile. I believe Jimmy has copped credit for the work Ben has done. Only my opinion though Scollop.

Again, you’re criticising Webster unfairly. Not balanced.

Webster wasn’t poor today. He worked just as hard as any of our defenders.

Maybe Scollop but isn't saying someone "worked just as hard" a cop out statement to ensure every prrson (defender) played exactly the same. I don't think so. Wilkie & Howard were both good today. NWM, Stocker & Webster had some poor moments. Moments I don't think Paton has, as a rule.

[Scollop]

I like what you’re saying. I totally agree on the youth thing, but you lost me with your line about your criticism of Jimmy Webster and praise for Ben Paton …

Paton is the better lock down defender.

What did Paton do today that you’re giving him credit for?

He did not have a goal kicked on him. He was not beaten out the back. He carries out the job he's given and is versatile. I believe Jimmy has copped credit for the work Ben has done. Only my opinion though Scollop.

Again, you’re criticising Webster unfairly. Not balanced.

Webster wasn’t poor today. He worked just as hard as any of our defenders.

Maybe Scollop but isn't saying someone "worked just as hard" a cop out statement to ensure every prrson (defender) played exactly the same. I don't think so. Wilkie & Howard were both good today. NWM, Stocker & Webster had some poor moments. Moments I don't think Paton has, as a rule.

Bulldust. I know Webster gave off a bad handball in the dying seconds of the game. Webster wasn’t perfect but who is? Wilkie and NWM dropped chest marks. King went for a miraculous Jackie Chan kick in mid air instead of collecting the ball and dishing it off to a team mate and what about Marshall…love his endeavour and will probably give him votes like a few others on the forum…but

Rowan did some dumb things today. Especially the late bump on a Hawks player on the wing which gave them control of the footy and wasted about a minute off the clock.

[Ghost Like]

You're a Webster fan Scollop, good on you. I'm not. I was not referring to his handball fail but thanks for highlighting it. He is too loose. Whilst he's a hard player, I think he's a dumb player in terms of disposal and discipline. You think differently.

[Scollop]

Look, I just don’t agree with people blaming one player or 2-3 players for losses. I also don’t agree on the coach solely taking the blame. It’s a team game. You wear the losses the same as when you celebrate the victories…as a team

The sooner they start doing that, the better our culture and the sooner we can start seeing them connect and enjoy their footy and get more wins on the board

I like your thread, but don’t agree we need to start looking for scapegoats…no matter their age

[Ghost Like]

Fair call Scollop, I just think that maybe we need to get a little personal with blame, particularly players, players of age. Coaches have been scapegoated since 66 whilst individuals have been celebrated. It's a balancing act we are yet to perfect.

[saintbob]

How interesting that we have become focused on our kids not producing.
Phillipou did not play against Hawthorn, yet he was a problem for our seniors.
Sharman / Caminiti, the same.
No Webster, no worries, until it was...Paton is the better lock down defender.
Will Owens, Hastie, Garcia be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?
Acres / Stanley are two players jettisoned from the club when both have played for clubs, improved by their presence. Acres = two clubs.
We need to know when a player is not valuable, unfortunately the Club and the supporters both struggle with that concept.
Can we keep our youth and remove the dead wood instead of scapegoating the kids?

Paton is putrid and the fact he’s stillour list is embarrassing,, if you’re talking about dead wood this bloke is a prime example.

[saintbob]

How interesting that we have become focused on our kids not producing.
Phillipou did not play against Hawthorn, yet he was a problem for our seniors.
Sharman / Caminiti, the same.
No Webster, no worries, until it was...Paton is the better lock down defender.
Will Owens, Hastie, Garcia be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?
Acres / Stanley are two players jettisoned from the club when both have played for clubs, improved by their presence. Acres = two clubs.
We need to know when a player is not valuable, unfortunately the Club and the supporters both struggle with that concept.
Can we keep our youth and remove the dead wood instead of scapegoating the kids?

Paton is putrid and the fact he’s still on our list is embarrassing,, if you’re talking about dead wood this bloke is a prime example.

[Ghost Like]

How interesting that we have become focused on our kids not producing.
Phillipou did not play against Hawthorn, yet he was a problem for our seniors.
Sharman / Caminiti, the same.
No Webster, no worries, until it was...Paton is the better lock down defender.
Will Owens, Hastie, Garcia be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?
Acres / Stanley are two players jettisoned from the club when both have played for clubs, improved by their presence. Acres = two clubs.
We need to know when a player is not valuable, unfortunately the Club and the supporters both struggle with that concept.
Can we keep our youth and remove the dead wood instead of scapegoating the kids?

Paton is putrid and the fact he’s still on our list is embarrassing,, if you’re talking about dead wood this bloke is a prime example.

Thanks saintbob, one more sip might help but the pain will still be there. What did Paton do wrong today? Is he really your best example of what is wrong with our list?

[takeaway]

You're a Webster fan Scollop, good on you. I'm not. I was not referring to his handball fail but thanks for highlighting it. He is too loose. Whilst he's a hard player, I think he's a dumb player in terms of disposal and discipline. You think differently.

Paton over Webster? Can't agree there, much prefer Jimmy. For once I agree with Scollop.

[Yorkeys]

The players put in for Ross or not as mood takes them; or
Ross churns the list to get players that will put in and play smart each week.
Selection this week might tell which scenario is at play.
Dogs - an aberration;
Hawks - bog standard rubbish.
Surely we can regroup and lose to Freo by under 2 goals. Re-establish the brand.

[asiu]

i must see things slightly differently than most

24 has been a great year


both the chicken 'n the egg , whilst only a glint in tank the roosters eye
will be well served by this season

are we not meeting important objectives ?

games into kids
draft picks worthy of our close losses

i can't see the problem

[asiu]

(besides kicking it between the big sticks)

[cwrcyn]

Paton.

The positive:

Hard working lock down small defender who stops his opponents scoring. Has done excellent jobs on players like Charlie Cameron and Toby Greene

The negative

Can't decide what to do with the ball once he has it in his hands. Takes a mark and then just freezes while team mates run free into space, ignoring easy options that other players would take in the blink of an eye Too afraid to take the kick, he then bombs long to a contest. No creative or proactive side to his game.

[saintbob]

How interesting that we have become focused on our kids not producing.
Phillipou did not play against Hawthorn, yet he was a problem for our seniors.
Sharman / Caminiti, the same.
No Webster, no worries, until it was...Paton is the better lock down defender.
Will Owens, Hastie, Garcia be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?
Acres / Stanley are two players jettisoned from the club when both have played for clubs, improved by their presence. Acres = two clubs.
We need to know when a player is not valuable, unfortunately the Club and the supporters both struggle with that concept.
Can we keep our youth and remove the dead wood instead of scapegoating the kids?

Paton is putrid and the fact he’s still on our list is embarrassing,, if you’re talking about dead wood this bloke is a prime example.

Thanks saintbob, one more sip might help but the pain will still be there. What did Paton do wrong today? Is he really your best example of what is wrong with our list?

What does he do right he's like a dear in the headlights @ AFL level, and to say he's a better lock down defender than Jimmy is absurd.

[Scollop]

Will Owens be the next to be scapegoated for our failure to step up and win games we should win?

You mentioned another couple of youngsters (our 18 yr olds) but let's just focus on Michito

Owens is thrown around everywhere and wasted, instead of just playing as a pure mid. Let him settle in a position where he becomes our Dusty. He's capable

Instead of 3 defensive minded tagger/midfielders lining up at centre bounce, how about 1 tagger and 2 ball hunters?

Dow should have played in my opinion against the Hawks. Owens should get more time in the middle.

Oh...and speaking of throwing players around and not letting them settle. They've finally bitten the bullet on Sinclair (which I think he's ready) and he's being played as a pure mid. It takes time for the midfield group to bed down changes and to get used to passing the footy to Owens or Sinclair (who weren't usually at these stoppages).

Several times in the game against the Hawks our mids, including RoMa, failed to spot up Sincs who made good space and was free to receive but they did dumb kicks that went straight to Hawthorn players inside 50.

Teflon was selling us some cockamaymie story about our poor conversion and our dominance with i50's ....As if we had a tonne more scoring shots than them.

3 quarter time score was
8.6 Hawthorn
5.9 St Kilda

That's 14 scoring shots each. We were lucky they weren't 12.2