In Garcia, Windhager Out Hastie Jones

[skeptic]

I’m in the middle ground here with subs. I don’t mind players debuting as subs but if you’re going to give them a crack, give them a crack.
Collard came on for the last quarter v Geelong. And then got replaced by Butler who has done SFA since returning from injury. Seems like he’s building his fitness in the seniors. I hate that. Collard should have had a go.

Same deal with Hastie. He’s played like 1.5 quarters across two games. Give him a half and sub him off if he’s floundering. I don’t get what we’re gaining here.

You have:
Jones
Butler
Byrnes

+ Caminati, Coops, Membrey and Bonner

All have really struggled at times or had a bad game… and none of the sub have managed a quarter yet.

Don’t like it

[Otiman]

You're better off with a full game at VFL than 5 minutes of an AFL one.

[MC Gusto]

tony indicated one was forced. zaccy been a naughty boy?

[spert]

I thought Butler just wasn't in the play enough last week, and Jones probably did better. Caminiti will probably need to have a better game, but I think Lyon is probably seeing him as a backup to Roma

[older saint]

I think Sharman the sub, our forward line was too top heavy last week , Sharman ended up on the wing at times, but doesn't have the tank of Mason Wood yet.
Not surprised Jones dropped , butchered it a bit last week and a couple really poor decisions.

Hastie needed a game.
yes not ideal to debut as the sub but by the same token that is what they signed up for and like Melbourne last night sub was activated 5 min in.
I remember Frankie Peckett debut v Hawthorn at Moorabin , came on in the last qtr as back then once you were off didnt often come back - great game we actually won !

[B.M]

I though Zac was ok last week

Too the game on

Was hard at the ball

[meher baba]

I though Zac was ok last week

Too the game on

Was hard at the ball

As I already posted on another thread, so did I. He stood his ground and opposing mids thought twice before running in his direction. He indirectly helped us win the clearances.

But he certainly made a lot of mistakes. Many fans, especially those mainly watching the game on TV, become preoccupied with mistakes because they are measurable and highly visible.

But there’s a lot more to properly judging a player’s performance than looking at their stats. Especially the way RTB-coached teams play.

But, for whatever reason, Jones won’t be out there tomorrow. Hopefully Windy will deliver the same good stuff and more besides, with fewer errors.

[Brunswicksainter]

Jones had one of the worst body language first quarters I've seen against the Tigers. Looked completely disinterested, didn't want to tackle, didn't want to go get the ball. If this is a pull your head in or get out type omitted I'm all for it. Too long we've carried passengers on the team, and dropping more experienced guys should send a message.

If it's injury or something in his personal life then of course I hope he can get it together and come back at his best.

Look forward to seeing Garcia - hopefully not another one we give the debut sub to.

Spot on saw this as well. I think there’s every chance his career is over at this point though.

[B.M]

Line is through him

He is the new Luke Ball/Jack Billings

90% of players love Ross Lyon as coach
10% hate him

I can guess where Zak Jones sits

I know an ex player (who is still playing) who can’t stand him and thinks he’s a wanker
But the whole Riewoldt and that group love him.

[Scollop]

It's not really fair on young players if they continually get made sub. They're virtually on stand by and sacrifice their individual needs for the needs of the team.

We made Jack Bytel the sub 4 times early last year. It messes with these guys form.

Jack Steele was out with a broken collarbone and instead of Bytel getting a look in, we preferred an out of form Brad Crouch. I hate short term thinking like this. Look where Crouch is now.

They earn the right to play but they don't get enough minutes...and some of these guys lose their momentum when they go back to the magoos

Bytel never got a chance to show what he was capable of. He's in good form in the VFL for Collingwood at the moment. Will be good for him if he earns a spot in the seniors at some stage

You really don't let go, do you, despite overwhelming evidence. Another anti Crouch pro Bytel post. Get over it, Bytel plays for Collingwood now, well actually, Collingwood VFL. Take down your Bytel poster. Crouch is a level above Bytel. Nothing against Bytel though, I hope he does get a go for Collingwood, but not holding my breath.

So according to you Saints should have preferred Bytel over Crouch, early last year, especially because Steele was out with a broken collarbone. Crouch was out of form? What? Crouch got brownlow votes in the first 2 games, and when Steele was out (R3-5), Crouch picked up brownlow votes in 2 of those 3 games. Did you see those games?

While on the subject of wall posters, have you taken down your Ben Long poster yet? He's now Gold Coast, actually Gold Coast VFL.

Get with it Scollop.

So what you're really saying is...we sure know how to stuff up the development of talented youngsters

Collard and Hastie and now Garcia will get next to zero benefit long term from being the sub multiple times. That's all

Crouch had a form slump last year prior to the bye. I might have messed up the exact weeks and whether it coincided with Steeles injury.

Look at facts. Crouch played poorly when it mattered most in the Elimination Final

I'd rather have Bytel on the list than Crouch. I think Bytel has upside. You obviously think otherwise

[saynta]

It's not really fair on young players if they continually get made sub. They're virtually on stand by and sacrifice their individual needs for the needs of the team.

We made Jack Bytel the sub 4 times early last year. It messes with these guys form.

Jack Steele was out with a broken collarbone and instead of Bytel getting a look in, we preferred an out of form Brad Crouch. I hate short term thinking like this. Look where Crouch is now.

They earn the right to play but they don't get enough minutes...and some of these guys lose their momentum when they go back to the magoos

Bytel never got a chance to show what he was capable of. He's in good form in the VFL for Collingwood at the moment. Will be good for him if he earns a spot in the seniors at some stage

You really don't let go, do you, despite overwhelming evidence. Another anti Crouch pro Bytel post. Get over it, Bytel plays for Collingwood now, well actually, Collingwood VFL. Take down your Bytel poster. Crouch is a level above Bytel. Nothing against Bytel though, I hope he does get a go for Collingwood, but not holding my breath.

So according to you Saints should have preferred Bytel over Crouch, early last year, especially because Steele was out with a broken collarbone. Crouch was out of form? What? Crouch got brownlow votes in the first 2 games, and when Steele was out (R3-5), Crouch picked up brownlow votes in 2 of those 3 games. Did you see those games?

While on the subject of wall posters, have you taken down your Ben Long poster yet? He's now Gold Coast, actually Gold Coast VFL.

Get with it Scollop.

So what you're really saying is...we sure know how to stuff up the development of talented youngsters

Collard and Hastie and now Garcia will get next to zero benefit long term from being the sub multiple times. That's all

Crouch had a form slump last year prior to the bye. I might have messed up the exact weeks and whether it coincided with Steeles injury.

Look at facts. Crouch played poorly when it mattered most in the Elimination Final

I'd rather have Bytel on the list than Crouch. I think Bytel has upside. You obviously think otherwise

Me too mate, me too.

[takeaway]

It's not really fair on young players if they continually get made sub. They're virtually on stand by and sacrifice their individual needs for the needs of the team.

We made Jack Bytel the sub 4 times early last year. It messes with these guys form.

Jack Steele was out with a broken collarbone and instead of Bytel getting a look in, we preferred an out of form Brad Crouch. I hate short term thinking like this. Look where Crouch is now.

They earn the right to play but they don't get enough minutes...and some of these guys lose their momentum when they go back to the magoos

Bytel never got a chance to show what he was capable of. He's in good form in the VFL for Collingwood at the moment. Will be good for him if he earns a spot in the seniors at some stage

You really don't let go, do you, despite overwhelming evidence. Another anti Crouch pro Bytel post. Get over it, Bytel plays for Collingwood now, well actually, Collingwood VFL. Take down your Bytel poster. Crouch is a level above Bytel. Nothing against Bytel though, I hope he does get a go for Collingwood, but not holding my breath.

So according to you Saints should have preferred Bytel over Crouch, early last year, especially because Steele was out with a broken collarbone. Crouch was out of form? What? Crouch got brownlow votes in the first 2 games, and when Steele was out (R3-5), Crouch picked up brownlow votes in 2 of those 3 games. Did you see those games?

While on the subject of wall posters, have you taken down your Ben Long poster yet? He's now Gold Coast, actually Gold Coast VFL.

Get with it Scollop.

So what you're really saying is...we sure know how to stuff up the development of talented youngsters

Collard and Hastie and now Garcia will get next to zero benefit long term from being the sub multiple times. That's all

Crouch had a form slump last year prior to the bye. I might have messed up the exact weeks and whether it coincided with Steeles injury.

Look at facts. Crouch played poorly when it mattered most in the Elimination Final

I'd rather have Bytel on the list than Crouch. I think Bytel has upside. You obviously think otherwise

Yes, I do prefer Crouch over Bytel, as do the St Kilda brains trust. Pies certainly haven't rushed him into their team.

Whether Saints are "stuffing up development of talented youngsters" by making them sub is subjective. I don't think it affects them, quite a few teams this year have brought players in for their first game as the sub, multiple times I don't think is an issue, good way to get them in as part of the team. If they are good enough, they will gain a permanent spot. Bytel, as far as the Saints were concerned, was not good enough.

[skeptic]

The argument here is a bit in the middle here for me.

I think it’s reasonable that Bytel could have had more opportunity in the middle and to play full games. I’m that sense, yeah I reckon development was stifled but as suggested… he obviously wasn’t rated internally amongst the decision makers.

That said… the Crouch v Bytel is a bizarre comparison. No way you could play him ahead of Brad Crouch - is streets ahead. Bytel wasn’t competing with Crouch… wasn’t close to competing with him.
He should have however… had more opportunity against some of the other fringe players

[SaintPav]

Debuting new players as a sub is beginning to look like a sham.

[Teflon]

Fine to debut new players as sub - lots of sides do it and facts are last week for Hastie it was sub or bye at Sandy?
Jones had 14 touches , 3 tackles
Is a mature 29 yo mid - not a kid
He’s either
1. Being rested ahead of 5 day break for Dogs (he took a heavy hit late) Or
2. He’s simply not doing enough
If our midfield is to improve we got to see who will be the next Steele ..it ain’t Jones

[B.M]

Yep

It’s worked a treat so far

[spert]

It's not really fair on young players if they continually get made sub. They're virtually on stand by and sacrifice their individual needs for the needs of the team.

We made Jack Bytel the sub 4 times early last year. It messes with these guys form.

Jack Steele was out with a broken collarbone and instead of Bytel getting a look in, we preferred an out of form Brad Crouch. I hate short term thinking like this. Look where Crouch is now.

They earn the right to play but they don't get enough minutes...and some of these guys lose their momentum when they go back to the magoos

Bytel never got a chance to show what he was capable of. He's in good form in the VFL for Collingwood at the moment. Will be good for him if he earns a spot in the seniors at some stage

You really don't let go, do you, despite overwhelming evidence. Another anti Crouch pro Bytel post. Get over it, Bytel plays for Collingwood now, well actually, Collingwood VFL. Take down your Bytel poster. Crouch is a level above Bytel. Nothing against Bytel though, I hope he does get a go for Collingwood, but not holding my breath.

So according to you Saints should have preferred Bytel over Crouch, early last year, especially because Steele was out with a broken collarbone. Crouch was out of form? What? Crouch got brownlow votes in the first 2 games, and when Steele was out (R3-5), Crouch picked up brownlow votes in 2 of those 3 games. Did you see those games?

While on the subject of wall posters, have you taken down your Ben Long poster yet? He's now Gold Coast, actually Gold Coast VFL.

Get with it Scollop.

So what you're really saying is...we sure know how to stuff up the development of talented youngsters

Collard and Hastie and now Garcia will get next to zero benefit long term from being the sub multiple times. That's all

Crouch had a form slump last year prior to the bye. I might have messed up the exact weeks and whether it coincided with Steeles injury.

Look at facts. Crouch played poorly when it mattered most in the Elimination Final

I'd rather have Bytel on the list than Crouch. I think Bytel has upside. You obviously think otherwise

I wanted Bytel to step up and be a senior midfielder, but the more I watched, the more I thought he fell into that crack between very good at VFL level, but just lacking a bit at AFL level- had his chances but didn't get enough of the ball basically, and that's one of our midfield issues.

[bobmurray]

Garcia named as the sub, another debut as a benchwarming sub.

https://www.afl.com.au/matches/team-lineups?GameWeeks=5

[walkingslug]

Rather have Byrnes as sub and Garcia to start

[B.M]

Despicable

[saintbob]

Debuting new players as a sub is beginning to look like a sham.

It’s f****** disgraceful, unless there’s an injury the poor kids don’t get a look in until the last 5mins of the game.

The AFL need to do away with it, and just make it 5 on the bench.