How do we fix the forward line?

[skeptic]

Last time I can remember it being consistently functioning effectively and looking dangerous… the line up was so,etching to the effect of:

Phillipou, Caminati, Gresh
Higgins, Cordy, Butler

Then as some of those players pushed up the ground, Owens and Wood would drop in

Here’s what I remember of that time. The forward line was open and reliant on runners.

All three of Pou, Caminati and Cordy were equal. None had top status as the go to man… best option at the time, got the lead honoured

All the key forwards led… the crushers swooped at their feet

The midfielders couldn’t afford to bomb so kicks were considered and measured.

It’s weird now… we don’t see a lot of leading. Feels like a lot more goals need to come from grabs and set shots.
King is the guy… go long to the hot spot… often pass doesn’t favour the markers. Easy to criticise King seem to run out a great deal. He’s lethal on the lead and in space because his reach is a killer to stop.
Compare him to Riewoldt… physically there is nothing that Roo has in terms of physique that makes him a tougher match up… but Nick consistently put himself in the position where the ball was kicked in front of him where he could run and jump at it. Hands stretched out above his head was his sweet spot. Though he could take a pack mark… those were his remarkable plays not the bread and butter.

Feels like we’re tall but not really marking threats… and very poor forward pressure. Coops and Caminati seem a poor combination. Membrey a bit all over the shop.

Best forward for a while seems to be Higgins. Almost always turns up with his x-factor being whether he brings his kicking shoes.

Thoughts

[meher baba]

As per my suggestion on another thread. I would suggest swapping over Banger and Boris in their roles as assistant coaches. I have enormous faith in Boris's ability to solve the puzzle of how all the forwards should position themselves.

I think the answer is probably first to settle on three talls: I would suggest King, Caminiti and Membrey, although (once Howard comes back) King, Cordy and Membrey should also be considered. And then to drill them all intensively as to how to work together cooperatively: just as Boris has done so well with Wilkie, Battle, Howard/Cordy and Webster (and I saw signs on Sunday that he's slowly getting there with Bonner as well).

We also need to appoint a general to marshall all of the forwards into the right positions. I'm not sure who: the coaches would have a better idea.

[Trixilver]

Fix the midfield. A good midfield can make an average forward line look fantastic.

[SinCitySainter]

Get a coach who wants to score goals and not just restrict the opposition scoring might be a start.

[TheGreatZacsby]

Some ideas

(1) Get a goal kicking coach. Every player needs a set shot routine. PERIOD. I think we had one under Ratts and the last I’ve heard is we don’t now.

(2) Play two big talls, one big power forward. One tall (Max King) sits deep and finishes the work - like a Charlie Curnow, Tom Hawkins etc. 2nd tall (Rowan Marshall) plays up the ground and crashes packs and has a running capability - Mackay / Jeremy Cameron. Power forward (Tim Membrey, Sharman, Hayes) who can snipe from anywhere - Bailey Fritsch, Oliver Henry, Ugle-Hagans. That’s how all the top 5 scoring clubs do it. COPY them!

(3) That’s 3 spots left. You play two goal sneaks. One that has good roving potential like Milnes / Toby Greenes etc and the other a pressure running forward so when there is turnover there’s miss matches. Jack Higgins is really good at that but he’s not really a pressure forward.

(4) No underdone players. If you are fit at 100% you play. Sorry Butler I’m looking at you. I’d rather see a Lance Collard play and not kick a goal but is getting experience than an underdone Butler who doesn’t kick a goal because we are chasing “completeness”. Play who is for an available.

(5) Leaves 1 spot left. This is where the magic happens. You drop a resting goal kicking power mid here who can turn games on its head. This is where we can’t get it right. Should be Phillipou and Owens on constant rotation with each other. Melbourne do it with Petracca and Picket. Richmond do it with Dusty and Shai Bolton. Swans do it with Heeny and Haywood. You rarely see these players start together in a centre bounce. It makes people fear your players and changes their line up to accomodate ours. Reason why Owens isn’t having a good year is because the opposition play a power defender on him and shuts down his game. If you had rotations in the midfield you lose tags in traffic as what Richmond did with us in Dusty and Shai.

[Yorkeys]

I think those pesky opposition defenders might have something to do with it.

[The Fireman]

Fix the midfield. A good midfield can make an average forward line look fantastic.

+1

[1971]

Hey Great Zacsby. I just wanted to point out we currently do have a goal kicking coach. Sometimes though players may have a tendency to drop into old habits when they cross the line. Not deliberate just human nature.

[Otiman]

Structures and delivery.

We need some structures that allow us to take advantage of our talls going forward. We have an abundance of aerial players who can take contested marks.

Split King, Caminiti, and Membrey into three fully separate hot spots. Have Owens and Sharman drifting across packs, and the mids/smalls front and centre.

That's just one structure. You could have another where all are at the top of the goalsquare and create specific space for leading out to.

At the moment and for the last few years it's still seemed all "bomb and hope". It suggests a change of coaching personnel is required.

[spert]

A combination of things. Midfield is a problem sure, but I think Lyon has the forward half in a defensive mindset, and seem more intent on jostling one on one or blocking the backs than making space and leading hard. Ball carriers coming through the middle, need targets, and our forwards just play behind too much, and when you don't see a teammate, you kick it to a contest generally. The midfield need to get on the scoreboard a whole lot more too.

[TheGreatZacsby]

Hey Great Zacsby. I just wanted to point out we currently do have a goal kicking coach. Sometimes though players may have a tendency to drop into old habits when they cross the line. Not deliberate just human nature.

Awesome! I couldn’t recall if we had one or not. Thanks for the update.

[Devilhead]

See link below that reels off some interesting 2024 stats

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats ... ?year=2024

Currently the AFL average this year for shots on Goal is 24.8 and we sit in equal 8th position with 25 average (note - these shots on goal won't necessarily register a score)

Downside is we are 3rd last for accuracy

We are no 1 in defensive pressure acts

[Teflon]

Fix the midfield. A good midfield can make an average forward line look fantastic.

Yep
Amazing how good forward line when ball comes in quick n direct …..how often do we see Roze type break aways into our fwd 50 from our midfield???? I mean honestly???
Never
Slow build ups that allow defenders to get back en masse do nothing for our forwards…
Sure, goal kicking shytes me ….but look further up field to fix this
1 positive from weekend….Tigers defence Sat deep…we bombed they pick us off
After HT (good coaching) our mids/fwd entries start to look for that chip kick just inside the 50 ….Owens did it beautifully to Marshall ….we goal …smart adjustments like that help our forwards

[shrodes]

The midfield need to get on the scoreboard a whole lot more too.

Rozee 3.2 vs Bombers. That's the type of thing that lifts the whole team and wins you games.

At times I have to wonder if our mids have been instructed not to have a ping at goals and instead bomb to hotspots. Maybe to prevent quick transition back up the field if they miss? Or maybe we're just determined to back our talls in.

[Scollop]

1 positive from weekend….Tigers defence Sat deep…we bombed they pick us off
After HT (good coaching) our mids/fwd entries start to look for that chip kick just inside the 50 ….Owens did it beautifully to Marshall ….we goal …smart adjustments like that help our forwards

That is not what happened. Your mind is playing tricks on you. Watch the third quarter again.
What you're describing with Marshall kicking that set shot goal happened in the last quarter. Which incidently...was controlled by Richmond
Richmond had 18 inside 50's in the last quarter to the Saints only 9.

Here's the blow by blow of what happened after half time.........................................................

We had 9 x inside 50's in the first five minutes of the 3rd quarter before we kicked a major...and I didn't see a chip kick just inside the 50. Our first goal in the 3rd wasn't from a set shot either. It was a crumb that Membrey kicked on his left (not something you'd normally bank on).

Our strategy seems to be based on bombing it in and hoping for the best. Incidental goals or someone like King or Caminiti taking a pack mark.

Every time they were doing it in the 3rd quarter, I thought they'd learnt their lesson...but no!! They just kept bombing it in long to the congested hotspot 20-30m in front of goal.

Straight after our first goal by Membrey, we got the centre clearance with Steele getting a handball out to Seb who was on the run.

What does Sebby do? Bombs it long, to the hotspot!!

After Butler was paid a free deep in our forward pocket for a dangerous tackle from Vlastuin and Wilson played on and kicked a goal, we had about 4 more inside 50s within the next 3-4 minutes.

Again...it was a long bomb from Batts ( marked by Nank) a long bomb from Stocker ( marked by Nank ) and another bloody long bomb from Sincs...after our last goal we got a centre clearance and guess what Zak Jones does...yep...bomb it to the hotspot!!

We doominated the 3rd with 22 x i50's to them only 9...BUT it was all incidental and unplanned goals.

It seems our forwards don't lead early enough or high enough up the ground. Don't they know how to lead?

Are they told not to lead? Have they forgotten how to lead?

At times I have to wonder if our mids have been instructed not to have a ping at goals and instead bomb to hotspots. Maybe to prevent quick transition back up the field if they miss? Or maybe we're just determined to back our talls in.

[bigcarl]

Fix the midfield. A good midfield can make an average forward line look fantastic.

That’s got to be the priority.

The other thing is, do we have anyone with natural goal-sense up forward? Don’t think we have a Milne or Gehrig … someone who just knows where they are instinctively.

Higgins, for example, loves a goal, but is just an average to poor shot.

[Scollop]

The whole premise of this thread....And countless similar threads dating back to Richo days, is because or forward entries are crap

If the instruction is bomb it long and Max King will crash packs so that we get an opportunity to score...I can understand why Max King doesn't look so happy at times.

It looked messy. It looked ugly and it's not the sort of straytegy that will work with better teams and seasoned defenders

[Vortex]

Talent is how you fix anything, talent is everything, it makes the coach, it wins you premierships.

Max King living up to his DP4 potential is how we start with fixing the forward, and the comment about a midfield being the answer, well partly it is but again it’s talent in the midfield we are missing also. Conversely a talented forward line will make an ordinary midfield look good by making the most of every opportunity and entry.

Max Kings shocking shanks very early on in the game would have been horrendously deflating for our young and inexperienced midfield who were working incredibly hard for their limited entry’s only for Max butcher the set shot.

Max needs start living up to his potential this year.

Talent talent talent.

[Saint 58]

King to CHF
More space to move around, less congestion, harder to be double/triple teamed
or
Have King lead further out, he can kick 60m
Just fxxxing lead, if someone is in your way knock them over, bump into them
If it’s a block then it’s a free kick

[The Fireman]

All we need is talent

This forum is full of valuable information and well thought out solutions to all our problems

[older saint]

As mentioned forwards look good when mids get control, time and space.
Looked good V Collingwood as controlled the midfield.

Goal kicking is an obvious issue.

I thought we were too tall with both Caminiti and Sharman on the weekend - can't see how both fit with Membrey and King.
Butler would want to lift his game i would think also

[repta]

I know Butler has only just come back in. However I don like both Higgins and Butler playing in the same team. Or same role. Individually they do better than together.
I know Butler has been playing higher more as a lockdown forward. Maybe that will work better.

King makes us one dimensional. It is a balance they need to get right.

King also needs a goal kicking coach (the ball is spinning, swirling, rolling and twirling right up to the time he drops it sideways to his foot as his hands are misaligned). The Under 12's would be running laps if they tried that in a game.

Membrey also seems a bit off. He has been ok and good in patches. However he just doesnt appear to bring his dynamic and dependable game.

[Otiman]

Our small forwards need to be opportunistic crumbers, front and centre. Not overhead lead-out types.

Higgins has gone a long way towards this so far.

Butler is still stuck in defensive forward mode and needs an attacking string to his bow.

[ace]

Separation
One leads to the flank 50 on the side from where the ball is coming - he leads toward the ball
Another leads straight down the ground toward 50 to receive a centring ball
One stays home.

The aim is to split up the defenders.
So they can block our forwards
If one defender sags off then punish him by targeting his forward.
It does matter if King goes goal-less so long as the forwards collectively kick a winning score.

[Vortex]

King makes us one dimensional. It is a balance they need to get right.

King also needs a goal kicking coach (the ball is spinning, swirling, rolling and twirling right up to the time he drops it sideways to his foot as his hands are misaligned). The Under 12's would be running laps if they tried that in a game.

A lot riding on whether King can reach his potential as a DP4 marquee forward, if you want a premiership team you need one or two at a minimum so this list can't afford another bust like Paddy as the whole team is built around these types. He has to start winning games for us.