Crab watch

[Teflon]

I def preferred Henry’s game to Billings’

Spot on
Any nuff nuff trying to use stats to justify Billing’s over Henry is delusional
For a start - Henry IMPACTS the game
Jack….not so much
Needs a top 4 side to show up on field

[Scollop]

Henry is the cake

Billings is the marshmallow and 'cream'

[skeptic]

Are you saying Billings has never played a good game against good opposition?

Not sure I agree with that?

I just look at his body of work over 160 games as a HF/wing
And his numbers stack up

It’s a bit like the false narrative that he is soft

Asking yourself your own questions to make yourself look smart is a low percentage move.

Where did I say that?

Let’s go tit for tat…

Are you saying that Billings consistently produces best on ground performances in losing efforts or big games/quality opposition?

Saints vs Bulldogs final 2020
Billings - 7 kicks, 6 handballs, 3 tackles - 0.1 - hardly elite

Saints vs Richmond final 2020
Billings - 11 kicks, 5 handballs, 3 tackles - 0.1. - hardly elite

Cant say I agree with that.

[CQ SAINT]

Didn’t say he was BOG

Said he was near bog - he had a great game at HF 23 and 5t and a goal with a 73% DE

They are elite numbers across HF

Got in the coaches votes

BTW
6 times he’s been voted Best On
Has received 32 Brownlow votes as a HFF

Not bad for a VFL player

He did play a VFL game a few years back - I was there
He had a lazy 54 possessions playing as an inside mid

Which game was that?

[meher baba]

This is bizarre. Why does it have to be about a direct comparison between Billings and Henry? Last time I looked there are 23 guys selected each week. Henry has looked excellent for us since arriving: a better player than Billings for sure. And I reckon probably a better player than Sharman, Higgins, Phillipou, Ross, Byrnes and a bunch of others.

But we certainly didn’t have to get rid of Billings to recruit Henry, let alone pay half his salary for the Demons.

Anyway, if we’re doing direct comparisons, one of the main complaints from posters about Billings was that he was out injured too often.

So, if any of you had to put $100 on which of Billings and Henry will play the most AFL games in 2024, who would you pick?

[CQ SAINT]

Billings had opportunities at end of last season and should have been primed, for an experienced player, to wind up and play finals
Round 17 re-injured
Round 19 poor
Round 20 poor.

Billings was clearly hampered by injury but it's not like he wasn't given a chance.
In round 20 on the 30th of July we easily accounted for Hawthorn, Billings was well under par and was injured. He wasn't dropped and didn't play VFL again u til 3 weeks later and got 24p 14k 10h. Big deal.

Billings was playing through injury for most of his last 50 games. Decent footballer but very overrated throughout his career.

If I was to draw a comparison in impact, Jack Newnes, who can be rated as an average footballer and played most of his career alongside Billings would be my choice.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=C&type=A

The reason is both were senior, top 10 players (gifted form opportunities when they were under par) at the club at a time when we had no great leadership. Both were very good athletes, played some outstanding games and they were both able to rack up linking stats, that more often than not caused more confusion and turn over than anything else.
My opinion is that they were good runners who could get into position to impact and didn't do it often enough.
The jury is still out on Billings, as he has a chance, but those who want to rewrite his history at St.Kilda as an argument to say we shouldn't have got rid of him, should look at his best games and count the number of handballs.
When he struggled he was useless, merely a link handballer with dinky little short passes to players who run to low % holes the opposition leave open.
When he was on fire he was deadly by foot but for a forward was a s*** kick at goal.

He proved to be spineless in the end and shot out the back door like a bad smell.
His last effort was great. 20k 15m 3h 5t. Run that through his career stats year by year and tell me he wasn't gifted half his career at St.Kilda.
Melbourne have the mids to carry him. We didn't. Melbourne will be able to give him time and space, we needed more from him.
He isn't soft but he isn't a ball winner unless he is in peak position and can run away from heat.
If he has 3 games like last week, he will gain attention and be shut down. Windy would chew him up and spit him out.

[CQ SAINT]

Another interesting comparison with high half forwards would be Jack Higgins.
Higgins get a goal game. Billings could but is also an unreliable kick but clearly not as reliable as Higgins.
Billings get 6 more kicks a game and I've heard about this reputation of setting up forward with inside 50's.
Reality tells us that Higgins has .66 goal assists, Billings has .68. Selective memories and pot shots at the coaching staff and list management is the only reason this ridiculous discussion continues.
I'd rather both Bonner and Henry than Billings and let's revisit this in 10 years when our first round draft pick from 2023, Darcy Wilson has racked up 150 games.

[meher baba]

It's amazing how much hatred there is still for Billings on fan forums (and presumably among many St Kilda fans).

It wasn't his fault that he got picked ahead of Bontempelli: if he'd been taken with a second round pick, he'd probably be a fan favourite.

He's never going to be a superstar, but I would expect some further improvement on what we've already seen at Melbourne as his confidence grows and he learns how the team plays.

I find the comment that he goes better at Melbourne because they've got a better midfield quite amusing, given that the bull who drives the Melbourne midfield is one C Petracca.

I'm not suggesting we should have hung on to Billings: he got injured at exactly the wrong time and, by the time he was fit again, the club had decided that, come what may, Phillipou was hanging onto his spot (which is arguably where Billings belonged).

But we didn't exactly get the best possible deal for him. Lyon doesn't try to hide his contempt for the players he doesn't want and this must sometimes cause list managers to tear their hair out.

[meher baba]

CQ SAINT: "Higgins get a goal game. Billings could but is also an unreliable kick but clearly not as reliable as Higgins.

I assume you meant to say that Billings was more reliable a kick on goal than Higgins.

I can't be bothered looking up the stats but my impression is that Billings makes a fair few more tackles on average than Higgins. And he's a better performer when running back into defence.

And I don't really think Higgins can be described as a "high half forward." He's an unusual player, that's for sure, but I reckon he has to be seen a pure forward: a guy who plays in the crumbing role but who doesn't do a lot of crumbing and who doesn't apply much pressure when he doesn't have the ball, but who is surprisingly good overhead given his height.

[CQ SAINT]

It's amazing how much hatred there is still for Billings on fan forums (and presumably among many St Kilda fans).

It wasn't his fault that he got picked ahead of Bontempelli: if he'd been taken with a second round pick, he'd probably be a fan favourite.

He's never going to be a superstar, but I would expect some further improvement on what we've already seen at Melbourne as his confidence grows and he learns how the team plays.

I find the comment that he goes better at Melbourne because they've got a better midfield quite amusing, given that the bull who drives the Melbourne midfield is one C Petracca.

I'm not suggesting we should have hung on to Billings: he got injured at exactly the wrong time and, by the time he was fit again, the club had decided that, come what may, Phillipou was hanging onto his spot (which is arguably where Billings belonged).

But we didn't exactly get the best possible deal for him. Lyon doesn't try to hide his contempt for the players he doesn't want and this must sometimes cause list managers to tear their hair out.

Not his fault, didn't get the best deal, what are you saying?

His manager was screaming for offers. It was quite embarrassing, we did him a favour and theonly time he has been fit enough in the last 4 years was last week.
You should just re-read and delete that last post.

What's Phillpou got to do with it?
Billing was injured MOST of last year.

[CQ SAINT]

CQ SAINT: "Higgins get a goal game. Billings could but is also an unreliable kick but clearly not as reliable as Higgins.

I assume you meant to say that Billings was more reliable a kick on goal than Higgins.

I can't be bothered looking up the stats but my impression is that Billings makes a fair few more tackles on average than Higgins. And he's a better performer when running back into defence.

And I don't really think Higgins can be described as a "high half forward." He's an unusual player, that's for sure, but I reckon he has to be seen a pure forward: a guy who plays in the crumbing role but who doesn't do a lot of crumbing and who doesn't apply much pressure when he doesn't have the ball, but who is surprisingly good overhead given his height.

Higgins gets less kicks. Gets nearly as many goal assists not as many inside fifties and kicks more goals. You should be able to analyse that and come up with your 9wn opinion. Billing can't handle pressure, isn't really a foward at all, can't handle an opponent with the same endurance and is tagged out of games easily. We used to call it soft, now we call it undervalued.

[meher baba]

You mean the last two years, surely. I recall him playing pretty regularly before some point in 2022.

Anyway, it’s clear you share the negative feelings of many Saints fans towards the guy. I suspect that, as with Luke Ball, these feelings will only grow more negative if he continues to perform well at his new club.

I think I’ll keep our of it henceforth.

[CQ SAINT]

Richo's game plan was designed to give Billings and Newnes the ball. It was terribly flawed.

[meher baba]

One last point (genuine question). Are you saying Billings has been tagged at some point? Seems a bit unlikely.

[CQ SAINT]

I'm just looking at the form and stats. Played regularly under the jab, was the problem. Ratten questioned it and Lyon stopped it.

[CQ SAINT]

When you run with Billings, who will drop of the play or lead up hard into defence, he gets less kick and more handballs. He is a possession chaser, but 20 metres kicks and handballs under pressure arent the trade marks of a great linking play maker. They are a waste of time and allow defence to set up.

[CQ SAINT]

Bonner is much better at clearing the ball from defence Sinclair is Sinclair and Nas is already a better player. Is Billings a half back incognito?

[B.M]

Higgins and Billings are nothing alike - play different positions for starters

Higgins is more like Gresham

Lower possession- higher impact forward

Billings is a link player between mid/foward

Melbourne will use him as a user of the ball

[Teflon]

You mean the last two years, surely. I recall him playing pretty regularly before some point in 2022.

Anyway, it’s clear you share the negative feelings of many Saints fans towards the guy. I suspect that, as with Luke Ball, these feelings will only grow more negative if he continues to perform well at his new club.

I think I’ll keep our of it henceforth.

I think your Lyon hatred bias comes through as well…just while we are all being honest on pot shots ..
After 7 years?? I’m glad we got a coach that called time on beige JB
He’ll go well as a passenger at Dees, with no pressure as a good ordinary footballer
He couldn’t handle the responsibilities of lifting his game to hi so -called “elite” capabilities he somehow presented as a junior ..
anyway , who gives a rats clacker - we’ve moved on with higher impact players in that role
Henry a huge loss
I never once said that about Billing’s…

[meher baba]

You mean the last two years, surely. I recall him playing pretty regularly before some point in 2022.

Anyway, it’s clear you share the negative feelings of many Saints fans towards the guy. I suspect that, as with Luke Ball, these feelings will only grow more negative if he continues to perform well at his new club.

I think I’ll keep our of it henceforth.

I think your Lyon hatred bias comes through as well…just while we are all being honest on pot shots ..
After 7 years?? I’m glad we got a coach that called time on beige JB
He’ll go well as a passenger at Dees, with no pressure as a good ordinary footballer
He couldn’t handle the responsibilities of lifting his game to hi so -called “elite” capabilities he somehow presented as a junior ..
anyway , who gives a rats clacker - we’ve moved on with higher impact players in that role
Henry a huge loss
I never once said that about Billing’s…

I don’t have any Lyon hatred. I was happy to see him come back and thinks he’s done well.

He undoubtedly doesn’t suffer players he doesn’t think are up to the job he wants them to do and isn’t much interested in adjusting his strategies to fit the needs and capabilities of an individual player. That’s fine by me if it gets the job done, but it doesn’t necessarily mean those players are utterly useless.

[SaintPav]

Coffield subbed out with a shoulder injury.

[skeptic]

Coffield subbed out with a shoulder injury.

Tough break for the kid

Hated to lose him but it has been a miserable start got him in new colours

[skeptic]

It's amazing how much hatred there is still for Billings on fan forums (and presumably among many St Kilda fans).

It wasn't his fault that he got picked ahead of Bontempelli: if he'd been taken with a second round pick, he'd probably be a fan favourite.

He's never going to be a superstar, but I would expect some further improvement on what we've already seen at Melbourne as his confidence grows and he learns how the team plays.

I find the comment that he goes better at Melbourne because they've got a better midfield quite amusing, given that the bull who drives the Melbourne midfield is one C Petracca.

I'm not suggesting we should have hung on to Billings: he got injured at exactly the wrong time and, by the time he was fit again, the club had decided that, come what may, Phillipou was hanging onto his spot (which is arguably where Billings belonged).

But we didn't exactly get the best possible deal for him. Lyon doesn't try to hide his contempt for the players he doesn't want and this must sometimes cause list managers to tear their hair out.

For me, it’s not hatred of Billings and we’ve had this conversation before…
It’s not his draft position. After a period of time, his level of talent came through and then he started getting paid for that at $600k+.

That’s not be a contributor money… that’s match winner money and to that standard, Billings has underachieved massively.
He’s been a match winner to excellent IMO in less than a quarter of the games he’s played.

For his price… in terms of salary to performance, very bad investment.

All of that said…
I’d have kept him for this year for what we gave him up for… but like Gresh who decent player but no way he’s worth $700k… Billings cost/value analysis is very poor.

The hate you’re sensing has little to do with Billings himself but more at BM’s presentation of him as an elite player of the comp worthy of a Brownlow, that is making us look silly every week.
Currently he’s on par with his baseline… getting easy kicks against mediocre opposition

You can only play who you have… but his half a game vs Sydney was very poor and he’s a long way away from proving his detractors wrong just yet.

[meher baba]

skeptic: "The hate you’re sensing has little to do with Billings himself but more at BM’s presentation of him as an elite player of the comp worthy of a Brownlow. "

I'm not quite sure that this is what BM is saying, but I'll leave it to him to defend himself.

Billings most assuredly is not a potential Brownlow-winner. I really have no idea how much he was paid over the years at our club, but that really wasn't his fault either: players (or their managers) presumably go for as much as they can get.

I think that, like many early draft picks, he has failed to live up to the potential that was seen in him by many clubs and their scouts in the year that he was drafted. He's not big enough, quick enough or impactful enough to be game-breaking player. He doesn't seem to have the tank to be a midfielder (although I suspect Melbourne is going to run him through there a bit).

But to give the guy his due, even though he hasn't turned out to be the star that everyone hoped he would be, he has given an honest, AFL quality performance on the field more often than not. Which is why he is getting a game at the Demons ATM. But he will need to find a way of avoiding getting injured again or else his career will nosedive at that club as well.

[B.M]

Don’t think he’s an elite player in the comp

He’s a very handy HF/Wing more HF - so for the position he plays. He is very good. He’s better than Phillipou

Has loads of talent and his numbers are very consistent at 20 and a goal - which for a HF are very good - almost elite (depending on what you do with them.

Billings has a touch of class, given his skill level. And reads the game well.

Set shot goal kicking has held him back from being an elite HF