Injury update

[Simon Templar]

".....an average performer like Paton and Hayes or McKenzie" a bit harsh given the fact that, apart from injury, at least 2 out of the three would be PERMANENT members of our best 22, in my opinion!!!!

[B.M]

Lenny missed

Half a season with a broken wrist

Two full seasons- knee Recos

Again
Not injury prone - unlucky

[skeptic]

I’m kind of with Moods here.

Obviously yes, injury can often be in the context of bad luck.
Go for a mark and land a particular way, slip, big bump etc.

Hunter Clark is pbly one of the better recent examples here noting that the majority of injuries are impact and football act injuries rather than poor prep.

Alternatively however… Lenny Hayes is arguably the best example of a player that took every preventative measure ever known to absolutely minimise the risk of serious injury and despite a few bad instances… was incredibly durable over the course of his career, especially how rough and tumble he was.

Read Missions’ book -
Attended all the trainings
All the recovery prep, the extra 0600 cold dips (that were optional), diet was meticulous, technique on tackles and bumps practiced to the point of being second nature and he always protected himself.
Add to that… yeah he throw himself into tackles and contests… but you didn’t see too many kamikaze plays that looked dangerous, everything he did was controlled.

Didn’t stop everything but geeeez he reduced the probability of injury about as much as he could. As did Harvey, Riewoldt etc

Do you honestly think that Jones has demonstrated the same level of commitment to this cause. The rumour mill has been on overdrive pre-Lyon for years of him coming back ore-season grossly out of shape, that he has been heavy on the booze and as far as his injuries go…
His soft tissue is incredibly chronic at this point but he’s had a huge when he’s tweaked and strained within the first half of the game.

Do you really attribute that primarily to luck?

[B.M]

Yes I do

Zac Jones has played a lot of footy - I think he played about 130-140 games. 90 in Sydney in 5 years.

He is an explosive runner and players who are power runners can tear strings and calves. It’s common place.

Robert Harvey - had chronic calf and hamstring issues at stages of his career.
Nick Reiwoldt tore his hammy off the bone

No matter how well you prepare and recover all it takes is one overstretched movement and they go!


I’ve been to a lot of trainings
Zac looks as fit as a fiddle and even injured is always in the gym or on the bike or running laps or doing run throughs.

[skeptic]

So luck is the main contributor to injuries
Players are good are bad solely on talent
Coach is only as good as the list

Boy… everything seems out of our control to you doesn’t it

[NickyDal]

So luck is the main contributor to injuries
Players are good are bad solely on talent
Coach is only as good as the list

Boy… everything seems out of our control to you doesn’t it

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL but we should have cleaned out more players and spent 4 years in the bottom 4 first before getting him as our coach

[B.M]

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL?

Who thinks that?!

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

Clarkson, Hardwick, McCrae and C Scott would easily be the best 3 coaches in the AFL
Arguably Beveridge Longmire and Simpson next having succeeded

Hinkley, Lyon and Fagan seem to be 3 good yet unsuccessful coaches so far

Spending 4 years near the bottom doesn’t guarantee anything other than a losers mentality

Few teams have done that and gone anywhere
Carlton 05-07 three number 1 draft picks and Judd
Melbourne 08-10 same

[B.M]

Skeptic

A lot of things are out of your control

There are a number of things you can control
1/ your list (to a degree as there are constraints like draft and SC) led by list management
2/ your fitness which is led by high performance manager
3/ selection done by match committee
4/ rehab program- led by medical
5/strategy and match day tactics led by coach and assistants
6/ training standards led by coach and assistants
7/leadership - selected by coaches and players
8/

Out of your control to a degree
Missing important goals
Injuries
Playing better opposition- less talent
Ground you are on - travel etc
Draw/fixture

Probably some others too

[CQ SAINT]

Ross Lyon has a philosophy on what he can control.
If a player hasn't done the conditioning prior to the start of the season, they don't play till they have.
Jack Billings played under a different one with Richo and Ratten and was apparently a pro-preparer. Convenient dialogue when you want to rush him back in and his doctor will glady jab him, then people gush over his 170 metres gained from 15 disposals at 75% efficiency and are ready to bag the s*** out of Brad Hill for 20 disposals 350 metres gained at 72,5%.
The best means of control was to give the problem to someone else and pay.

Now Melbourne have bo forward line at all, let's see him not play forward cause he can't kick a goal to save himself.

[spert]

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL?

Who thinks that?!

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

Clarkson, Hardwick, McCrae and C Scott would easily be the best 3 coaches in the AFL
Arguably Beveridge Longmire and Simpson next having succeeded

Hinkley, Lyon and Fagan seem to be 3 good yet unsuccessful coaches so far

Spending 4 years near the bottom doesn’t guarantee anything other than a losers mentality

Few teams have done that and gone anywhere
Carlton 05-07 three number 1 draft picks and Judd
Melbourne 08-10 same

I would rather have a premiership winning coach, than "the best coach in the league"

[skeptic]

So bringing this back to Jones… do you think (as best as you can know) Zac’s preparation/dedication is at an elite level? Do you think he’s as good as say a Lenny Hayes in this regard?

[Moods]

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL?

Who thinks that?!

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

Clarkson, Hardwick, McCrae and C Scott would easily be the best 3 coaches in the AFL
Arguably Beveridge Longmire and Simpson next having succeeded

Hinkley, Lyon and Fagan seem to be 3 good yet unsuccessful coaches so far

Spending 4 years near the bottom doesn’t guarantee anything other than a losers mentality

Few teams have done that and gone anywhere
Carlton 05-07 three number 1 draft picks and Judd
Melbourne 08-10 same

You sometimes have a very basic way of looking at the game BM. So whoever wins the most premierships is the best coach? Like the people who claim J Brown was better than Roo because he ‘won’ 3 flags.

I’ve spoken directly with footy people who should know, claiming that Jezza was barely better than a local club coach. Same with Tony Jewell. Dennis Pagan? Lucky he had Carey.

I reckon Lyon was far and away the best coach in the league last year considering what was at his disposal compared to the other coaches you mentioned. If he was coaching Carlton they probably would have won the flag

[Moods]

And BM you posted or replied to my posts and I’m certain you didn’t even read what I wrote. I said that anyone with any longevity in the game will suffer bad injuries. Roo and Lenny no exceptions. But apart from a chronic knee which Roo handled superbly and Lenny suffering a couple of ACL’s and other impact injuries that can’t be helped, they prove my point. Yes Roo tore his hammy badly, but he never had chronic soft tissue injuries like Jones and a few others we’ve mentioned

[Moods]

".....an average performer like Paton and Hayes or McKenzie" a bit harsh given the fact that, apart from injury, at least 2 out of the three would be PERMANENT members of our best 22, in my opinion!!!!

Definitely a matter of opinion. McKenzie was a goer but in a strong team not necessarily a lock, but yes when on the field a good player, Paton plays a role and is hardly a first player picked type. Not saying he’s a poor player but he’ll need to work to get his spot back.

Hayes, for mine, looked like he could be anything and play that crucial 2nd ruck/fwd role. Right now, he’ll be lucky to get another contract

[Yorkeys]

All three were all excellent. Paton had a couple of major leg bones broken. Hayes was found out by the difference between SANFL and AFL. If we got him earlier could have been a world beater. McKenzie was in AA form before head planting off Rich and then his chronic leg muscle problems surfaced. All were brave and skilful. Even Achilles was brought down by a heel issue. Wouldn't call him average.

[Moods]

All three were all excellent. Paton had a couple of major leg bones broken. Hayes was found out by the difference between SANFL and AFL. If we got him earlier could have been a world beater. McKenzie was in AA form before head planting off Rich and then his chronic leg muscle problems surfaced. All were brave and skilful. Even Achilles was brought down by a heel issue. Wouldn't call him average.

The lot of a supporter and even a coach is to over rate the players on your list. McKenzie in AA form? When did that happen?

He was playing some very good football, however I doubt 90% of opposition supporters would have known who he was. He was a good AFL footballer when up and running. That’s not a knock on him, but players in AA form are normally looking at winning club B&F’s. In his 70 odd games for the Saints he averaged 13 possessions a game, and 16 being the most he ever averaged in any given year….

[B.M]

I would say from what I’ve seen Zac is elite in his preparation

Does he appear in bad shape to you?!

I would add that McKenzie is even better

How exactly can you stop muscles from sometimes tearing under extreme stress?

[Yorkeys]

All three were all excellent. Paton had a couple of major leg bones broken. Hayes was found out by the difference between SANFL and AFL. If we got him earlier could have been a world beater. McKenzie was in AA form before head planting off Rich and then his chronic leg muscle problems surfaced. All were brave and skilful. Even Achilles was brought down by a heel issue. Wouldn't call him average.

The lot of a supporter and even a coach is to over rate the players on your list. McKenzie in AA form? When did that happen?

He was playing some very good football, however I doubt 90% of opposition supporters would have known who he was. He was a good AFL footballer when up and running. That’s not a knock on him, but players in AA form are normally looking at winning club B&F’s. In his 70 odd games for the Saints he averaged 13 possessions a game, and 16 being the most he ever averaged in any given year….

Missing the point and pedantic. FYI the burst of top form came just before his concussion when Rich took his legs out in a marking situation. The overall point was class potential unrealised because of injury.

[B.M]

Who is on the injury list at the moment

Collard?? Haven’t seen him at training for a fortnight

Crouch - still running laps
Clark - Concussion
Dow - Knee
Butler - Ankle
Hayes - Knee
Van Es - Ankle
Paton - Pec
Sincs ????

Any others?

[Moods]

Who is on the injury list at the moment

Collard?? Haven’t seen him at training for a fortnight

Crouch - still running laps
Clark - Concussion
Dow - Knee
Butler - Ankle
Hayes - Knee
Van Es - Ankle
Paton - Pec
Sincs ????

Any others?

Starting to mount up unfortunately. And practice matches haven’t even started, not withstanding that obviously the boys are doing plenty of match sim at training

[magnifisaint]

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL?

Who thinks that?!

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

Clarkson, Hardwick, McCrae and C Scott would easily be the best 3 coaches in the AFL
Arguably Beveridge Longmire and Simpson next having succeeded

Hinkley, Lyon and Fagan seem to be 3 good yet unsuccessful coaches so far

Spending 4 years near the bottom doesn’t guarantee anything other than a losers mentality

Few teams have done that and gone anywhere
Carlton 05-07 three number 1 draft picks and Judd
Melbourne 08-10 same

Lyon has been very unlucky twice. Far an away a better coach than Fagan and Hinkley.

[NickyDal]

Lyon is the best coach in the AFL?

Who thinks that?!

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

Clarkson, Hardwick, McCrae and C Scott would easily be the best 3 coaches in the AFL
Arguably Beveridge Longmire and Simpson next having succeeded

Hinkley, Lyon and Fagan seem to be 3 good yet unsuccessful coaches so far

Spending 4 years near the bottom doesn’t guarantee anything other than a losers mentality

Few teams have done that and gone anywhere
Carlton 05-07 three number 1 draft picks and Judd
Melbourne 08-10 same

Who thinks that?!

I believe that.

He’s won zero premierships in 13 years of coaching which is almost a record

This is a very simplistic and childish viewpoint in my opinion. If I extrapolate this out further, Tom Hafey is a failed coach too.

Just remember, Toe Poke and the best Off Break in cricket history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[B.M]

Has he won a flag?!

[cwrcyn]

We were unlucky to Geelong after kicking badly for goal in the first half, and then we got beaten by a juiced up Collingwood. Those human growth hormones work a treat.

[saynta]

We were unlucky to Geelong after kicking badly for goal in the first half, and then we got beaten by a juiced up Collingwood. Those human growth hormones work a treat.

Yep, but I believe both the cats and the filth were juiced up when we played them in 09 and 10.