Will Ross Continue to Play the Kids?

[Vortex]

Been reading a lot of posters here and on BF praise Ross for playing the kids last year in support of their argument Ross is now a proven developer of kids as part of the wider argument about his ability to rebuild a list from the ground up into a flag team.

As we know he only had a win rate of 33% in his last 4 years at Freo before being sacked which suggests he failed in his first attempt at list rebuilding. This is kind of an uncomfortable fact for the one eyed supporter.

But now that we have put the year of “exploration” behind us and are about to enter the year when we get our first glimpse of Ross the “developer”, and him having access to a full list to pick from, especially a lot more senior and experienced players that weren’t available to him last year, what’s every one’s gut feel on his approach to picking kids over senior players in 2024?

As I say, he was forced to pick kids in 2023, but do you think he’ll leave a senior player at Sandy in preference to a kid week-in and week-out throughout 24?

[Dis Believer]

Been reading a lot of posters here and on BF praise Ross for playing the kids last year in support of their argument Ross is now a proven developer of kids as part of the wider argument about his ability to rebuild a list from the ground up into a flag team.

As we know he only had a win rate of 33% in his last 4 years at Freo before being sacked which suggests he failed in his first attempt at list rebuilding. This is kind of an uncomfortable fact for the one eyed supporter.

But now that we have put the year of “exploration” behind us and are about to enter the year when we get our first glimpse of Ross the “developer”, and him having access to a full list to pick from, especially a lot more senior and experienced players that weren’t available to him last year, what’s every one’s gut feel on his approach to picking kids over senior players in 2024?

As I say, he was forced to pick kids in 2023, but do you think he’ll leave a senior player at Sandy in preference to a kid week-in and week-out throughout 24?

Don't you get bored of flogging the same tired narrative on two separate forums?

I know I get bored of having to scroll past your drivel.........

[Life Long Saint]

Coaches are all the same...Whilst finals are in the frame, they will pick the best 22 (23) that gives the side the best possible chance of winning the game.
Once you're out of contention, then you can play with the line up.

So, if we have a fit forward line to choose from, I think Caminiti gets far less game time this season as King, Membrey, Hayes, and Sharman are ahead of him.
If Marshall is injured, then Campbell will play ahead of Heath and Keeler.
Expect the trade acquisitions to be given game time, potentially ahead of the draftees.

What I don't want to see is the selection of the team be like the Australian test team...Sustained excellent VFL performances need to be rewarded, and sustained poor or inconsitent AFL ones need to be punished.

[Otiman]

In his most recent press conference, he said as much.

Develop players, win enough games to make finals - the dual narrative.

No reason to read into it any more than that until the actions prove otherwise.

[saint6709]

He didn't play Howard or Billings in the last few games of the season last year - that says something I think

[Life Long Saint]

He didn't play Howard or Billings in the last few games of the season last year - that says something I think

Howard was carrying an injury and he was badly missed in the final v GWS.

[saint6709]

Pretty sure he was fit to play - if he was badly missed that was the point I was making when I said - that says something I think

[skeptic]

Pretty sure he was fit to play - if he was badly missed that was the point I was making when I said - that says something I think

That’s my impression as well

[cwrcyn]

I think it's about the ability to do the hard running that will count for all but a couple of players. A fit youngster will get picked over a half fit senior player. That's not always been the case in the past

I get the impression that Lyon believes we're very much a work in progress. He knows we can't win a flag with our 2023 midfield. No chance. Therefore, I think he'll have a willingness to throw some youngsters in there if he sees they've got the fitness and can bring something that will add some energy and a point of difference to the mix

It'll be a balance between selecting a team that can win, but also a team he can develop.

[The G Train Legacy]

Been reading a lot of posters here and on BF praise Ross for playing the kids last year in support of their argument Ross is now a proven developer of kids as part of the wider argument about his ability to rebuild a list from the ground up into a flag team.

As we know he only had a win rate of 33% in his last 4 years at Freo before being sacked which suggests he failed in his first attempt at list rebuilding. This is kind of an uncomfortable fact for the one eyed supporter.

But now that we have put the year of “exploration” behind us and are about to enter the year when we get our first glimpse of Ross the “developer”, and him having access to a full list to pick from, especially a lot more senior and experienced players that weren’t available to him last year, what’s every one’s gut feel on his approach to picking kids over senior players in 2024?

As I say, he was forced to pick kids in 2023, but do you think he’ll leave a senior player at Sandy in preference to a kid week-in and week-out throughout 24?

If you demand a spot in the 22 on the training track, then Ross plays you. That's how Lyon operates and always has.

[TheGreatZacsby]

Been reading a lot of posters here and on BF praise Ross for playing the kids last year in support of their argument Ross is now a proven developer of kids as part of the wider argument about his ability to rebuild a list from the ground up into a flag team.

As we know he only had a win rate of 33% in his last 4 years at Freo before being sacked which suggests he failed in his first attempt at list rebuilding. This is kind of an uncomfortable fact for the one eyed supporter.

But now that we have put the year of “exploration” behind us and are about to enter the year when we get our first glimpse of Ross the “developer”, and him having access to a full list to pick from, especially a lot more senior and experienced players that weren’t available to him last year, what’s every one’s gut feel on his approach to picking kids over senior players in 2024?

As I say, he was forced to pick kids in 2023, but do you think he’ll leave a senior player at Sandy in preference to a kid week-in and week-out throughout 24?

Don't you get bored of flogging the same tired narrative on two separate forums?

I know I get bored of having to scroll past your drivel.........

I’ve figured out who he is on Big Footy and the forum there shuts this bulls*** down as quickly as it does here. Vortex you aren’t making any friends mate.

[Vortex]

Coaches are all the same...Whilst finals are in the frame, they will pick the best 22 (23) that gives the side the best possible chance of winning the game.
Once you're out of contention, then you can play with the line up.

So, if we have a fit forward line to choose from, I think Caminiti gets far less game time this season as King, Membrey, Hayes, and Sharman are ahead of him.
If Marshall is injured, then Campbell will play ahead of Heath and Keeler.
Expect the trade acquisitions to be given game time, potentially ahead of the draftees.

What I don't want to see is the selection of the team be like the Australian test team...Sustained excellent VFL performances need to be rewarded, and sustained poor or inconsitent AFL ones need to be punished.

So the senior players that could keep the kids out:

Zac Jones
Seb Ross
Member
Webster
Cordy
Jack Hayes
Dow
Henry
Bonner

[nostalgicsaint]

Been reading a lot of posters here and on BF praise Ross for playing the kids last year in support of their argument Ross is now a proven developer of kids as part of the wider argument about his ability to rebuild a list from the ground up into a flag team.

As we know he only had a win rate of 33% in his last 4 years at Freo before being sacked which suggests he failed in his first attempt at list rebuilding. This is kind of an uncomfortable fact for the one eyed supporter.

But now that we have put the year of “exploration” behind us and are about to enter the year when we get our first glimpse of Ross the “developer”, and him having access to a full list to pick from, especially a lot more senior and experienced players that weren’t available to him last year, what’s every one’s gut feel on his approach to picking kids over senior players in 2024?

As I say, he was forced to pick kids in 2023, but do you think he’ll leave a senior player at Sandy in preference to a kid week-in and week-out throughout 24?

Don't you get bored of flogging the same tired narrative on two separate forums?

I know I get bored of having to scroll past your drivel.........

+1

[B.M]

I’d prefer he just play the best 22n- every week

Integrity in selection is very important

[skeptic]

So the senior players that could keep the kids out:

Zac Jones
Seb Ross
Member
Webster
Cordy
Jack Hayes
Dow
Henry
Bonner

Like everything… I think it’s just a matter of getting the balance right.

You need balance on rewarding good form but also giving developing players the opportunity to grow. This list is quite curious because places an emphasis on the term senior player…

I mean in terms of age, Hayes and Cordy may be older but they aren’t ‘senior’ players per’se. Neither along Bonner get to start as being considered anything but depth…
Same goes with Dow and Henry who are younger still but are comfortable competing for to 22.

In the context of this conversation…
The players relevant here are Ross, Webster and Membrey with Jones to a lesser degree (if he can stay on the park).

The challenge for me is in the first three… historically this type of group of players is challenging.
For mine… they need to be at the tops of their game to be continually selected and I reckon if they struggle… the merit in playing them vs someone that could overtake them diminishes.

Obvious competition
Membrey - Sharman and Caminati
Ross - Windhager and Dow
Webster - Bonner, Paton, Garcia

Of that list… Webster seems safe as houses for now and Ross’ best has him head and shoulders above his competitors but his next gear down would see me want to spread the opportunity a bit.

[Vortex]

So the senior players that could keep the kids out:

Zac Jones
Seb Ross
Member
Webster
Cordy
Jack Hayes
Dow
Henry
Bonner

Like everything… I think it’s just a matter of getting the balance right.

You need balance on rewarding good form but also giving developing players the opportunity to grow. This list is quite curious because places an emphasis on the term senior player…

I mean in terms of age, Hayes and Cordy may be older but they aren’t ‘senior’ players per’se. Neither along Bonner get to start as being considered anything but depth…
Same goes with Dow and Henry who are younger still but are comfortable competing for to 22.

In the context of this conversation…
The players relevant here are Ross, Webster and Membrey with Jones to a lesser degree (if he can stay on the park).

The challenge for me is in the first three… historically this type of group of players is challenging.
For mine… they need to be at the tops of their game to be continually selected and I reckon if they struggle… the merit in playing them vs someone that could overtake them diminishes.

Obvious competition
Membrey - Sharman and Caminati
Ross - Windhager and Dow
Webster - Bonner, Paton, Garcia

Of that list… Webster seems safe as houses for now and Ross’ best has him head and shoulders above his competitors but his next gear down would see me want to spread the opportunity a bit.

It's going to be one of the more fascinating sub plots of the upcoming season and no doubt going to create weekly interest at the selection table for the fans who are convinced cuddly Ross is a changed man and is all about the kids.

Personally I think the old Ross hasn't changed too much and isn't about to gift games to kids like the Pou as he did in 2024 because as we know that was out of necessity due to the injury crisis.

Members is the one that will potentially keep two players out in Sharman and Caminiti especially if Hayes is playing as it's hard to see any more talls in the front half.

[nostalgicsaint]

So the senior players that could keep the kids out:

Zac Jones
Seb Ross
Member
Webster
Cordy
Jack Hayes
Dow
Henry
Bonner

Like everything… I think it’s just a matter of getting the balance right.

You need balance on rewarding good form but also giving developing players the opportunity to grow. This list is quite curious because places an emphasis on the term senior player…

I mean in terms of age, Hayes and Cordy may be older but they aren’t ‘senior’ players per’se. Neither along Bonner get to start as being considered anything but depth…
Same goes with Dow and Henry who are younger still but are comfortable competing for to 22.

In the context of this conversation…
The players relevant here are Ross, Webster and Membrey with Jones to a lesser degree (if he can stay on the park).

The challenge for me is in the first three… historically this type of group of players is challenging.
For mine… they need to be at the tops of their game to be continually selected and I reckon if they struggle… the merit in playing them vs someone that could overtake them diminishes.

Obvious competition
Membrey - Sharman and Caminati
Ross - Windhager and Dow
Webster - Bonner, Paton, Garcia

Of that list… Webster seems safe as houses for now and Ross’ best has him head and shoulders above his competitors but his next gear down would see me want to spread the opportunity a bit.

It's going to be one of the more fascinating sub plots of the upcoming season and no doubt going to create weekly interest at the selection table for the fans who are convinced cuddly Ross is a changed man and is all about the kids.

Personally I think the old Ross hasn't changed too much and isn't about to gift games to kids like the Pou as he did in 2024 because as we know that was out of necessity due to the injury crisis.

Members is the one that will potentially keep two players out in Sharman and Caminiti especially if Hayes is playing as it's hard to see any more talls in the front half.

You cherry pick evidence from RLs coaching past to be critical but are critical of 'fan boys' for doing the same.

The reality of our list profile right now is you could play our most experienced 22 each week and still be getting more than enough games into the kids, so yes I expect he will gift no one games and you'll come on here claiming he hasn't changed and based on a 4 year cherry picked window of his coaching career he can't take us where we want to go.

[Zed]

Ross will be well aware that our best 22 isn’t capable of winning the flag this year.
But they are capable of making finals and getting valuable experience
Like the rest of us, he is trying to figure out which players we’ve drafted in the last 3 years are capable of making the team good enough to contend for a flag next year or the year after, and so he will want to expose some of them to senior opportunities probably when there may be other senior players in the reserves more worthy. Case in point - Phillipou probably didn’t deserve a game based on form for the last 4-6 games of the season, and Jack Billings would have in all likelihood had more of an impact. I’m not saying it was the wrong decision, but in the long term interests of the club, and developing a player potentially capable of being a finals match winner, it was probably the right decision

[Vortex]

You cherry pick evidence from RLs coaching past to be critical but are critical of 'fan boys' for doing the same.

The reality of our list profile right now is you could play our most experienced 22 each week and still be getting more than enough games into the kids, so yes I expect he will gift no one games and you'll come on here claiming he hasn't changed and based on a 4 year cherry picked window of his coaching career he can't take us where we want to go.

I am actually mostly very positive about Ross as our coach but I do enjoy participating in critiquing his potential weaknesses on footy forums as I feel without this type of participation, footy forums would fail to exist...so you're welcome.

But back on the topic, what are your thoughts re playing the kids?

[Scollop]

I think Ross Lyon will be harder on his senior players and less forgiving, both with their form on game day and their attitudes on the track.

He needs them to be role models and he will lean on them for maintaining standards.

I reckon Webster is in his final year and might struggle to maintain motivation. I've been supportive and will always be a fan, but I think Ben Paton will get more games in 2024 than he did last year...plus there's Stocker...plus maybe Garcia and Hastie

I think Towball and Seb will have to play games at Sandringham too. Same with Jimmy Webster early on in the year. I hope they push hard and have the best season of their careers, but I have a feeling they're on the slide... possibly same scenario for Skunk and Crouchy (although that may occur later in the year for them)

[spert]

I think Lyon was playing younger guys as he had nobody else fit enough to see out games. We saw a lot of potential as a result, but he will not persist too long with anyone who gets beaten in their position- he was brought in at great cost to try and win a flag.

[samoht]

Lyon (and any hidden puppeteer/s) will keep erring on the side of playing the kids and giving them more game time.
Wilson is certain to play opening round - he's training the house down.

I include Hunter Clark in the kid category ... he averaged over 18 possessions with only 58% game time last year, I expect him to nudge 25 possessions this year.
We have added plenty of leg speed with our recent recruiting, so I expect to see a lot more of Clark (and his footy smarts).

As the kids mature and add another 2-5 possessions to their average each year - that's what'll drive the team's improvement (and hopefully will more than makes up for any decline in the senior players).
Simple.

[saint6709]

[Vortex]

Anyone hear Kane Cornes on SEN this morning suggesting our young kids might be getting some overrating by some sections of the Media because of the Ross factor?

Ironically one of those pumping us up is Kingy which could be because of his friendship with Joey but to be fair to Kingy he is one of the few in the media that does spend a bit of time at clubland.

[Sanctorum]

I'd be surprised if Lyon does not continue as he did last year and give the kids plenty of games in 2024.

He looks to me to have adopted a different strategy in his third crack at senior coaching, so relying on his previous stints at both St Kilda and Fremantle as an indication of what he will do this year is imho misguided.

If you look at the current list of players, Brad Hill is the only elite veteran at St Kilda, unlike teams such as Collingwood, Geelong and others that have genuine experienced matchwinners in their teams.

So it seems logical that the selectors will opt to continue to pump games into the young talent that has come to Moorabbin in the last three years.