Will Keeler be the real deal??

[CQ SAINT]

If this was a thread about the use of illicit drugs, we'd be pointing the finger at quite a few.
House parties are such wholesome events usually. Lol.

[B.M]

So what is it?

Coaches control the players
And
Lyon couldn’t control Lovett
And
Lyon is not responsible for Lovett
And
Ratten was responsible for some players

Make your mind up?!


My view
Lyon is a good coach, who is not immune to making mistakes or mismanaging some players
Lyon had relative success with StK and Freo with great lists
And was sacked for poor performance with a lesser list

[CQ SAINT]

So what is it?

Coaches control the players
And
Lyon couldn’t control Lovett
And
Lyon is not responsible for Lovett
And
Ratten was responsible for some players

Make your mind up?!


My view
Lyon is a good coach, who is not immune to making mistakes or mismanaging some players
Lyon had relative success with StK and Freo with great lists
And was sacked for poor performance with a lesser list

I didn't sack Ratten. He was a good coach he just wasn't in control of anything in the end BM.

You're just arguing for arguments sake and inventing questions that just arent based on fact or reality.

It keeps threads going though. So, well done on that front.

I love the way you turn your statements into completely irrelevant questions. Its a strange learning process but whatever floats your boat.

Try this, compare 2020, ,21, 22, to 2006 - 2012 and 2023 -27 and get back to me then on who is the better coach in terms of Ratten and Lyon.

Lyon by a country mile.

[skeptic]

So let me ask this BM…

What are your thoughts on GT?

Great coach that got the best out of his list or underachiever?

[B.M]

GT had obvious strengths

Management

Communication

Development

Weaknesses

Maybe tactical, diplomacy

[SAINT-LEE]

Dont know where he'll end up but at ground level last year in vfl & during training this year he has always been positive, asking questions, and seems really keen to succeed. I dont think there's much hindering him..

[skeptic]

You know where this is going BM.

He had a great list… some say the best we’ve ever assembled.

Were you happy with his performance as a coach

Commit to an answer.

[CQ SAINT]

GT is a General. Diplomacy never came into it. He was brilliant and was never going to push the AFL's agenda and they weren't going to let him win a flag.

Thommo wouldn't have gone to Frankston and he wouldn't even play in Tassie. He was focused on one thing. Running a successful business.

The AFL were in charge of the rules though. Now we are back at Moorabbin and GT couldn't give a rats. He has sold a few successful businesses and is doing quite well for himself.

[skeptic]

GT is a General. Diplomacy never came into it. He was brilliant and was never going to push the AFL's agenda and they weren't going to let him win a flag.

Thommo wouldn't have gone to Frankston and he wouldn't even play in Tassie. He was focused on one thing. Running a successful business.

The AFL were in charge of the rules though. Now we are back at Moorabbin and GT couldn't give a rats. He has sold a few successful businesses and is doing quite well for himself.

I’m a big GT fan. Without reopening the debate… I always thought the list was a touch overrated and the lack of investment in the footy department was a fatal blow. That and I think he was a bit stubborn.

The point that I’m making here is that you either accept the mantra that the coach has little effect and it’s the list…
Thereby accepting that that no one would/could have gotten better results than GT over that period give or take…
Or that a coach can help to get the best (or not) out of the list thereby accepting that GT had a critical role in the results and that that experience would vary for others.

I’d like to see where BM lands on this though I doubt I’ll get a clear answer

Personally… to put it primarily on the list to me is painfully simplistic.
Thought Alves was a great coach that helped to elevate the performance of a number of young/older players.

Tim Watson however saw a list with Harvey, Burke, Everite, Winmar, Loewe, Jones, Peckett, Young, Heatley, Hall, Brown, Lappin, Wakelin x2 and others finish down the bottom.

[CQ SAINT]

GT is a General. Diplomacy never came into it. He was brilliant and was never going to push the AFL's agenda and they weren't going to let him win a flag.

Thommo wouldn't have gone to Frankston and he wouldn't even play in Tassie. He was focused on one thing. Running a successful business.

The AFL were in charge of the rules though. Now we are back at Moorabbin and GT couldn't give a rats. He has sold a few successful businesses and is doing quite well for himself.

I’m a big GT fan. Without reopening the debate… I always thought the list was a touch overrated and the lack of investment in the footy department was a fatal blow. That and I think he was a bit stubborn.

The point that I’m making here is that you either accept the mantra that the coach has little effect and it’s the list…
Thereby accepting that that no one would/could have gotten better results than GT over that period give or take…
Or that a coach can help to get the best (or not) out of the list thereby accepting that GT had a critical role in the results and that that experience would vary for others.

I’d like to see where BM lands on this though I doubt I’ll get a clear answer

Personally… to put it primarily on the list to me is painfully simplistic.
Thought Alves was a great coach that helped to elevate the performance of a number of young/older players.

Tim Watson however saw a list with Harvey, Burke, Everite, Winmar, Loewe, Jones, Peckett, Young, Heatley, Hall, Brown, Lappin, Wakelin x2 and others finish down the bottom.

I agree with all of this.

Timmy brought us Nick and Cozzy. GT couldn't afford to take that risk but he worked out who could. Two league legends cut off at the knees and the door open wide for one of our own. Butters had the cash and wanted to spend it. He spent heaps and GT just picked it up and set us up for a dynasty.

The club grew some balls under GT. Ross has a decent set and the boss is apparently prepared to give them a polish. We are shining. It's a business, the cup is a bonus incentive.

[nostalgicsaint]

Again the arguments here are overly simplistic as several are debating this as though there is an absolute answer and accountability to AFL team performance.

There isn't- if there was then it wouldn't be very interesting.

Cherry picking stories like Lovett et al isn't going to prove anything either. For every Lovett or Gram there is a Gardiner or Milne.

The simple reality in my view is elite performance is a combination of Talent, Strategy and Environment.

Talent is responsible for doing the work, the club, coach and leadership team are responsible for setting the environment and strategy.

Given the number of players on any playing list vs the number of coaches and the fact coaches influence 2 out of 3 areas required for success- good clubs focus on 'setting the table' so that the right Talent is attracted and prepared to do the work to feast at said table.

[samoht]

Stewart Loewe's kicking coach, Peter Hudson, deserves a big mention.

What a turnaround.

Who was the senior coach back then?

But, anyway, Stewart Loewe still deserves the credit.

If you get DIY tips from YouTube, or google, should you be crediting them for the projects/renovations that you complete?

[B.M]

I think GT was the perfect coach for the time

Had a developing group along with ageing stars

He was very unlucky with injuries to key players at the wrong times.

He certainly had the players playing for each other and created a great sense of team - selflessness

[B.M]

I also think Ross was perfect to take over

He had all those developing guns moving into their prime

He added high performance standards and strategy

However, neither would have been any good (results wise) without the list they had at their disposal

[CQ SAINT]

I also think Ross was perfect to take over

He had all those developing guns moving into their prime

He added high performance standards and strategy

However, neither would have been any good (results wise) without the list they had at their disposal

Clearly, we need to acknowledge, that while the list was good, in comparative terms the club, not the coaches, failed to take full advantage and yes there was bad luck with injuries for both coaches and some key players, or there were just better lists around at the time.

The latter is the fact we, glued on die-hards, have trouble coming to terms with.

That Ball pay cut was necessary and part of Lyon's strategy that he then stuck to. In hindsight it turned in on him, compounded by the reality, that his preferred choice never made the ground. Like I said, Ball was acting on individual values, he didn't need the money.

I hope the club has learnt a bit. Hanners, Mackenzie, Paddy Mc, Carlisle and Billings would attest to this.

Goddard and Dal have returned. I'm still distributing golden tickets, in the hope that young Keeler has unwrapped one.

[Yorkeys]

We were managed hopelessly for over a decade, before that it's come to light there was a poisonous relationship between coach and president, Nettlefold completely bungled Ross' contract negotiations, what followed was an insipid board, no vision, poor coaching and it appears poor standards. It's tough to dig out of that hole, turn that off course tanker, drag out of the mire.
Thank goodness for A. Bassett, R. Lyon and our current coaches. Time will judge S. Lethlean.
I am as excited as a puppy as well about our prospects, however coming from a long way back and having experienced Murphy's Law on steroids for decades I try to temper could we really go top with I hope we can win a final or two.
I try not to think about young Keeler too much just hope for natural development so he becomes as good as possible.

[B.M]

You do realise

Loewe missed a lot of games in that time
Burke did an ACL
Winmar went to the dogs
Harvey did an ACL and shoulder hardly played for a few years
Everitt missed 16 games in a season
Smith went to Hawthorn
Lappin to Carlton
Young delisted, Heatley delisted. Brown delisted, Hall traded


I think that had more to do with the slide down the ladder

And remember Alves was sacked - because he lost the players in 98

[CQ SAINT]

You do realise

Loewe missed a lot of games in that time
Burke did an ACL
Winmar went to the dogs
Harvey did an ACL and shoulder hardly played for a few years
Everitt missed 16 games in a season
Smith went to Hawthorn
Lappin to Carlton
Young delisted, Heatley delisted. Brown delisted, Hall traded


I think that had more to do with the slide down the ladder

And remember Alves was sacked - because he lost the players in 98

I've been listening to the excuses for 20 years BM. He lost the players or thought the list needed a shake up.

Nick and Cozzy certainly caused a fair shake up. We lost our grandfinals in minutes. Minutes that counted and the other teams came from behind or where just too good.

They were better. End of story really.

[NickyDal]

You do realise

Loewe missed a lot of games in that time
Burke did an ACL
Winmar went to the dogs
Harvey did an ACL and shoulder hardly played for a few years
Everitt missed 16 games in a season
Smith went to Hawthorn
Lappin to Carlton
Young delisted, Heatley delisted. Brown delisted, Hall traded


I think that had more to do with the slide down the ladder

And remember Alves was sacked - because he lost the players in 98

I've been listening to the excuses for 20 years BM. He lost the players or thought the list needed a shake up.

Nick and Cozzy certainly caused a fair shake up. We lost our grandfinals in minutes. Minutes that counted and the other teams came from behind or where just too good.

They were better. End of story really.

This is one of the most stupid comments I have seen in 25 years of posting on this forum. We were the best team by miles in 2009. We lost that Grand Final with wayward kicking for goal in the first half. If you believe otherwise then you have absolutely NFI.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

You do realise

Loewe missed a lot of games in that time
Burke did an ACL
Winmar went to the dogs
Harvey did an ACL and shoulder hardly played for a few years
Everitt missed 16 games in a season
Smith went to Hawthorn
Lappin to Carlton
Young delisted, Heatley delisted. Brown delisted, Hall traded


I think that had more to do with the slide down the ladder

And remember Alves was sacked - because he lost the players in 98

I've been listening to the excuses for 20 years BM. He lost the players or thought the list needed a shake up.

Nick and Cozzy certainly caused a fair shake up. We lost our grandfinals in minutes. Minutes that counted and the other teams came from behind or where just too good.

They were better. End of story really.

This is one of the most stupid comments I have seen in 25 years of posting on this forum. We were the best team by miles in 2009. We lost that Grand Final with wayward kicking for goal in the first half. If you believe otherwise then you have absolutely NFI.

Geelong getting a goal for Hawkins hitting the post and then getting another one just 30 seconds later- after the centre bounce that never should have been- didn’t help either. Instead of having 1 point and the ball in our hands, they had 12 points in the blink of an eye, and all the momentum and confidence that comes from that, in a low-scoring game.

We totally blew that first half though. 35 inside-50’s to 17 or something for just a 1 goal lead.

[CQ SAINT]

You do realise

Loewe missed a lot of games in that time
Burke did an ACL
Winmar went to the dogs
Harvey did an ACL and shoulder hardly played for a few years
Everitt missed 16 games in a season
Smith went to Hawthorn
Lappin to Carlton
Young delisted, Heatley delisted. Brown delisted, Hall traded


I think that had more to do with the slide down the ladder

And remember Alves was sacked - because he lost the players in 98

I've been listening to the excuses for 20 years BM. He lost the players or thought the list needed a shake up.

Nick and Cozzy certainly caused a fair shake up. We lost our grandfinals in minutes. Minutes that counted and the other teams came from behind or where just too good.

They were better. End of story really.

This is one of the most stupid comments I have seen in 25 years of posting on this forum. We were the best team by miles in 2009. We lost that Grand Final with wayward kicking for goal in the first half. If you believe otherwise then you have absolutely NFI.

The best list never to win a Grand final with 3 goes in 12 months? Ok then.

I feel your pain Nicky. But.......I think the drawn match replay speaks for itself, then there was the rebuild and the players given the world and wanting more who left.

Disappointing to say the least.

[magnifisaint]

I think we need a hypnotist. That way the coaches can control the players!

[NickyDal]

I also think Ross was perfect to take over

He had all those developing guns moving into their prime

He added high performance standards and strategy

However, neither would have been any good (results wise) without the list they had at their disposal

I'm just wondering how old you are B.M. Your posts are of the most simplistic nature. If you remember correctly the Saints were on the decline when Ross took over from GT. He changed the course of our trajectory and guess what, he is doing it again.

[B.M]

Decline

Hayes, Riewoldt, Fisher, Montagna, Milne, Dal Santo, Baker, Gram

[skeptic]

I think transition is a more accurate concept here than decline.
Gehrig, Hamil, Powell, Voss, Peckett, Thompson, Jones…

That’s a core group of players from the 04-06 push that essentially either retired or were heading into retirement once RTB took over.

We had a really decent core group going into their prime… but something of a mini rebuild was needed.

Whether it was RTB or had GT stayed on… some moves needed to be made or address that and I think they all knew it.