Will Keeler be the real deal??

[nostalgicsaint]

Ross, I reckon through his own admission- unless he is that pig-headed

Would admit he’s made some mistakes with his handling of certain players

I know an ex player who was definitely not a fan - only became a quality player after Ross left.

Yes he would. Self awareness being one of the key traits of good leadership would hopefully indicate this is a good thing.

[CQ SAINT]

Ross, I reckon through his own admission- unless he is that pig-headed

Would admit he’s made some mistakes with his handling of certain players

I know an ex player who was definitely not a fan - only became a quality player after Ross left.

Wouldn't be too hard to work that out, I'd question the quality though.

Only four players had 50 games under Lyon in 2012 and went on to be anything decent.
Steven Geary McEvoy and Armitage.

I guess you are good enough or you aren't.

Armo bashed himself around.
Geary captained the club
Steven fell off the perch
McEvoy went to Hawthorn and did ok for himself.

Seb Ross was in his first year.

Not many others survived or stayed.

I'm guessing there are quite a few players who improved when we started losing more games than it takes to make finals.

[B.M]

Coaches don’t control the environment- players do

Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves

They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.

The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates

[CQ SAINT]

s*** coaches make a difference too obviously

[CQ SAINT]

Coaches don’t control the environment- players do

Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves

They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.

The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates

Id say from 2002 till 2012, two coaches controlled the environment at St.Kilda.

Ross coined it the end of an era because he had a number of players GWS came after hard and he intended to trade a few of them.

Then the players started controlling the environment. It was a huge success. Lots of club legends were made.

No flags though and no finals till we traded in a bunch of old fellas and rejects.

[Killa]

The FACT is that, when Brett came across from Hawthorn by Richardson’s invitation and due to their relationship, Brett was dismayed by the lack of a development programme at St Kilda AND called it out

When Brett succeeded Richardson he turbo charged junior development also challenging our younger brigade to push aside the experienced players who were occupying Senior spots

He was assisted by Gallagher whose input included that there was an age demographic deficiency between the few senior players we had of substance and our youth, hence going to the State Leagues for the players we recruited

It was recognised as a short term fix awaiting our youth developing AFL ready bodies

Wilkie remains The rest including Young, Parker, the guy now at Essendon and others I forget have all moved on

The age demographic we sought, being more mature in age were also expected to lead standards - on field and off

A Coach is only as good as his List

St Kilda, with the retirement and losses of players from what was a very competitive side which played in Grand Finals fell away and fell away very quickly including for very specific reasons

Look at the Lists year on year and you will see the reason for the decay - and the start of the recovery to what we have now

Mind you there is still plenty to be done including with the List because there is too much in the fingers crossed category including Keeler and others (they are only kids after all and not First Round Draft Pick kids)

And Ryder was an AFL super star across his career including at St Kilda

It is a pity we did not get him years before we did

IF Keeler gets near Ryder we will be chuffed because he will be competition elite

[Jacks Back]

I hope so but he didn't look too good in the televised VFL matches I saw.

[NickyDal]

I think the impact of a coach is massively overrated

Good players play well, poor players don’t

I also don’t think coaches make players, but players certainly make coaches!!!

Pathetic post.

[nostalgicsaint]

Coaches don’t control the environment- players do

Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves

They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.

The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates

What an oversimplification of the complex dynamics of elite sports, especially regarding the roles of coaches, leadership, and team environment.

Coaches in AFL are crucial in creating the game plan and instilling the team's values and style of play. As Paul Hamilton, Assistant Coach at Adelaide Football Club, notes, a coach's philosophy is a systematic plan providing guidance and consistency, ensuring that everyone in the team works towards a common goal. Coaches in AFL have a significant impact on player enjoyment, development, retention, and recruitment, as well as in maintaining a positive environment and developing club culture. This is essential in influencing players' commitment to the team's standards and goals.

Leadership within AFL teams goes beyond just the captain or senior players. It involves setting standards for training, games, and off-field behavior, which significantly influences teammates' behavior and performance. For example, Craig McRae's philosophy at Collingwood focused on acting like winners at all times, demonstrating how a coach's vision and values can shape a team's mindset and culture.

The environment within an AFL club is a significant determinant of its success. David Parkin, an experienced AFL coach, emphasizes that the 'system' or philosophy a coach develops should include clear guidelines for consistency, trust, cooperation, understanding, and expectation. This aligns with the broader team environment and culture, which influences players' attitudes and commitment.

While players are influenced by their peers, this influence is more effective within a structured environment with clear goals and values, usually established by the coaching staff and team leaders. However, individual responsibility is also crucial. Players need to be motivated and committed to achieving the desired outcomes..

[B.M]

No

It’s a simplification that one believes a coach can ‘control’ things

He can set expectations
He can implement a game plan
He can manage assistants

But ultimately performance and adherence is up to the player’s attitude and ability


This notion that players are disciples of a coach and they will be molded in their image is very naive

[CQ SAINT]

No

It’s a simplification that one believes a coach can ‘control’ things

He can set expectations
He can implement a game plan
He can manage assistants

But ultimately performance and adherence is up to the player’s attitude and ability


This notion that players are disciples of a coach and they will be molded in their image is very naive

I think that's one perspective. Billings and Gresham would have another.

I still reckon Ball didn't enjoy his medallion all that much after the pain killers and cortisol wore off.

There was never er any chance of him going broke had he won the flag with St.Kilda. Roo has done ok for himself and he would probably like that medallion more.

[CQ SAINT]

I guess Ross set the rules for the environment and Ball told him to stick it in his trumpet. Fortius Quo Fidelius.

[B.M]

I think we want to believe in a coaches impact

1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!


Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?

[The Fireman]

I think we want to believe in a coaches impact

1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!


Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?

No doubt


Fanboy

[nostalgicsaint]

I think we want to believe in a coaches impact

1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!


Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?

Or because...

1/ they are a clear leadership role
2/ they at the very least influence the environment
3/ some clubs have consistent and sustained results and other don't.

[CQ SAINT]

I think we want to believe in a coaches impact

1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!


Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?

Do you think any other coach could have improved the list he lost 2 grand finals with, or was all because Ball and Armo didn't play?

[Vortex]

I think we want to believe in a coaches impact

1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!


Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?

Do you think any other coach could have improved the list he lost 2 grand finals with, or was all because Ball and Armo didn't play?

And Lovett not playing, he plays in 2010 and we are premiers.

[samoht]

I agree with BM.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.

Alan Jackovich is probably another good example ... he could have been anything - even thought of alongside Lockett, Dunstall.
He wasted his unbelievable talent.

His brother. Glen, was dedicated, hard-working, and got the most out of himself. The complete opposite of Alan, who was even more talented.

Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie ... they'd be champs under any coach. All credit to them. Nas, Owens, Windhager have great leaders and role models playing alongside them, regardless of coach.

[Otiman]

There are players who would get 1% improvement out of a good coach, and there are players who would get 50% improvement out of a good coach.

Some players might get a 1-10% reduction depending on the coaching style.

The numbers game that footy is, if you can get a net improvement from your team the coach is doing well.

[skeptic]

I agree with BM.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.

In fairness to Lyon… we only had him for like 6 weeks before he was sacked.

I don’t know how much that was/is on him.

Would be interested to see what others think but I always had the impression that the players led sacking on that one rather than the admin

[samoht]

But the point is Lovett only has himself to blame. It's all on him.

Tremendous ability gone to waste.

At least Essendon managed to get something out of him - enough to make us interested in him.

[saynta]

I agree with BM.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.

In fairness to Lyon… we only had him for like 6 weeks before he was sacked.

I don’t know how much that was/is on him.

Would be interested to see what others think but I always had the impression that the players led sacking on that one rather than the admin

The creep was a serial offender...a woman basher. Leopards never change their spots. The druggies are still laughing at us. We were sold a pup.

[skeptic]

I agree with BM.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.

In fairness to Lyon… we only had him for like 6 weeks before he was sacked.

I don’t know how much that was/is on him.

Would be interested to see what others think but I always had the impression that the players led sacking on that one rather than the admin

The creep was a serial offender...a woman basher. Leopards never change their spots. The druggies are still laughing at us. We were sold a pup.

No question to any of that.

What I’m wondering though… from what I remember at the time, it happened at a house party and it was a friend of a player… Gram maybe?

Given premiership prospects and the cost to get him… I always thought that perhaps the club might have suspended him and brought him back late in the season but instead he was swiftly sacked.

Not saying that was wrong… but I’ve always wondered if the players made a stand to sack him or else. Doesn’t matter but I’ve always wondered if that was the case

[saynta]

I remember that the players were really pissed off with him.

So you could be right.

[CQ SAINT]

For every Lovett that got a start there are 50 who didn't but managed to play football without the scrutiny that comes with AFL football.

My dad grew up in the days VFL clubs were local clubs and some very violent and predatory men, who became legends of the game would probably, would be in jail. The could just get away with it.

Dare I say, there are few stories from Moorabbin in the 60's and 70's that curl your toes.

I won't be repeating them but I have four older sisters who could testify to the chauvinism and sexuality predation within the club

How Lyon could be responsible for Lovett is laughable. Lovett wasnt the only bloke in that squad constantly pushing boundaries.