Champion Data Club by Club rankings 2024

[theoracle]

From the Herald Sun:

AFL: Champion Data reveals the deepest lists, with GWS, Carlton and Collingwood rated highly
The Magpies won the flag thanks to superb depth, but are they the best list in the competition? The stats gurus at Champion Data lift the lid on which club has the most contributors.
Josh Barnes
January 4, 2024 - 6:00AM News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom

Halfway through the 2023 season, few would have expected the GWS Giants or Carlton to make finals, let alone shape finals.
The two clubs got on spectacular rolls and powered through to preliminary final losses.
While both clubs have superstars — Toby Greene at the Giants and Charlie Curnow at the Blues — they also have deep lists.
Champion Data has combed through each 2023 list and picked out the players rated in the top 50 in every position to help discover the best depth.
It’s no surprise that Collingwood finished with the most players inside the top 50 in their respective position, with the Pies winning the flag in September thanks to a perfect spread of contributors.
Instead of just listing how many players made the grade, each club has been ranked by depth.
To rank all 18 clubs, points were assigned per player bracket within the top 50, with three points per top-10 player, two points for players ranked 11-30 and one point for those ranked 31-50.
For example, GWS had seven top-10 players (for 21 points), six ranked 11-30 (12 points) and nine ranked 31-50 (nine points) to equal a total of 42.
When two teams were tied, the tie-breaker came down to the team with more total players ranked inside the top 50 per position.
The depth analysis is based on 2023 lists, so retirees like Isaac Smith (rated the seventh-best mid-forward in the game) or players traded like Lachie Schultz (eighth-best general forward) remain counted to their 2023 clubs.
Only players who played at least 12 games qualified, with rankings based on ranking points.
Check out where your clubs sits in the depth charts, from the high-flyers to the cellar dwellers needing more contributors.

1. GWS GIANTS
Depth analysis points: 42
Top 10 players: 7, Top 11-30 players: 6, Top 31-50 players: 9, Total players: 22
POSITIONAL BREAKDOWN
Defenders – Top 10: 3, Top 11-30: 2, Top 31-50: 2
Midfielders – Top 10: 1, Top 11-30: 4, Top 31-50: 1
Forwards – Top 10: 3, Top 11-30: 0, Top 31-50: 6
Top 10 players: Toby Greene (3rd – gen fwd), Kieren Briggs (6th – ruck), Lachie Whitfield (9th – gen def), Sam Taylor (9th – key def), Brent Daniels (10th – gen fwd), Harry Himmelberg (10th – key def), Jesse Hogan (10th – key fwd)
You only had to watch the back end of the 2023 season and two winning finals to see how the Giants played as one.
At times, Adam Kingsley’s side appeared to all move together and have winners everywhere, and that was reflected in our depth numbers.
GWS led the entire league in players rated top-10 in their position with seven and only Collingwood had more top-50 players.
The Giants finished top on our rankings by winning the tie-breaker over Carlton, due to having more players on the top-50.
Given the growth last season, where will the Giants sit in 12 months time?
Given the growth last season, where will the Giants sit in 12 months time?

2023 Midfielder Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Marcus Bontempelli (Western Bulldogs) 129.5
2nd - Clayton Oliver (Melbourne) 122.9
3rd - Christian Petracca (Melbourne) 118.2
4th - Rory Laird (Adelaide) 116.8
5th - Zach Merrett (Essendon) 116.4

2. CARLTON
Depth analysis points: 42
Top 10: 4, 11-30: 13, 31-50: 4, Total: 21
Defenders – Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Midfielders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 7, 31-50: 2
Forwards – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 21-50: 1
Top 10 players: Charlie Curnow (1st – key fwd), Blake Acres (6th – wing), Nic Newman (6th – gen def), Jacob Weitering (7th – key def)
Many judges have the Blues with the best list in the competition and these numbers back that up.
Carlton has a great spread across the ground and even has room to grow: Sam Walsh was rated 21st among midfielders and Patrick Cripps 34th last season.
If those two play full seasons at their best, the Blues will be in incredible shape.
Carlton has the stars — Charlie Curnow, Jacob Weitering — and the role players — Blake Acres, Nic Newman — each in their respective top 10.
All fantastic signs ahead of season 2024.

3. COLLINGWOOD
Depth analysis points: 41
Top 10: 5, 11-30: 7, 31-50: 12, Total: 24
Defenders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 5
Midfielders – Top 10: 4, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 5
Forwards – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Josh Daicos (2nd – wing), Steele Sidebottom (5th – wing), Darcy Moore (6th – key def), Nick Daicos (6th – mid), Taylor Adams (9th – mid-fwd)
More than perhaps anything else, Collingwood’s premiership was built on depth.
Every player filled a role in Craig McRae’s system to a tee and no other team had has many players rated in the top 50 for their position than the Pies’ 24 – which is more than can fit into a team.
Taylor Adams (ninth, mid-forward) drops off the Magpies list, but Lachie Schultz (eighth, general forward) is a pretty good replacement next season.
If the Pies are to become a dynasty team, players like Ash Johnson (40th, key forward), Isaac Quaynor (44th, general defender) and Bobby Hill (41st, general forward) will need to become genuine stars.
Jordan De Goey was ranked 38th for midfielders so could easily vault into the top 10 next year.

4. MELBOURNE
Depth analysis points: 40
Top 10: 5, 11-30: 10, 31-50: 5, Total: 20
Defenders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 2
Midfielders – Top 10: 4, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 1
Forwards – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Clayton Oliver (2nd – mid), Christian Petracca (3rd – mid), Max Gawn (3rd – ruck), Steven May (8th – key def), Lachie Hunter (10th – wing)
Melbourne’s numbers show the strengths and weaknesses clearly.
The Dees have possibly the best top-end midfielders in the game with Clayton Oliver, Christian Petracca and Max Gawn all rated in their respective top 3.
But Jacob van Rooyen (22nd, key forward) was the only genuine key forward to earn a ranking and the firepower upfront was severely lacking.
The Demons have long had a strong defence, but only Steven May (eighth, key defender), Jake Lever (17th, key defender) and Trent Rivers (29th, general defender) made the top 30.

2023 Wing Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Errol Gulden (Sydney) 112
2nd - Josh Daicos (Collingwood) 93.3
3rd - Mason Wood (St Kilda) 91.3
4th - Nic Martin (Essendon) 88.1
5th - Steele Sidebottom (Collingwood) 87.5

5. BRISBANE LIONS
Depth analysis points: 39
Top 10: 5, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 8, Total: 21
Defenders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 2
Midfielders – Top 10: 3, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 4
Forwards – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Joe Daniher (3rd – key fwd), Harris Andrews (4th – key def), Dayne Zorko (5th – mid-fwd), Josh Dunkley (10th – mid), Zac Bailey (10th – mid-fwd)
It may surprise a tad to have Brisbane so low on these rankings, but there is plenty of growth in the numbers.
Superstars Lachie Neale (16th, midfielder) and Charlie Cameron (15th, general forward) are better than their rankings suggest and Hugh McCluggage (36th, midfielder) was marked well down on his usual output.
The Lions may have the best list in the league and are well balanced across the field.

6. ADELAIDE
Depth analysis points: 39
Top 10: 6, Top 11-30: 9, Top 31-50: 3, Total: 18
Defenders – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 3
Midfielders – Top 10: 3, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 0
Forwards – Top 10: 3, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 0
Top 10 players: Taylor Walker (2nd – key fwd), Rory Laird (4th – mid), Izak Rankine (5th – gen fwd), Ben Keays (7th, gen fwd), Jordan Dawson (8th, mid), Reilly O’Brien (9th – ruck)
Crows fans will tell you they should have made finals — if not for a certain poster — and our rankings show why.
Adelaide has six top-10 players, a figure only bettered by GWS.
Josh Rachele (11th, general forward) was just outside that top-10 and should jump in soon.
Adelaide showed it can be a deadly attacking side in 2023 but needs a boost in defence, with Josh Worrell (15th, key defender) the highest-rated backman despite only playing 12 games.
Veteran Rory Sloane fell to the 60th-ranked midfielder.

7. SYDNEY
Depth analysis points: 38
Top 10: 3, Top 11-30 11, Top 31-50: 7, Total: 21
Defenders – Top 10: 1, Top 11-30: 3, Top 31-50: 2
Midfielders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 5, 31-50: 3
Forwards – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Errol Gulden (1st – wing), Isaac Heeney (4th – gen fwd), Jake Lloyd (8th – gen def)
The Swans are waiting on a key forward to pop.
Logan McDonald (27th), Lance Franklin (31st) and Joel Amartey (34th) were only mid-table for key forwards this year, while Hayden McLean was classified as a ruck and ranked 19th.
Franklin has retired, but as the other young forwards continue to grow they will have plenty of support across the field, including from a dominant Errol Gulden on the wing.
Where will Brodie Grundy land in these rankings by season’s end now he is the No. 1 ruck again?

2023 Midfielder-forward Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Jack Macrae (Western Bulldogs) 100
2nd - Shai Bolton (Richmond) 96.7
3rd - Caleb Daniel (Western Bulldogs) 92.9
4th - Sam Flanders (Gold Coast) 88.6
5th - Dayne Zorko (Brisbane Lions) 82.8

8. RICHMOND
Depth analysis points: 38
Top 10: 4, 11-30: 11, 31-50: 4, Total: 19
Defenders – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 3
Midfielders – Top 10: 2, 11-30: 7, 31-50: 1
Forwards – Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 0
Top 10 players: Dustin Martin (1st – gen fwd), Shai Bolton (2nd – mid-fwd), Jayden Short (7th, gen def), Toby Nankervis (7th, gen def)
Richmond still has top-level punch, with 10 players in the top 20 for their position.
The question marks begin after that.
Has Dion Prestia (53rd, midfielder) passed his peak?
Can Jacob Hopper (58th, midfielder) add some punch to the midfield?
Is Dylan Grimes (86th, general defender) in his final year?
If those players — and a few youngsters — lift, Richmond can play finals in 2024.
If not, star talents like Dustin Martin and Shai Bolton will be stuck mid-table.

9. WESTERN BULLDOGS
Depth analysis points: 38
Top 10: 6, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 4, Total: 18
Defenders – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 2
Midfielders – Top 10: 6, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Forwards – Top 10: 0, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Top 10 players: Marcus Bontempelli (1st – mid), Jack Macrae (1st – mid-fwd), Tim English (1st – ruck), Caleb Daniel (3rd – mid-fwd), Bailey Smith (6th, mid-fwd), Tom Liberatore (7th, mid)
Bulldogs CEO Ameet Bains said this year the Dogs believed they have a top-four calibre list.
But do they really?
Sure, there is top-tier talent with No. 1 rankings for Marcus Bontempelli (midfielder), Tim English (ruck) and, surprisingly, Jack Macrae (mid-forward).
But after that things fall away pretty quickly.
Only three teams had less players rated in the top 50 and it may not be reasonable to expect Rhylee West, Taylor Duryea, Arthur Jones or Lachie McNeil to jump into the top 50 next year.
Bailey Smith was ranked sixth for mid-forwards and will drop out of the rankings next year after his knee injury.
The Dogs have talent but not quite the depth needed to win games week-in, week-out.

2023 General Defender Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Tom Stewart (Geelong) 113.6
2nd - Luke Ryan (Fremantle) 109.5
3rd - Dan Houston (Port Adelaide) 107.4
4th - Jack Sinclair (St Kilda) 105.9
5th - Harry Sheezel (North Melbourne) 99.5

10. HAWTHORN
Depth analysis points: 36
Top 10: 3, 11-30: 10, 31-50: 7, Total: 20
Defenders: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 3
Midfielders: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 6, 31-50: 3
Forwards: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Top 10 players: James Sicily (1st – key def), Dylan Moore (2nd – gen fwd), Karl Amon (7th – wing)
A huge bump for the Hawks after finishing 16th on the ladder this year.
Hawthorn has a great spread of top 50 players across the field and four of their best on-ballers didn’t rate as highly as expected.
Jai Newcombe (29th, midfielder), Will Day (32nd, midfielder), James Worpel (43rd, midfielder) and Conor Nash (49th, midfielder) were not loved by ranking points, but had a strong year as a quartet.
Expect improvement from those four and if the Hawks can add more cream on top, they will really be cooking with gas in this list build.

11. FREMANTLE
Depth analysis points: 36
Top 10: 6, 11-30: 6, 31-50: 6, Total: 18
Defenders: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 1
Midfielders: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2
Forwards: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 3
Top 10 players: Luke Ryan (2nd – gen def), Brennan Cox (5th – key def), Sean Darcy (5th – ruck), Lachie Schultz (8th – gen fwd), Luke Jackson (8th – ruck), Hayden Young (10th – gen def)
Fremantle stalled last year and has now lost its best forward, with Lachie Schultz (eighth, general forward) traded to Collingwood in October.
Sam Switkowski (25th, general forward) was the next best attacker, but Jye Amiss (36th, key forward) should rise up these rankings.
Both Luke Jackson (eighth, ruck) and Sean Darcy (fifth, ruck) rated highly for the same position, while Caleb Serong (13th, midfielder) and Andrew Brayshaw (14th, midfielder) missed the top 10.
The Dockers need more depth and they probably need Serong and Brayshaw to nudge the top-five to be a big improver next year.

2023 Ruck Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Tim English (Western Bulldogs) 128
2nd - Rowan Marshall (St Kilda) 116.2
3rd - Max Gawn (Melbourne) 106.2
4th - Jarrod Witts (Gold Coast) 106.1
5th - Sean Darcy (Fremantle) 105.5

12. GEELONG
Depth analysis points: 35
Top 10: 6, 11-30: 5, 31-50: 7, Total: 18
Defenders: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 3
Midfielders: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Forwards: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Tom Stewart (1st – gen def), Jeremy Cameron (5th – key fwd), Gryan Miers (6th – gen fwd), Isaac Smith (7th – mid-fwd), Max Holmes (8th – wing), Tom Hawkins (9th – key fwd)
Surprisingly, Geelong had nearly identical numbers last year, with 18 players rated in the top 50 and six top 10s.
A number of players tumbled down the rankings, such as general forwards Tyson Stengle (rated fifth in 2022 and 54th in 2023) and Brad Close (fourth to 29th).The Cats were praised for nabbing Ollie Henry (47th, general forward), Tanner Bruhn (67th, midfielder) and Jack Bowes (71st, general defender) during the 2022 trade period.
However, the trio didn’t add much in terms of rankings points.
It is those players in the younger cohort of the list that will need to drive the club forward.

13. ESSENDON
Depth analysis points: 35
Top 10: 5, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 4, Total: 17
Defenders: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 1
Midfielders: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 0
Forwards: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 0, 31-50: 3
Top 10 players: Jordan Ridley (2nd – key def), Nic Martin (4th – wing), Zach Merrett (5th – mid), Jye Caldwell (8th, mid-fwd), Kyle Langford (8th, key fwd)
Brad Scott’s team has a pretty solid midfield in place — with Nic Martin (fourth, wing), Zach Merrett (fifth, midfield) and the surprising Jye Caldwell (eighth, mid-forward).
Ben McKay is planned to come in and help the excellent Jordan Ridley, but McKay only ranked the 31st best key defender while at North Melbourne last year.
Up forward is the other hole, with Peter Wright not playing enough games to qualify last year and Kyle Langford (eighth, key forward) the only top-30 attacker.
There are some building blocks in place here.

2023 Key Defender Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - James Sicily (Hawthorn) 114.2
2nd - Jordan Ridley (Essendon) 94.9
3rd - Callum Wilkie (St Kilda) 93
4th - Harris Andrews (Brisbane Lions) 88.7
5th - Brennan Cox (Fremantle) 87.8

14. PORT ADELAIDE
Depth analysis points: 33
Top 10: 3, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 8, Total: 19
Defenders: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 4
Midfielders: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2
Forwards: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Top 10 players: Dan Houston (3rd – gen def), Charlie Dixon (4th – key fwd), Jeremy Finlayson (6th – key fwd)
Is Port Adelaide the team that won 13 games in a row and looked like a premiership contender or the team that got swept aside to a straight-sets finals exit?
These numbers suggest Ken Hinkley’s men are closer to the latter.
Zak Butters (11th, midfielder) and Connor Rozee (20th, midfielder) have better reputations than their rankings, while Jeremy Finlayson (sixth, key forward) is the opposite.
The Power midfield is probably another year or two away — Jason Horne-Francis was ranked 59th among midfielders and Ollie Wines 54th.
If their weapons become true top-10 players, the Power will be contenders.
But this list has some holes that need to be plugged, with their bevy of recruits not rating highly either.

15. ST KILDA
Depth analysis points: 32
Top 10: 5, 11-30: 5, 31-50: 7, Total: 17
Defenders: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Midfielders: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 3
Forwards: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 3
Top 10 players: Rowan Marshall (2nd – ruck), Mason Wood (3rd – wing), Callum Wilkie (3rd – key def), Jack Sinclair (4th – gen def), Mitch Owens (7th – key fwd)
Much like Port Adelaide, St Kilda outperformed its rankings on the field in a credit to the players and coaches.
Not many outside of the Saints faithful would have had Ross Lyon’s team as one of the top-eight in the league last season.
But they plugged away all year and earned a finals berth despite having just 10 players ranked in the top 30 — the equal lowest in the league.
Max King didn’t qualify for this list given his time sidelined with injury last season, but Mitch Owens (seventh, key forward) and Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera (25th, general defender) both had super campaigns.
St Kilda will need more from the likes of Jack Steele (45th, midfielder) and Brad Crouch (39th, midfielder), but the growth in this team will come from the youngsters.

2023 Key forward Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Charlie Curnow (Carlton) 93
2nd - Taylor Walker (Adelaide) 89.6
3rd - Joe Daniher (Brisbane Lions) 84.2
4th - Charlie Dixon (Port Adelaide) 83
5th - Jeremy Cameron (Geelong) 82.7

16. GOLD COAST
Depth analysis points: 31
Top 10: 4, 11-30: 6, 31-50: 7, Total: 17
Defenders: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Midfielders: Top 10: 3, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 2
Forwards: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 1, 31-50: 4
Top 10 players: Sam Flanders (4th – mid-fwd), Jarrod Witts (4th – ruck), Ben Ainsworth (9th – gen fwd), Brandon Ellis (9th – wing)
The Suns just didn’t have enough contributors last year.
Gold Coast tied with St Kilda for the least amount of top-30 players, with 10, and only North Melbourne had fewer top-50 players.
It wasn’t just the young players to blame, as Rory Atkins (52nd, general defender), David Swallow (61st, midfielder) and Ben Long (84th, general defender) didn’t make enough impact.
Injury had some effect, but top-line players like Matt Rowell (25th, midfielder), Touk Miller (31st, midfielder) and Ben King (32nd, key forward) also didn’t add enough so will need to lift in 2024.
Damien Hardwick’s team should be eyeing a finals spot but a whole heap of improvement will have to come to get there.

17. WEST COAST
Depth analysis points: 30
Top 10: 0, 11-30: 12, 31-50: 6, Total: 18
Defenders: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 4, 31-50: 2
Midfielders: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 5, 31-50: 3
Forwards: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 1
Top 10 players: Nil
Every club had at least three players rated top 10 for their position — except West Coast which had none.
It’s a torrid tale for the Eagles.
Even those who were fit and experienced didn’t deliver, with Andrew Gaff (22nd, wing), Tim Kelly (24th, midfielder) and Jack Darling (24th, key forward) not at the level needed.
The Eagles had the most players ranked 11-30 and hope to see some of those players make a leap, but their second-highest ranked player was the retired Shannon Hurn (13th, general defender).
Basically, the Eagles had no stars and a lot of injuries in 2023.
Not a good combination.

2023 General forward Top 5
Rank - Player SuperCoach ranking points
1st - Dustin Martin (Richmond) 94.4
2nd - Dylan Moore (Hawthorn) 90.9
3rd - Toby Greene (GWS Giants) 90.9
4th - Isaac Heeney (Sydney) 84.1
5th - Izak Rankine (Adelaide) 82.6

18. NORTH MELBOURNE
Depth analysis points: 30
Top 10: 3, 11-30: 8, 31-50: 5, Total: 16
Defenders: Top 10: 1, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Midfielders: Top 10: 2, 11-30: 3, 31-50: 2
Forwards: Top 10: 0, 11-30: 2, 31-50: 1
Top 10 players: Harry Sheezel (5th – gen def), Luke Davies-Uniacke (9th – mid), Todd Goldstein (10th – ruck)
It’s probably not a surprise to see the Roos come in last.
No club had less players in the top-50, so lets look at who could make that grade in 2024.
Jy Simpkin (57th, midfielder), Will Phillips (64th, midfielder), Jaidyn Stephenson (73rd, general forward) and Paul Curtis (77th, general forward) can all lift.
Tarryn Thomas ranked 42nd for midfielders and needs to rise, while Todd Goldstein (10th, ruck) was one of the highest at the Roos and he is now gone.
The good news is Harry Sheezel (fifth, general defender) and Luke Davies-Uniacke (ninth, midfielder) should both keep getting better.
The Roos will continue to lose plenty of games in 2024 but will hope their young players can soon develop into top-10 calibre contributors.

[B.M]

That’s not great reading

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

Laughable. Typical of the MSM. Always punching down on us. None of them picked us to make the 8 last year. They are all hoping we slide this year.

All it demonstrates is what a great effort it was last year. Crouch ranked 39th? Rubbish. Steele ranked 45th is because injuries derailed his year.

They don't take the massive injury list into account. Pfft, is all I can say. Let's wait for the real stuff to start.

[Yorkeys]

Suggests Adelaide need a new coach and our guy is a genius.

[CQ SAINT]

Champion data present more questions than answers.

Hence the money spinning debate and pay to 'play' revenue that it generates.

Just total the team scores and compare those if you are comparing lists.

That makes sense.

If we aren't in the top 8, it proves how stupid the whole thing is.

That's what supercoach enables.

Coaches decide who leads and who doesn't play.

Based on previous evidence Kings' Billings' Jones', Coffield's and McKenzies injuries were probable and were covered.

It was fairly probable that Owens, Windhager, Sharman, NWM, Clark, Byrnes Hayes and Hotton would improve and make progress.

Winghagers start and Hayes and Hotton feel foul of injury. Clark co ti ied to be battered by his courage, Gresham Billings Coffield and Mackenzie were let go.

We let false hope go.

Phillipou and Caminiti had excellent first year opportunities and didn't disappoint.

We just proved to some usually consistent supercoach performers, like Gresham Billings, King, Membrey and Steele, we can still win games without you being dominant, if we worked hard and follow plans.

We have a very good defence. Dougal and Battle are solid and consistently ranked and effective.

We have a solid senior core.

Steele Wilkie Marshall Wood Sinclair Crouch Hill Webster Howard Battle and Ross and Cordy (if these two are depth, we are ok)

You can't knock our back 7.

Question marks remain over Clark Jones Hayes Membrey and Paton.

I'm not overly concerned with article to be honest, last years looked a lot worse after our fade in 2022.

[NickyDal]

That’s not great reading

Actually that is great reading IMHO. It just proves that our strength is playing as a team and not individual brilliance.

A champion team will always beat a team of champions.

[B.M]

Name a champion team that doesn’t have champions?

90s Bulls? Hang on???

We have very few match winning stars
Which is why we won’t be a contender

[Sanctorum]

Champion Data stats the way they are related in this article are pretty meaningless as it is based on individual players rather than the performance of the team in 2023.

St Kilda having achieved the comp's best defensive system in 2023 is a far more important guide to how our team will perfom in 2024.

This will get even better next year.

Improve conversion ratios in the forward 50 and St Kilda will seriously challenge for a top 4 spot.

[samoht]

Champion data focussed and heavily weighted their rating on the top end players, but I think what's being overlooked is that St Kilda bats lower than most other teams.
Stocker for instance, a skilled and very handy player being left out of games and considered one of our fringe players.
Billings not being considered at all for selection.
That says a lot.

Our overall strength more than makes up for lack of star power, and I think we've recruited well.
Plus, our youngsters will move into higher rankings ... champion data is not forward-looking.

So I expect a top 4 finish.

[King Max]

Yet another analysis that says we over performed.
Because saying they underestimated us is an admission that they got it wrong.

[B.M]

Not really

It just says CD Stats are heavily weighted towards offensive output

And offensively we were ordinary

Defensively we were the best team, which got us into the top 6

But we don’t have an effective or efficient forward line
And we don’t have a game breaking mid or 2 that dominate games and break them open


Premiers
2023 Collingwood
DeGoey/Daicos
2022 Geelong
Dangerfield/Guthrie
2021 Melbourne
Petracca/Oliver
2017/2019/2020 Richmond
Martin/Cotchin
2018 WCE
Shuey/Yeo
2016 Bulldogs
Bontempelli/Liberatore

These are the big points scorers

[Otiman]

Yet another analysis that says we over performed.
Because saying they underestimated us is an admission that they got it wrong.

There's more to this.

Our wins/losses defy the statistics, we are an outlier.

Teams are playing the champion data stats like they're the bible. That is the main source of data, especially with the soft cap in place.

Ross and Co. are trying to circumvent this and win games of footy and hopefully premierships by defying the current status quo on stats.

Collingwood have done this (skewed stats to win/loss) by focusing on their game closeouts and winning every close one they were in. So the first 3Q stats don't really matter.

It's a ballsy move but could well land a premiership and rewrite the stat weightings.

[B.M]

Stats are very import for offensive output

They don’t measure defensive footy effectively though

Ross is a very good coach of players when they don’t have the footy.
Supporters watch the ball, watch players get the ball, how they get the ball etc. Coaches, well good ones like Ross look at what players do when they DONT have the ball. It’s why his teams are hard to score against.
Reality is, at any one time in a game, 1 out of 36 players can have the ball. What are the 35 others doing? Particularly the other 18 of the team without the ball doing?!

Ross is the master of teaching a team to defend

Then rely on a simple forward system of a power forward (Reiwoldt, Pavlich) a small forward (Milne Ballentyne) and pressure forwards to hold it in F50

Even his forwards are important defenders

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

We didn't over-perform or play "above ourselves". You can only play to the best of your ability. Full credit to RTB and the coaching team for squeezing the best effort from what was an injury-riddled list for most of the season.

IMHO, I agree with BM about a team needing champions to attain the ultimate. Especially at the elite level.

I played a couple of hundred games (only in the ammos) and then coached for three years when I finished, and my experience taught me what a massive difference even the presence or absence of 1 or 2 of your best players can make. At my level, you always made sure you kept your "stars" happy and fit.

Either the Champion Data doesn't capture information correctly, almost certainly so, or their analysts are lazy or ignorant, probably both. How you can rate a list that finished 7th with the injury list it had, as the 15th-best list in the competition is laughable.

Our only loss of any consequence, list-wise, is Gresham, whose trading out is more than balanced out by the acquisition of Henry and Dow.

At the end of the season, I'm confident the team will finish 6th or even better, depending on injuries to ourselves and other teams. We have a group of talented group of youngsters who will ensure we improve on last year.

[Big Max]

The sats are fair enough, but their formula is heavily weighted to 'top 10' players, with less emphasis on team defense.

We all know that St Kilda lacks a couple of 'quality mids', and our forward line rates very poorly for effectiveness.

[NickyDal]

Name a champion team that doesn’t have champions?

90s Bulls? Hang on???

We have very few match winning stars
Which is why we won’t be a contender

I didn't say a champion team doesn't have champion players in it.

[nostalgicsaint]

This is the most interesting part to me- albeit only based on output last year.

Defenders:
Top 10: 2,
11-30: 3,
31-50: 1

Midfielders:
Top 10: 2,
11-30: 1,
31-50: 3

Forwards:
Top 10: 1,
11-30: 1,
31-50: 3


It's not surprising reading but you can see why we have prioritised midfielders in Dow and Henry.

Forward line hopefully sorted through King and Membrey playing full seasons.


Our total Top 50 players- 7 less than the pies.

[NickyDal]

This is the most interesting part to me- albeit only based on output last year.

Defenders:
Top 10: 2,
11-30: 3,
31-50: 1

Midfielders:
Top 10: 2,
11-30: 1,
31-50: 3

Forwards:
Top 10: 1,
11-30: 1,
31-50: 3


It's not surprising reading but you can see why we have prioritised midfielders in Dow and Henry.

Forward line hopefully sorted through King and Membrey playing full seasons.


Our total Top 50 players- 7 less than the pies.

Ignore Champion Data. They are just inventing new ways to make money. Our coaches are teaching us how to play as a team which is far more important than having 4 or 5 "A" graders.

[B.M]

History tells us

You need at least half a dozen A Grade players to contend

You do not make it to the top 4 otherwise

[NickyDal]

History tells us

You need at least half a dozen A Grade players to contend

You do not make it to the top 4 otherwise

False, you need a great team that are well coached.

[CQ SAINT]

Player rankings of 2023 top 8 teams/ top 100
Left is their overall ranking, to the right is there top 100 2023 finals teams.
Melb St.Kilda

1 Petracca MID 1
12. Sinclair DEF/MID 8
6 Oliver MID 4
29. Marshall RUCK 15
26 Gawn RUCK 14
49. Owens UTILITY 27
57 May DEF 31
63. Steele MID 35
67 Viney MID 39
64. Wilkie DEF 36
83 Lever DEF 45
116. Crouch MID 55
97 Kickett FWD 51
125. Wood UTILITY 60
124 Brayshaw MID 59
160. Higgins FWD 80
139 Grundy RUCK 69
188. Butler FWD 89
144 Chandler FWD 71
208. NWM DEF/MID 99

Steele and crouch will have better seasons
Owens is on an upward trend.
Marshal will pass Gawn this year, as his work rate stabilises at elite, and Gawn will begin to drop off.
King will join the list at the pointy end.

There's a lot of young guys improving rapidly.

Oliver might end up a basket case.

I'm a bit worried about Billings but we are not that far away from them.

If things go right and we can defend effectively at Marvel will increasing our offensive output, we could surprise most punters.

[CQ SAINT]

We need Battle to take the next level
Dougal to come back to best form
Phillipou to announce himself
Windy to claim his spot
3 a game from the King would be nice.

[Yorkeys]

Always thought Champion data suffered from a) having very little in the way of comparative qualitative measurements and b) limited predictive use over the intuition of a reasonably informed fan.

Quality top sides seem to have at least one real hard nut/composed guy on each line. One reason I suspect our forward line is poor collectively is the lack of an absolute will to win warrior in that area (although maybe Max when fit and Mitchito when there). Our other groups each have a couple at least, I think. Hard to measure that quality.

[Scollop]

Steele and crouch will have better seasons

I'd say Steele could challenge Sincs if he remains injury free in 2024. I think Crouch may have already plateaued.

We all know you can't compare their output for 2023 when Crouch played every game last year and had more of a chance to gain and maintain his form...while our captain suffered a broken collarbone and missed 3 games... should have missed double that

I reckon Steele was rushed back way too early. He looked hampered. He was. He took 2-3 weeks to get back to playing the way he did pre injury.

We know both had knee or ankle niggles throughout but that's no different to most players in the league.

You'd think with Crouch not missing any games due to serious injury, plus the fact that he was the highest possession getter most weeks, he should have easily earnt top 5 in the Trevor Barker. But he didn't!

Sincs, RoMa and Wilkie were top 3. Owens and NWM also gained more votes overall for the year by the coaches...and to me that indicates several players (in our top 10 in the TBM) apart from Crouch are seen as being more influential to the team's fortunes.

And then... there's their respective performances in the final

[NickyDal]

Steele and crouch will have better seasons

I'd say Steele could challenge Sincs if he remains injury free in 2024. I think Crouch may have already plateaued.

We all know you can't compare their output for 2023 when Crouch played every game last year and had more of a chance to gain and maintain his form...while our captain suffered a broken collarbone and missed 3 games... should have missed double that

I reckon Steele was rushed back way too early. He looked hampered. He was. He took 2-3 weeks to get back to playing the way he did pre injury.

We know both had knee or ankle niggles throughout but that's no different to most players in the league.

You'd think with Crouch not missing any games due to serious injury, plus the fact that he was the highest possession getter most weeks, he should have easily earnt top 5 in the Trevor Barker. But he didn't!

Sincs, RoMa and Wilkie were top 3. Owens and NWM also gained more votes overall for the year by the coaches...and to me that indicates several players (in our top 10 in the TBM) apart from Crouch are seen as being more influential to the team's fortunes.

And then... there's their respective performances in the final

We need to move away from our dependence on the oldies. Especially in the midfield. Give the midfield responsibilities to Owens, Windhager, Philipou, Dow and Henry. Ross, Steele, Crouch, Jones and Sinclair should all rotate through but spend more time in the forward/back line. This is how you fast track the youngsters/team. Will Lyon do this? I hope so but I doubt it. Time will tell...