Two off-seasons that will define the next few years

[cwrcyn]

List changes have been pretty high in 2022 and 2023. We have finally gone back to the draft and moved on some senior players, some through retirement and trade. I'm excited by the changes and view them as a long awaited positive change in direction.


Out/In

Ryder/Keeler & Caminiti
Long/Wanganeen-Milera
Kent/McLennan
Geary/Stocker
Joyce/Cordy
Hannebery/Hotton
Lienert/Hayes
Adams/Van Es
Billings/Wilson
Bytel/Dow
Coffield/Bonner
Connelly/O'Connell
Gresham/Collard & Phillipou
Highmore/Hastie
McKenzie/Henry
Peris/Garcia

Realistically, we have lost nothing with the departures of Geary (body cooked) Kent (cooked) Joyce (C Grade), Hannebery (cooked), Adams (not up to the standard) Connelly (fringe player lacking physical strength), Peris (quick forward with little football nous) Bytel (slow midfielder with mediocre foot skills in an already slow midfield). Lienert (good kick but insufficient defensive game), Highmore (good intercept mark but not good one on one and mediocre foot skills)

Ryder was a huge loss but time caught up with him
Billings was injury riddled and his lack of speed and acceleration was a negative. When fit, still a reasonable AFL footballer
McKenzie was terribly unfortunate. Quick and courageous with plenty of gut running but his body had given up on him. A big loss
Coffield is talented and quick, with some questions over his willingness to put his body on the line. Still a loss
Gresham is highly talented and will play some good football for Essendon. The downside is his propensity to not look where he is kicking ball, burning team mates further up the ground. This was the nail in his coffin at St Kilda

Overall, I don't think we have lost a great deal with the 16 players who have left. Ryder, the best of the bunch, was only ever a very short term fix.

I'm sure when we look back on this period we will see the gains will easily outweigh the losses and we'll be glad for going to the draft in 2022 and 2023

[cwrcyn]

I forgot Schoenmaker who you could put up against Adams

[B.M]

I’m going to shoot Bambi here


I think Ryder retiring was a net gain

He was a good ruckman, who played in front of a better ruckman.

While number 1 rucking
Marshall 2 x Runner Up B&F and in AA Squad

Ryder 7th in the B&F

While Ryder was playing ruck Marshall had average seasons and was largely in effective

[B.M]

Ryder was a good player, but it was like recruiting Dunstall when you have Lockett. One is then played out of position. Better off getting a gun for a required position

In those years if we had a player that was as good as Ryder but a key defender or key forward or inside midfielder we’d have been better

[nostalgicsaint]

I’m going to shoot Bambi here


I think Ryder retiring was a net gain

He was a good ruckman, who played in front of a better ruckman.

While number 1 rucking
Marshall 2 x Runner Up B&F and in AA Squad

Ryder 7th in the B&F

While Ryder was playing ruck Marshall had average seasons and was largely in effective

Agree it was a good thing- this is why he was pushed to do so.

Him joining was still a positive and whilst it is impossible to prove I suspect Marshall is a better ruckman for having played with Ryder.

[B.M]

Marshall would have had the experience of playing 3 more years as a number 1 ruckman

Watching Ryder doesn’t make him better

He and Ryder were very different players - Ryder jumps and Marshall wrestles

[CQ SAINT]

Marshall got to train against the type of ruck he can't beat when Paddy came. An athletic one who can leap. He has to even up with clearance work and defence.

Port thought he was finished, he nearly got us into a grandfinal and Marshall's around the ground rucking, improved out of sight.

He bulked up, strengthen up and then ran it off. Now he is better.

When he first rucked at 23, he was a surprise and was just really athletic and had endurance and was very strong at ground level but got ragged and over powered in stoppage ruck.

When he started to get his hands to the ball in ruck contest, it was because he was stronger in 20.

Chb or not. He is gonna go back and help Wilkie and follow the ball out a kick behind.

If we winning clearance, he may push to half forward.

Paddy was AA in 2017 at 29. They recruites Ladhams and Marshall after 2018.

We stole Lade (2x AA) in 2018 and Paddy in 20.

In 2019, Marshall was outstanding but he was rather sore and worked through the next year with niggles all year. In 21 he managed 13 games.

At 32 Paddy was inspirational.

Marshall is the better ruck now. He wasn't then. He was the better athlete by 10 years.

[B.M]

I’m not saying Paddy wasn’t a good ruckman - clearly he was


I’m saying he stalled the development of Marshall who was perhaps a better ruckman anyway.

If you think hit outs are overrated as most do

Marshall had far greater output

[CQ SAINT]

I was a 184 ruckman and CHF BM at about 100kg.

Everyone in the midfield knew I was going to leap early. You had to be able to outleap me to get any control and then I would land on them.

I didn't win even 50% of the taps, but the other ruck was out of the game andcmy mid could attack, whether I got the tip or not.

At throw ins, I usually let taller blokes take the giants, who were usually skinny and all arms and legs and I smashed clearance.

I was a back up ruck to an athletic beanpole, nicknamed spider and usually started games with him at FF. BY half time I was knackered and sat at CHF taking marks.

My skinny mate was still fresh and usually dominated.

I know the game has changed but the ruck contest never will, hopefully.

[skeptic]

I’m not saying Paddy wasn’t a good ruckman - clearly he was


I’m saying he stalled the development of Marshall who was perhaps a better ruckman anyway.

If you think hit outs are overrated as most do

Marshall had far greater output

I think you’re correct on all points.

What’s missing from this argument is that Ryder could sit in the forward line and was a decent forward. Took quite a few big marks (figuratively speaking) and had a knack for some clutch goals too.

He also gave us the benefit of at times quelling opposition run ons with the odd very favourable tap to us against the run of play.

To be clear, I don’t want to overstate the significance of that as he didn’t that many games.

The point here however is that IMO, the challenge isn’t one stifling the other…
We should have been able to work out a way in which they both flourish. That’s the missing ingredient.

[CQ SAINT]

I’m not saying Paddy wasn’t a good ruckman - clearly he was


I’m saying he stalled the development of Marshall who was perhaps a better ruckman anyway.

If you think hit outs are overrated as most do

Marshall had far greater output

I think you’re correct on all points.

What’s missing from this argument is that Ryder could sit in the forward line and was a decent forward. Took quite a few big marks (figuratively speaking) and had a knack for some clutch goals too.

He also gave us the benefit of at times quelling opposition run ons with the odd very favourable tap to us against the run of play.

To be clear, I don’t want to overstate the significance of that as he didn’t that many games.

The point here however is that IMO, the challenge isn’t one stifling the other…
We should have been able to work out a way in which they both flourish. That’s the missing ingredient.

Thats true.

When I pointed out how defensive Marshall was, I thought your point about Paddy was obvious.

Marshall rebounds and plays behind the ball, until we get full control. He pops up at that 45-55m range, just out of his sweet spot with a full kicking action.

His field disposal is good.

Paddy went forward and applied control of the ruck work. He got plenty of clearances too.
His skills are excellent, though he wasn't a huge kick. His job was to link, not rebound or rush clearances. But he could do both of those skills too.

[B.M]

Ryder playing with Marshall 2020-2022. - Career numbers in brackets.
Interesting that all Marshall’s numbers except goals were down.
If you look at Marshall in the seasons either side of that 2019 & 2023 they are well down while paired. Fair to say Rowan thrives on being the number 1 ruckman

Ryder
38 (281) Games
24 (20) Hit Outs
8.6 (11.1) Possessions
2.6 (3.7) Marks
0.7 (0.7) Goals
2.4 (2.8) Tackles
2.2 (2.2) Clearances

Marshall
53 (110) Games
18.9 (21.2) Hit Outs
15.2 (16.6) Possessions
4.6 (4.8) Marks
0.6 (0.5) Goals
2.8 (3.3) Tackles
2.9 (3.6) Clearances

[B.M]

Most valuable stats for a ruckman imo

1-Contested Marks
2-Possessions
3-Clearances
4- Effective Hit Outs
5-Goals
6-Tackles

In that order

[realdeal]

I think it was one of those situations where it might not have been always as good for Marshall but having Ryder was better for the team...

You'd also think those years playing alongside Ryder taught Marshall a thing or two..

[B.M]

Not so sure???

I don’t buy the learning from others thing

Imo you learn best by playing- you can’t buy experience


Ryder was a good centre square ruckman far better than Marshall at that aspect of rucking. But really, CS rucking happens about 25-30 times a game. The very elite win 70% of those. And the very elite average about 20-25% of their hit outs being effective

So that equates to about 6-8 effective centre square taps a game - which may translate into 2-3 goals at best

For me, having an extra ball winning mid, having a guy take contested grabs and winning clearances is more important

Marshall dominates those areas and is elite for ruckman in those key areas.

Looking at the pure numbers - from a playing pov Marshall is the better player. By a margin.

[CQ SAINT]

Ryder playing with Marshall 2020-2022. - Career numbers in brackets.
Interesting that all Marshall’s numbers except goals were down.
If you look at Marshall in the seasons either side of that 2019 & 2023 they are well down while paired. Fair to say Rowan thrives on being the number 1 ruckman

Ryder
38 (281) Games
24 (20) Hit Outs
8.6 (11.1) Possessions
2.6 (3.7) Marks
0.7 (0.7) Goals
2.4 (2.8) Tackles
2.2 (2.2) Clearances

Marshall
53 (110) Games
18.9 (21.2) Hit Outs
15.2 (16.6) Possessions
4.6 (4.8) Marks
0.6 (0.5) Goals
2.8 (3.3) Tackles
2.9 (3.6) Clearances

Mart.

If you are going to track develop try this.

Marshall was discovered in the ruck through necessity and should have won the best and fairest. They wanted more goals but found a ruck.

I'm not gonna do it for you but you should look at each year in isolation, from a team structure position.

I'll agree he his top 6 ruckman in the league and for his skill set was worthy of the squad for AA this year. How many rucks were picked?

Ok. I will do it.

Year G B K H D M T HO

2019 0.9 0.4 9.1 7.8 17.7 4.1 3.4 28.4 great standard to start with.

Name Games Total
1 T. Membrey 22 44
2 J. Bruce 22 36
3 M. Parker 17 16
4 J. Gresham 19 15
5 B. Long 16 14
6 J. Billings 22 13
6 J. Lonie 13 13
8 D. Kent 13 12
9 N. Hind 11 11
10 R. Marshall 20 8
11 B. Acres 19 6
TOTAL 188 in 22 games

Great year
Discovered by mistake,
Prepared as a ruck/forward for 2 years at the level and went foward often.
Got Brownlow votes
Should have been B&F
We expected King to play in 2020
Bruce left
Paddy Howard and Butler came in.

2020 0.6 0.5 10.1 3.8 14.0 4.3 2.1 14.5 add 25% for COVID TAX
0.7 0.6 12.6 4.9 17.5 6.0 2.6 18.1 look up - improved in all facets

We made finals. Should really have gone further but injuries and babies.

Rank Name Games Total
1 D. Butler 19 29
2 M.King 18 22
3 T..Membrey 18 20
4 R. Marshall 19 13
5 J. Battle 14 12
5 J. Lonie 13 12
7 J. Billings 19 11
7 J. Steele 19 11
9 P. Ryder 14 10
9 D. Kent 15 10
11 J. Gresham 11 7

TOTAL 177 add covid tax 25%
226 in 19 games

Great year.
Marshall ruck at least 50%. His ruck work didn't slide at 50% he'd be at 36 taps.
Got more Brownlow votes than last year.
He improved in ever other aspect.

2021 0.6 0.3 10.5 5.0 15.6 4.8 3.0 18.5

Only managed 13 games due to foot and w as clearly hampered
The work load took its toll.
Paddy missed a few games too.
Should I go on?

Coaches matter.
So does development and mentoring
G B K H D M Tk HO
2022 0.4 0.3 10.3 5.6 16.0 4.6 3.1 23.0

Recovering well.
Still improving and developing,
Id suggest mostly in stamina preparation and recovery.

G B K H D M T HO
2023 0.3 0.3 13.1 7.6 20.6 5.3 4.8 27.0
2019 0.9 0.4 9.1 7.8 17.7 4.1 3.4 28.4


I just can't see your point. I think you are skimming over relative facts and assuming another.

Coaching matters
Good coaching improves whole teams
Great players need to overcome injuries and build stamina properly.
That how a 19 year old like Paddy can play 283 games.

Marshall has 110 and he is the better ruck? Seriously.-Contested Marks
2-Possessions
3-Clearances
4- Effective Hit Outs
5-Goals
6-Tackles

Sound like the qualities of a defending rebounder to me.

I'd replace

3. contested possesion
4. tackles.

Perfect

[realdeal]

I dont disagree, Mnarshall is a gun, i dont think anyone has questioned who was the better player.

For this discussion maybe we need to look at what the Ryder/Marshall tandem offered compared to the Marshall/?? tandem.

When Ryder played well, St.kilda played well, missing the Richmond final in 2020 really hurt the team..

[CQ SAINT]

I dont disagree, Mnarshall is a gun, i dont think anyone has questioned who was the better player.

For this discussion maybe we need to look at what the Ryder/Marshall tandem offered compared to the Marshall/?? tandem.

When Ryder played well, St.kilda played well, missing the Richmond final in 2020 really hurt the team..

I think I just did that

[B.M]

I think it diminished both players

Both would’ve been better as number 1 ruckman playing 80% in their best position- rather than playing 50% out of position

Honestly both were average forwards (about half a goal per game)

Gawn and Grundy
Jackson and Darcy

4 great ruckman - who play like crap together

None are forwards arseholes - and are elite ruckmen


You need
A number 1 ruckman 80%
A forward ruck 20%

Keeler is possibly the most important kid on the list

[CQ SAINT]

Marshall's foot injury was a defining part of his develop, he pulled up sore in 2020, got seriously injured in 21, worked through it with support and came out stronger.
2019 proves his skill set and endurance.
2020 - 22 allowed him to recover and improve his injury.
2023 was not much different.

The only defining factor I could recognose that we responded to was injury.

Heath was being developed and is a slow burn, Campbell was arranged as first ruck qualified back up, several players, including Hayes were used as 2nd ruckman and Keeler sems a prime candidate for Keeler.

It's clear our hopes pin on Keeler.

The likely hood is he will develop to be a similar player to Paddy, who is a bit taller, can kick much further and appears to have genuine break away pace for a ruck. You could liken him to Paddy, Nic Nat and the spear chucker.

All I know, is once we rotated rucks forward and took Crouch Butler, Paddy and Howard to play with Marshall, we went from 8.5 goals to 11.9

Marshall is a better athlete, look far more resilient than he did in 20 and 21 and ended the year with a foot niggle.

Bring on Isaac Keeler.