Goals

[B.M]

To finish 7th with an offensive output ranked 15th

Most goals: Tim Membrey (263)
Players with 100-plus career goals: 5 (Tim Membrey, Dan Butler, Max King, Jack Higgins, Mason Wood)
Players with 50-plus goal seasons: 1 (Max King)
Leading goalkicker in 2023: Jack Higgins (36)
Average goals kicked in 2023: 11.3 (15th most)
Players with 20-plus goals in 2023: 5 (Jack Higgins, Dan Butler, Max King, Mitch Owens, Jade Gresham)

Old chicken or egg

Is it a supply problem, an efficiency problem, a conversion problem or capability problem

I think a bit of everything

[Vortex]

definitely it's the chicken, aka capability, get some and the other issues fix themselves.

[Otiman]

Yes, but mostly ground positioning combined with team attributes.

Our gameplan was very good at stopping teams coming at us, but when we got the ball we struggled to switch to an attacking position quick enough.

Hence the focus on long kicking skills and leg speed.

Our stoppage game also suffered from fast and skilful movement.

Our forwardline is not good enough to make opportunities appear from nowhere and often resulted in intercept defenders running rampant on us.

In the middle of the season we tried to shift this a bit but it backfired. We then realised it was all about the players and went to the draft to fix it.

[NickyDal]

The forward line can easily be fixed. Tell Ming and Membrey to lead to opposite flanks and leave Sharman in the square. Higgins needs to be at the feet of Sharman and Higgins needs to be running with the flight of the ball towards our goals.

[Scollop]

We actually did ok throughout the year as far as inside 50 entries. We have youngsters that will get better with games experience.

Our issues as B.M says are varied with system, personnel plus efficiency, and conversion...

E.g. in the Elimination Final

In the first half Pou was in a good spot to take a mark 30 out dead in front and he jumped and got both hands on it, but Caminiti came crashing through and basically spoiled his own team mate.

There was no GWS player contesting. It was about 7 or 8 minutes into the second quarter and no goal had been scored by either team, so it was going to give us some momentum and get us back to only 2 goals down.

The incident occurred with 13.43 left on the clock -2nd quarter. Pou has been important in matches for us this year and he's a very reliable kick.

The result was that GWS got a lucky break and a lucky bounce straight into one of their players' arms and they handballed and ran through the middle and got it to a 1-1 for Hogan who made Cordy look very ordinary.

GWS got the goal and got 2 more after that to open up a 6 goal lead. It was moments like that and opportunities with our entries that didn't quite work out on the day.

Caminiti had no right to spoil his team mate. He wasn't impeded because there weren't other players in front of Caminiti to block his vision. He ran 5 metres straight into the back of a Saints player who had hands on the ball.

Then...

You have guys who are dumb or play dumb footy or don't want to trust themselves with kicking a simple drop punt

viewtopic.php?p=2030476&hilit=Butler#p2030476

[Yorkeys]

Butler came good only in the last few games. Higgins poor conversion rate. Membrey was ordinary, Max never fit but so brave and immense talent, mids and on ballers found scoring very difficult. Thank goodness for M. Owens and Sharman. Making finals was a great coaching feat and defence was magnificent. But scoring wasn't their thing. I hope Byrnes can become a forward, he values possessions.

[Scollop]

Butler came good only in the last few games.

Butler had a pass mark (nothing outstanding) for his last 3 home and away games. 3 goals in total against Richmond, Geelong and Brisbane.

In the Elimination Final he again provided his signature run and tackling pressure, however he ruined his good work with dumb kicking for goal...

Two set shots that didn't make the distance. The first from 35 out, and the second about 40 metres out.

He didn't make the distance (and made the same mistake twice) because he failed to stick to the percentages. A drop punt will travel further than a kick around the corner off a couple of steps.

You don't get many opportunities as a forward. You have to make them count when you're kicking from set shots that are well within the 50m arc.

Butler is a senior player who's played several finals.
If you don't know your limitations after you've already played 100 games then that's unforgivable.

[King Max]

King and Membrey played one game together out of 25. That might explain a lot.

I’d also expect improvement from Owens, Phillipou and Caminiti.

[skeptic]

I always felt like once King came back, our forward line became shockingly inefficient.

When the season started with Pou, Caminiti and aCordy as the pillars… all the midfielders seemed to play with a mentality of “every pass counts, we don’t have the option of blazing away”.
It looked very measured to me and though only 1-2 was ever on fire at any given time: Butler, Higgins and Gresh zoned off well and were usually in the right places to crumb (or in Higgins case, mark). Wood too was an asset that out worked his opponent to get a good run at it and we would tee it up to him.

Once King came back… it looked to me like bombing it long under pressure became an acceptable get out of jail free card again. I think we saw slower movement and bombing.

There was a level of dysfunction there in movement and maybe forward structure once we had the ball north of centre.

That’s what I hope to address this off-season

[Jacks Back]

I always felt like once King came back, our forward line became shockingly inefficient.

When the season started with Pou, Caminiti and aCordy as the pillars… all the midfielders seemed to play with a mentality of “every pass counts, we don’t have the option of blazing away”.
It looked very measured to me and though only 1-2 was ever on fire at any given time: Butler, Higgins and Gresh zoned off well and were usually in the right places to crumb (or in Higgins case, mark). Wood too was an asset that out worked his opponent to get a good run at it and we would tee it up to him.

Once King came back… it looked to me like bombing it long under pressure became an acceptable get out of jail free card again. I think we saw slower movement and bombing.

There was a level of dysfunction there in movement and maybe forward structure once we had the ball north of centre.

That’s what I hope to address this off-season

With King out we were unpredictable. With King in we were predictable.

[wally]

Higgins is the one that stands out in my memory as inaccurate but he’s not the only one I’m sure. Kick more goals than points or out of bounds is a good start.
If we can play in our half more than their half would be good some players by the time they have a shot at goal look spent/ worn out

[B.M]

Should we not kick it to King?

Or better yet pick Cordy instead as a forward?

King kicked 33 goals in 11 games of NO pre season

I’d say he is the most important forward

[skeptic]

Should we not kick it to King?

Or better yet pick Cordy instead as a forward?

King kicked 33 goals in 11 games of NO pre season

I’d say he is the most important forward

I don’t think anyone would dispute that. The challenge is more in working on a system that kicks it to King’s advantage as in the right circumstances he’s almost unstoppable as opposed to bombing to a pack he’s in

[SaintPav]

Of course, they should kick it to King, but that misses the point of the discussion. It's a problem when they constantly look for him when he has three opposition defenders hanging off him instead of other players who are in a better position. It's a double-edged sword.

Perhaps it's time for King to be used differently, including higher up the ground depending on the opposition and/or stage of the game. King could also lead more when he is able to instead of being constantly stuck 20 meters out from goal, which makes the opposition's job of defending much easier.

King also needs to do the team thing and sacrifice his own game when he has to like not demanding the ball be kicked to him when he’s not in a good position, dragging his opponent away from the play by playing wider if he’s opponent is taking intercept marks, playing as a decoy which will help the other forwards out.

I recall a 2022 game against Carlton where Ratten had King playing a little differently than what we were used to. From memory, he played wider and higher up the ground, which seemed to work and made us less predicable.

[Beno88]

King's one on one record is impeccable. Among the best in the competition.

If we can isolate him on a regular basis, he'll kick 60+ goals, but that all comes with fast, efficient ball movement.

[spert]

The forward half this season just looked totally disorganised- lots of talent but all seemed to be playing as individuals and not as a unit...maybe the coaching needs to look at itself in this area. I don't think Butler or Higgins did enough actual crumbling like we expect opportunist small forwards to do- too much hanging out the back, or too far way from marking contests for crumbing, and not much presenting at the front of the pack.
We lack a physically strong CHF, and there was a disconnect between the midfield and the half forward line a lot of times. I would like to see Max lead hard more often as he will get more of the ball than trying to out-muscle his opponent and be off balance in contests. The young guys in Pou and Caminiti show a lot of promise, but Pou is looking more like a natural forward to me, and maybe Caminiti needs more work yet.
Next season should see improvement, as these guys have had a season of playing together, and if we can keep them all on the field, then great.

[Sanctorum]

Of course, they should kick it to King, but that misses the point of the discussion. It's a problem when they constantly look for him when he has three opposition defenders hanging off him instead of other players who are in a better position. It's a double-edged sword.

Perhaps it's time for King to be used differently, including higher up the ground depending on the opposition and/or stage of the game. King could also lead more when he is able to instead of being constantly stuck 20 meters out from goal, which makes the opposition's job of defending much easier.

King also needs to do the team thing and sacrifice his own game when he has to like not demanding the ball be kicked to him when he’s not in a good position, dragging his opponent away from the play by playing wider if he’s opponent is taking intercept marks, playing as a decoy which will help the other forwards out.

I recall a 2022 game against Carlton where Ratten had King playing a little differently than what we were used to. From memory, he played wider and higher up the ground, which seemed to work and made us less predicable.

Good post, the coaches should take a close look at the way Tom Hawkins and Jeremy Cameron are deployed with great effect in the Geelong forward line.

Most of the time Hawkins stays close to goals whilst Cameron drops back to the wing to provide a strong marking target for the mids and halfbacks.

In this scenario, Membrey and Sharman stay close to goals while King does a 'Cameron' and advances to half forward flank and wing.

Utilising King as 'stayput' tall forward inside the arc has not worked and often resulted in opposition defenders teaming up against him and sweeping the loose ball out of St Kilda's forward zones.

[Scollop]

We also have the advantage of being able to mix it up. Both Skunk and Ming can play high up the ground at times. Mix it up and unsettle the opposition backmen

[CQ SAINT]

There's only 6 guys allowed in the 50, after a goal.

Get the ball out first, quick and accurate.

Watch King dominate and break defensive structures for Higgins and the third tall to manipulate.

Let's open up the games for half and then clamp down.

The suprise factor at the beginning of last year was fitness, clean disposal and speed.

If King was available early, we would have been dominant.

[Yorkeys]

Dream Team
Interchange: Clark, Wilson, Windy, Stocker
Followers: Rowan, Owens, Steele
Last line: Wilks, Dougal, Jimmy
First attacking line: Sincs, Battle, Nasiah
Mids: Hill, the Dowster, Henry the flash
Halfforward, but all class: Wood, Caminiti, Phillipou
Moneymen: Sharman, King, Byrnes
Emg: Seb, Paton, Bonner

Pinch me!

[Big Max]

Not so confident with that forward line-up.

Wood, Caminiti, Sharman & Byrnes probably not the answer, well possibly not all of them.

Suggest Higgins or Butler should be there, and not so sure with both Wood & Caminiti, I'd prefer a healthy Membrey on that 1/2 forward line.

The rest of that line-up is outstanding, although I'd probably try to find a spot for Crouch or Ross. Possibly use Owens to bolster the forward line.

Interchange of Clark, Wilson, Windy & Stocker is an indication of great depth.

[Scollop]

... I'd probably try to find a spot for Crouch or Ross.

Why not wait until the intra club games? Why look backwards? As some others have suggested, the coaches and selection committee should wipe the slate on whatever happened in the past. Every position should be up for grabs.

I'd give Seb and Brad Crouch a chance to prove they should play. Stick both oldies on one team with black training tops and get the youngsters on the other team with the white tops.

Pou and Dow together or Windy and Mich as a duo together. Let them compete head to head against Brad and Seb.

I'd probably want to provide Dow, Wilson, Windhager, and Liam Henry, Michito and Mattaes opportunities as mids. Let them play midfield in the intraclub and in the Community Series

They are more likely to be the group that is part of our next Grand Final team. They need to gain games experience playing together

[Scollop]

Seb has been a great servant of the club. He's been a role model and a fantastic leader, but we don't owe him or Brad Crouch anything.

Same with Snags and Buttsy. Let them understand early in the year that their spots as small forwards are not guaranteed.

If Crouch or Seb help us win a Grand Final in 2024, then I'm sure we'll provide them jobs for life

[B.M]

I watch Seb the other week in clearance drills - and he dominated

Schooled the lads - Windhager Dow Phillipou Henry Etc

Too strong, too smart and elite hands

Dow is very good in congestion- when he gets his hands on it

Steele and Crouch absent

[shanegrambeau]

...

There was a level of dysfunction there in movement and maybe forward structure once we had the ball north of centre.

It's a tempting thesis isn't it...

Between the 17th June and the 6th of August, Max played in five games.

We lost four, dismally.

And we won one, by 8 points, against a diabolically broken down West Coast.

At that point, (remember we had already dropped the Hawthorn game earlier without Max and been absolutely clobbered by Adelaide, again without Max) I thought, 'here we go' , our little fairy tale is over. THose late season wins against Richmond and Geelong, plastered over a few cracks and restored some faith. And we were having a crack for sure, even in the dismal mid-season slump patch.

I am still a tad flummoxed by the final.
I thought the forward line was a mess and I worried about Caminiti etc. King looked strong, for sure but was covered. Sharman tried and Cam was pretty much a disaster area, , if a talented one. Butler's misses were shocking, but the mind had already passed into a state of alarm by then. We went into half time at 6.6 and they were 10.5. Tsunami. But shouldn't we have then clobbered them? We couldn't.

We kept cracking and lost the second half by just a point.