Training - Monday December 11

[CQ SAINT]

7 games, CHB, 16 games, Sharman is just a natural footballer?

[Vortex]

I didn't ask him to be a bonafide star, he just has to ruck.

Yeah agree, the point was more there are numerous examples of "big men" making the grade before 20, AND some even becoming stars before 20 so why do some players get the excuse?

Answer, same as all other sized players, luck with recruiting.

I'm on Heath watch this year, he's run out of time and needs to debut in 2024 and show something to justify the continued investment beyond 2024, pretty certain he knows that.

Looks like he's physically ready and certainly was showing some improvement at Sandy this year so fingers crossed he can make it because it would be a massive leg up to the progression of our list profile.

[CQ SAINT]

In 2017, we recruited Marshall and f***ed around for 2 years trying to develop him as a fwd.
Because he was an athlete, not just tall, they made a mistake.
Everyone thought he was a slowly burner and needed development, he walked in at 21 and only 200 and got Fwd developed at 23 we had no one else.
He never looked back.

[CQ SAINT]

We still have I can run all day, keep up, Rowan.

We need, no rest for you, I can jump on your head Keeler to help him out and kick 2 goals a game in a pocket.

[Vortex]

In 2017, we recruited Marshall and f***ed around for 2 years trying to develop him as a fwd.
Because he was an athlete, not just tall, they made a mistake.
Everyone thought he was a slowly burner and needed development, he walked in at 21 and only 200 and got Fwd developed at 23 we had no one else.
He never looked back.

No doubt about it we got lucky with RoMa, is one of my favorite players to watch, still think we haven't seen the best of him yet.

[CQ SAINT]

He is 200cm and playing VFL, let him ruck. Push Campbell and Moose out of the way.

[Vortex]

He is 200cm and playing VFL, let him ruck. Push Campbell and Moose out of the way.

He should be able to knock Campbell over with a feather, if he pushes Moose over with the same ease then I'd expect Moose will be cut from the list at the end of 2024.

[Saintmike65]

Pick the round 1 team at this stage is extremely difficult. But here we go (basically based off media hype):

Wilkie, Howard, Windhager

HB - NWM, Battle, Sinclair

C - Henry, Dow, Wood

HF - Owens, Sharman Hill

F - Butler, King, Membrey

Fol - Marshall, Crouch, Steele

Bench - Clark (Mid/Back rotation), Jones (Mid rotation), Stocker (Backline Rotation), Wilson (Mid/Forward rotation

Sub - Ross

They won't go with that forward line. No Higgins (unless Wilson takes that role which means he'll start), it's either Membrey OR Sharman. Windhager is not a back pocket - Webster/Stocker is that.

I’d have Crouch on the bench (probably not a popular call but midfield needs a shake up) giving Steele a spell, Windhager in a run with role & Dow the other starting mid.
Phillipou and Owens up forward, King & Membrey the key forwards, Hill HHF, Butler & Higgins.

[CQ SAINT]

I'm privy to some inside info, in development in the west.

I have played with a lot of Aboriginal miners, who also came to Central Queensland to play football. Some of them work in football development.

In the 80's before AFL and ever since, many were attracted to the money playing in resource rich areas, so we made connections and placed ads in Vic, SA and WA for state league footballers looking for well paid jobs with a sympathetic HR and rostering team. It was very successful.

THE Noongar and Murri people have been connected a long time. I played with names like Ugle, an Italian Aboriginal called Matera and and another called Ryder. This ability is in there blood. Non mission Aboriginals are usually more favourable, like public school kids have become in Melb, but they are rarely the most talented kids. Other kids are fighting for recognition as human, let alone as worth developing.

We know the wider view of developing Aboriginals to excell in their own right in Australia, we have specific ideas about how that should look.

Education comes in 3 levels, private, public and home schooled. This applies to all colours.

So, here is Adelaide's view off Keeler.



He thinks he is a ruckman. His idols are Buddy, The 'spear chucker' and Paddy. He felt he wasted at FF.

He wants to be a ruckman. they wanted a replacement for Tex.

He has an attitude.

Adelaide lost faith because he pushed to play ruck and got shitty.

Adelaide switched off the devlopment, the coach switched him to ruck and said, if you have have a point and want to play the game, you better impress someone.

I didn't make this up. The basic facts are published.



This is what started to happen

[CQ SAINT]

Rowan Marshall is a 201cm midfielder, who CAN ruck

[saynta]

He is 200cm and playing VFL, let him ruck. Push Campbell and Moose out of the way.

He should be able to knock Campbell over with a feather, if he pushes Moose over with the same ease then I'd expect Moose will be cut from the list at the end of 2024.

Not going to happen.

[spert]

Looks to me like Heath is going to have to step up a bit quickly if he is to make it to senior AFL level?

[Saintmatt]

It’s wierd

Pou seems like a veteran, having played every game last year. Compared to h new names.

-and he’s stil only 18!!

It really is crazy how young he is. Him and Michito have definitely been in the gym - their chests, shoulders and arms are noticeably bigger than 3 months ago

[Saintmatt]

Pou tried to attack the ball last year, wasn't near it enough, but he will get his own regularly, eventually, and could break open tight games, but with him looking leaner but stronger, we might find him moving forward from the peripheral more, he can hit the sponsors boards from the 50, he can leap, he can run all day and he has a decent 20m for his height.
Last year he just seemed so prone to standing ground, in the heat, ready to use quick hands.

Steele Crouch Clark and Windy should go in and under, let's see if Jones, Phillipou, Owens, and Wilson can take it away.

Hill, NWM, Wood, Sinclair, Henry and Garcia can run lanes and drive off stoppages.

It looks exciting on paper, looks impressive on the track, it's a good feeling.

I'm just as keen to see King establish himself as a gun and if Keeler look as good unwrapped as he does under the Xmas tree. He is the one we want to be a hit the most, IMHO. heath and Caminiti don't compare in X factor. Caminiti will probably out work him, but Heath won't.

If Keeler can ruck before he hits 20, we aren't far off. He will smash 3rd tall in the AFL. the most versatile defender will have to follow him.

On Keeler, why is it that Keeler might be capable of becoming an AFL grade ruckman by the age of 20 but at the age of 21 Heath is still considered to be too young and is protected from expectation with the excuse he is in fact "still too young" as big men take longer to "develop".

Not having a go CQ but merely raising the topic for discussion as it's one of those fascinating characteristics of the AFL landscape.

Personally I have thought for some time there is no scientific basis for the claim because physiologically speaking shouldn't "big men" be capable of developing at the same rate as "small men"?

There seems to be many examples that prove the theory too where big men have jumped out of the blocks at an early age to become bonafide stars before they hit their 20s.

I actually get what CQS is saying - Keeler and Heath are different players. Keeler is like a seriously athletic version of Ryder - a bit skinnier but, not hugely so. He can also play as a genuine forward. He's more likely to leap over the oppo ruckman than tussle and wrestle or crash in. Heath is more of a traditional ruckman - needs body mass to compete as he's doesn't have Keeler's athleticism and he'll only get that with gym and eating.

[Impatient Sainter]

Keeler is an exceptional talent and when he grows into a mans body will be capable of playing any where. I havent seen Max Heath training and rucking against Marshall or Campbell, but lets remember Campbell is a colossus of human and Marshall is in the top 3 ruckman in the AFL. People who are writing Heath off because of his training output, cant of watched him play very often IMO.

Marshall is now 28 yo and didnt really find his feet until Ryder left the club 2 years ago. Heath is 21 yo and he might not be the finished product, but you cant buy his attack and aggression at the footy and the opposition. He might not become the most polished ruckman in the competition, but I bet he will the player his team mates love playing with because he will make them walk taller. For me he is a similiar version to Oscar McInerney, who also isnt the perfect athlete, but is a valuable player. McInerney didnt debut until he was 24yo and now is important player in a grand final side - lets not write off these kids with the right attitude so quickly.

[Saintmatt]

I'm privy to some inside info, in development in the west.

I have played with a lot of Aboriginal miners, who also came to Central Queensland to play football. Some of them work in football development.

In the 80's before AFL and ever since, many were attracted to the money playing in resource rich areas, so we made connections and placed ads in Vic, SA and WA for state league footballers looking for well paid jobs with a sympathetic HR and rostering team. It was very successful.

THE Noongar and Murri people have been connected a long time. I played with names like Ugle, an Italian Aboriginal called Matera and and another called Ryder. This ability is in there blood. Non mission Aboriginals are usually more favourable, like public school kids have become in Melb, but they are rarely the most talented kids. Other kids are fighting for recognition as human, let alone as worth developing.

We know the wider view of developing Aboriginals to excell in their own right in Australia, we have specific ideas about how that should look.

Education comes in 3 levels, private, public and home schooled. This applies to all colours.

So, here is Adelaide's view off Keeler.



He thinks he is a ruckman. His idols are Buddy, The 'spear chucker' and Paddy. He felt he wasted at FF.

He wants to be a ruckman. they wanted a replacement for Tex.

He has an attitude.

Adelaide lost faith because he pushed to play ruck and got shitty.

Adelaide switched off the devlopment, the coach switched him to ruck and said, if you have have a point and want to play the game, you better impress someone.

I didn't make this up. The basic facts are published.



This is what started to happen

Keeler and Collard have the two most natural and visually pleasing kicking styles in many a long year at St K FC

[Vortex]

I'm privy to some inside info, in development in the west.

I have played with a lot of Aboriginal miners, who also came to Central Queensland to play football. Some of them work in football development.

In the 80's before AFL and ever since, many were attracted to the money playing in resource rich areas, so we made connections and placed ads in Vic, SA and WA for state league footballers looking for well paid jobs with a sympathetic HR and rostering team. It was very successful.

THE Noongar and Murri people have been connected a long time. I played with names like Ugle, an Italian Aboriginal called Matera and and another called Ryder. This ability is in there blood. Non mission Aboriginals are usually more favourable, like public school kids have become in Melb, but they are rarely the most talented kids. Other kids are fighting for recognition as human, let alone as worth developing.

We know the wider view of developing Aboriginals to excell in their own right in Australia, we have specific ideas about how that should look.

Education comes in 3 levels, private, public and home schooled. This applies to all colours.

So, here is Adelaide's view off Keeler.



He thinks he is a ruckman. His idols are Buddy, The 'spear chucker' and Paddy. He felt he wasted at FF.

He wants to be a ruckman. they wanted a replacement for Tex.

He has an attitude.

Adelaide lost faith because he pushed to play ruck and got shitty.

Adelaide switched off the devlopment, the coach switched him to ruck and said, if you have have a point and want to play the game, you better impress someone.

I didn't make this up. The basic facts are published.



This is what started to happen

When do you expect he will debut?

[Moods]

I agree Big Max, but who do you drop for the ruck backup? I think it has to be the CHF position (Membrey/Sharman).

I also think Henry misses out on a bench spot in place of Membrey/Sharman who rotates through with the ruck relief to allow Marshall to spend time on the bench.

I agree too.

I don’t agree on Henry missing out. I don’t think you understand he’s like the next Bobby Hill. Can win us games.

I think move off Wilson to the sub. Bring Keeler in and move Henry as the outside mid rotation and put Keeler as the forward rotation.

I agree. You don’t target a player from an opposing team and not play that player. You bring them in and use draft capital on them, they play! This was made clear to me only today by an ex AFL player who retired partly on the basis he could see the writing on the wall re a player the club recruited in his position

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

The one thing I couldn't believe was how Keeler slipped to us. Adelaide could have picked him up as an NGA product but declined. I believe they will regret that decision.

How often does a 198 cm, athletic, and highly skilled prospect come along? Not very often. I'm not surprised he is impressing at training.

I have a mate who is a Crows supporter who is filthy that his mob passed on him. He follows all things football in SA and told me that attitude was supposedly the problem, but that issue has already been dealt with here. If anyone can motivate Isaac and get him to AFL standard it's RTB and crew.

Comparing Isaac with Moose is like comparing apples with oranges. They are different types.

Moose is more of an old-fashioned ruckman. A strong, bash-and-crash type who can pose a danger when resting forward. Isaac is more like a true follower type, similar to Roma. Mobile and skillful who can play in a number of positions, not just in the ruck.

I think that in time we'll chalk this one up as another success for the Toce/Roughie team.

[CQ SAINT]

I'm privy to some inside info, in development in the west.

I have played with a lot of Aboriginal miners, who also came to Central Queensland to play football. Some of them work in football development.

In the 80's before AFL and ever since, many were attracted to the money playing in resource rich areas, so we made connections and placed ads in Vic, SA and WA for state league footballers looking for well paid jobs with a sympathetic HR and rostering team. It was very successful.

THE Noongar and Murri people have been connected a long time. I played with names like Ugle, an Italian Aboriginal called Matera and and another called Ryder. This ability is in there blood. Non mission Aboriginals are usually more favourable, like public school kids have become in Melb, but they are rarely the most talented kids. Other kids are fighting for recognition as human, let alone as worth developing.

We know the wider view of developing Aboriginals to excell in their own right in Australia, we have specific ideas about how that should look.

Education comes in 3 levels, private, public and home schooled. This applies to all colours.

So, here is Adelaide's view off Keeler.



He thinks he is a ruckman. His idols are Buddy, The 'spear chucker' and Paddy. He felt he wasted at FF.

He wants to be a ruckman. they wanted a replacement for Tex.

He has an attitude.

Adelaide lost faith because he pushed to play ruck and got shitty.

Adelaide switched off the devlopment, the coach switched him to ruck and said, if you have have a point and want to play the game, you better impress someone.

I didn't make this up. The basic facts are published.



This is what started to happen

When do you expect he will debut?

After the bye.

[Vortex]

After the bye.

So is there room for Keeler and Heath in the same side?

[Otiman]

Some VFL stats since 2022:
https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Max_Heath
https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Isaac_Keeler

Max Heath - 33 games, 337 disposals, 31 goals 18pts, 502 hitouts
Isaac Keeler - 12 games, 116 disposals, 12 goals 14pts, 24 hitouts

Without calculating the averages, it's pretty even except for hitouts.

[Otiman]

I agree Big Max, but who do you drop for the ruck backup? I think it has to be the CHF position (Membrey/Sharman).

I also think Henry misses out on a bench spot in place of Membrey/Sharman who rotates through with the ruck relief to allow Marshall to spend time on the bench.

I agree too.

I don’t agree on Henry missing out. I don’t think you understand he’s like the next Bobby Hill. Can win us games.

I think move off Wilson to the sub. Bring Keeler in and move Henry as the outside mid rotation and put Keeler as the forward rotation.

I agree. You don’t target a player from an opposing team and not play that player. You bring them in and use draft capital on them, they play! This was made clear to me only today by an ex AFL player who retired partly on the basis he could see the writing on the wall re a player the club recruited in his position

Your points are valid, but with team structure in mind, what does the 22 look like? Let's have a crack at it.

Starting again from Zacsby's team (which I reckon is close to the mark), and locking in the preferences it looks like.

B - Wilkie, Howard, Webster
HB - NWM, Battle, Sinclair
C - Hill, Dow, Wood
HF - Phillipou, Membrey, Butler
F - Higgins, King, Owens
Fol - Marshall, Crouch, Steele
Bench - Clark (Mid inside), Wilson or Ross (Mid outside), Henry (Forward rotation), Windhager (Backline Rotation)
Sub - Ross or Wilson (Daddy Cool?)

From here we are a resting ruck short.

The only way to get out of this is to ignore the traditional lines and look at roles rather than positions.

3 Big Defensive Backs: Howard, Wilkie, Battle
1 Small Defensive Backs: Webster
2 Attacking Backs: NWM, Sinclair
4 Inside (Contested ball) Mid: Dow, Steele, Crouch, Owens
3 Outside (Uncontested ball) Mid: Hill, Wood, Philippou
2 Rucks: Marshall, +1
1 Big Forwards: King, Membrey
2 Small Forwards: Butler, Higgins

Bench:
Windhager (Inside mid/def)
Clark (inside mid/def)
Ross/Wilson (Outside Mid)
Henry (Outside mid/fwd)

Sub:
???
Sub:

Based on this I reckon one of Clark, Ross/Wilson, Henry misses out for a second ruck who can play forward. Which should be Caminiti or Keeler, or Heath if he's up to it.

PS how many games did Henry win for Freo?

[TheGreatZacsby]

I agree Big Max, but who do you drop for the ruck backup? I think it has to be the CHF position (Membrey/Sharman).

I also think Henry misses out on a bench spot in place of Membrey/Sharman who rotates through with the ruck relief to allow Marshall to spend time on the bench.

I agree too.

I don’t agree on Henry missing out. I don’t think you understand he’s like the next Bobby Hill. Can win us games.

I think move off Wilson to the sub. Bring Keeler in and move Henry as the outside mid rotation and put Keeler as the forward rotation.

I agree. You don’t target a player from an opposing team and not play that player. You bring them in and use draft capital on them, they play! This was made clear to me only today by an ex AFL player who retired partly on the basis he could see the writing on the wall re a player the club recruited in his position

Your points are valid, but with team structure in mind, what does the 22 look like? Let's have a crack at it.

Starting again from Zacsby's team (which I reckon is close to the mark), and locking in the preferences it looks like.

B - Wilkie, Howard, Webster
HB - NWM, Battle, Sinclair
C - Hill, Dow, Wood
HF - Phillipou, Membrey, Butler
F - Higgins, King, Owens
Fol - Marshall, Crouch, Steele
Bench - Clark (Mid inside), Wilson or Ross (Mid outside), Henry (Forward rotation), Windhager (Backline Rotation)
Sub - Ross or Wilson (Daddy Cool?)

From here we are a resting ruck short.

The only way to get out of this is to ignore the traditional lines and look at roles rather than positions.

3 Big Defensive Backs: Howard, Wilkie, Battle
1 Small Defensive Backs: Webster
2 Attacking Backs: NWM, Sinclair
4 Inside (Contested ball) Mid: Dow, Steele, Crouch, Owens
3 Outside (Uncontested ball) Mid: Hill, Wood, Philippou
2 Rucks: Marshall, +1
1 Big Forwards: King, Membrey
2 Small Forwards: Butler, Higgins

Bench:
Windhager (Inside mid/def)
Clark (inside mid/def)
Ross/Wilson (Outside Mid)
Henry (Outside mid/fwd)

Sub:
???
Sub:

Based on this I reckon one of Clark, Ross/Wilson, Henry misses out for a second ruck who can play forward. Which should be Caminiti or Keeler, or Heath if he's up to it.

PS how many games did Henry win for Freo?

I like you analysis. From all reports Henry is tearing up the track and is too versatile to leave out. Adds pop in the midfield at stoppages, can sneak forward and helps with our transition work. I don’t think people realise he is almost as good as Bobby Hill. You don’t leave these players out.

I think move Wilson to sub to get him some games without overloading him and his two pace running will help as a sub and his versatility either playing forward, outside mid or inside mid.

By moving Wilson to sub we open up a position for a ruck forward in Keeler, Hayes or Caminiti. I think the club is actually putting Keeler in defence (a bit weird) which would mean we got pinch ruckmans in the forward line in Owens and a pinch ruckman in the backline in Keeler and Rowan through the middle.

[Otiman]

Yes so Ross plays VFL, and is midfield depth along with Jones. I'm OK with that.

I'll believe Keeler in defense when I hear it from someone other than a first post on Bigfooty.

Playing all three of Gresham, Butler and Higgins was too many small forwards, but could we see one Higgins or Butler get dropped for a midfielder rotating forward?