Lance Collard

[Otiman]

Getting a bit off topic but I think the all of the trades we were involved with (in and out) will benefit the players involved.

[CQ SAINT]

Disagree

And you’re saying that because they’re gone

Both players played a lot of good games at StK

Both finished top 5 in the B&F

Both had multiple games where they kicked multiple goals and were judged in the best 3 on the ground

If Collard ends up as good as either both the club and I would be happy

Those are good points but they are biased.

Finishing top 5 in the club that lets you gou after 150 games, is an achievement, but not one discussed in rooms full of winners.

[Moods]

If you are trying to convince me that Billings and Gresham didn’t play any good footy for StK - you’re wasting your time

Both, when injury free, were very good players

I never said they didn't play ANY good footy at the Saints. Why would you think I said that? But both of them had big limitations which you seem to have either missed or like to gloss over. Gresh was a handy goal sneak but was a very average midfielder. His kicking skills and decision making were both poor. His extraction skills were very good. He had good pace and evasiveness, hence why he could be handy on the fwd line. But he was very average from about 2020 onwards. Injury proneness was just another reason to move him on. Inconsistent even when injury free.

Billings to my mind was massively over rated in the kicking department. He had one season where he looked like he might realise his early potential but in the end he had far more quiet games than effectual games. His goal kicking (which is a key reason we recruited him) was overall very disappointing. Once again his inability to actually get on the park was in my book reason enough to move him on. Had done nothing of note since 2019. I'll be staggered if he can break in and keep a spot at the Dees.

My reason for mentioning Cyril was that you claimed that Jack and Jade will both play 200 AFL games (I highly doubt it myself) but for me, that doesn't mean they are very good AFL footballers. Cyril didn't even play 200 games was my point and he was an exceptional AFL player. Longevity can mean everything or can mean nothing. Careers can be cut short for a variety of reasons. Fiora who in my book was a very average AFL footballer played 160 games. He could have been cut after 50 imo

[B.M]

You don’t play 200 games of AFL if you aren’t pretty good

That’s 10+ years of playing senior footy

Only reason Cyril only played 180 odd is because he retired before he was 29
If no he would’ve played 300

Fiora was a an ok player

[Yorkeys]

Jack Newnes played over 200. Doubt he would get into Saints current squad. Circumstances can qualify stats which usually require context for comparative assessment. Good never great player that didn't get injured and knew how to play the coach. Ok and durable but questionable if he was pretty good as far as AFL standard players go?

[SaintPav]

Lyon cut Fiora when he had 1 year remaining on his contract. That’s how disgusted he was with his performance in the 2008 Preliminary.

[B.M]

Players are never judged on 1 game

If they are - the people doing the judging are not competent

[Vortex]

Flora by his own admission post retirement acknowledged he wasted his opportunity, had all the talent but just didn't work hard enough.

Will be interesting to see what Billings does with the opportunity the Dee's have given him because had it not been for Richo his AFL career would be over because there wasn't any interest at all by other clubs in recruiting him.

[skeptic]

Flora by his own admission post retirement acknowledged he wasted his opportunity, had all the talent but just didn't work hard enough.

Interesting. It’s a slightly different take from what I read from one article or another at the time. It was an interview with Fiora and he said in that final year… about halfway through, he noted that the coaches weren’t giving him as much instruction and he thought it was odd.

His response was that he kept doing the things that he was doing and everything seemed to be fine based in the feedback he was getting but he just felt that something was off.

Come the end of the season, the discussion he had was about the autonomy he lacked in getting the feedback himself about what/how he needed to improve/work he should be doing.

In the article, Fiora himself suggested that he let his opportunity get away from him rather than take control of his circumstances as much as he could.

It’s a minor difference I guess and I am paraphrasing an article I read 15+ years ago.

Odd that I remember this? Must have resonated for whatever reason

[CQ SAINT]

Players are never judged on 1 game

If they are - the people doing the judging are not competent

People are judged on there best hundred games. They get contracts. Billings was given four years and couldn't produce in 2 of them and left a miserable failure.

Ask Jack, how proud he was of his exit.

[Otiman]

Players are never judged on 1 game

If they are - the people doing the judging are not competent

Unless it's a grand final.

[saynta]

Did anyone see the photo of Moose tackling Lance at training on facebook. Lance is half the size of Moose and looked like a ten year old.

[B.M]

Billings was injured for most of his last 2 seasons

As Mason Wood was before becoming a saint

It’s amazing how much impact an injury has on performance- especially a back.

Gresham obviously did his Achilles
He’s a player that relies on power and acceleration
So that is an issue, even if it’s just mental

Fiora played 9 seasons for 160 games - good effort
He was no star, but suffered the same judgement Billings does
Not - how good they are but rather how good they should be

Fiora and Billings were pick 3s
Picked anywhere outside the top 10 and we’d be singing their praises
Not all high DPs in this case #3 turns out to be Chris Judd (pick 3) some turn out to be Chris Masten (pick 3)

People assume drafting is an exact science

And high picks should automatically be superstars - it’s not even the case with pick 1s

As soon as you walk in the door of a footy club - all drafted players are on the same level


Pick 8 2003 - R.Clarke
Pick 55 2003 - S. Fisher

[SaintPav]

Did anyone see the photo of Moose tackling Lance at training on facebook. Lance is half the size of Moose and looked like a ten year old.

Who is Moose?

[skeptic]

I don’t think anyone assumes drafting is an exact science - that’s the strangest observation of the week.

Out of interest BM…

Who do you rate higher: Fiora or Billings (to date)?

[B.M]

Obviously Billings

Fiora always very much a fringe player
Averaged 11 disposals a game as a Winger
0 Brownlow votes
Never top 10 in a B&F
Just a handy player

Billings
Averages 20ppg as a HHF or Wing
29 Brownlow votes
Once top 5 in B&F
Twice top 10 in B&F
When fit - very good player

[Scollop]

[CQ SAINT]

Obviously Billings

Fiora always very much a fringe player
Averaged 11 disposals a game as a Winger
0 Brownlow votes
Never top 10 in a B&F
Just a handy player

Billings
Averages 20ppg as a HHF or Wing
29 Brownlow votes
Once top 5 in B&F
Twice top 10 in B&F
When fit - very good player

Billings had a run of 60 games where he was extremely fit.
His return in those 60 games as a whole was good but he was no match winner.

But, it was heavily outside and happened because he could run in the vicinity of 15k a game during that period, not because he was outstanding in any other facet. When he couldn't run 15k, he was fairly average and just missed a lot of goals.

[Scollop]

Did anyone see the photo of Moose tackling Lance at training on facebook. Lance is half the size of Moose and looked like a ten year old.

Who is Moose?

[SaintPav]

Oh yeah. Thanks.

[Vortex]

Flora by his own admission post retirement acknowledged he wasted his opportunity, had all the talent but just didn't work hard enough.

Interesting. It’s a slightly different take from what I read from one article or another at the time. It was an interview with Fiora and he said in that final year… about halfway through, he noted that the coaches weren’t giving him as much instruction and he thought it was odd.

His response was that he kept doing the things that he was doing and everything seemed to be fine based in the feedback he was getting but he just felt that something was off.

Come the end of the season, the discussion he had was about the autonomy he lacked in getting the feedback himself about what/how he needed to improve/work he should be doing.

In the article, Fiora himself suggested that he let his opportunity get away from him rather than take control of his circumstances as much as he could.

It’s a minor difference I guess and I am paraphrasing an article I read 15+ years ago.

Odd that I remember this? Must have resonated for whatever reason

I'm drawing on memory too but your recount sounds familiar also. The high DPs that are fails are possibly remembered as much as the successful high DPs for all the wrong reasons.

[CQ SAINT]

The thing Billings doesn't really deserve is criticism until he ran off, thinking he couldn't be good enough. Clearly the money didn't matter as much as the chance.

He did his best and he was a St.Kilda player.

His best wasn't worth the money he made. No where near.

[Vortex]

Max Heath needs to debut in 2024 and show he's got the potential to be AFL standard...it's time.

[B.M]

21 is very young in ruck terms

Marshall wasn’t recruited until he was 21

[CQ SAINT]

21 is very young in ruck terms

Marshall wasn’t recruited until he was 21

He wasn't developed in the AFL either. We were staging his development as a high half forward. Battle too. And Sinclair.

I expect as a forward in the VFL, Keeler will prove that he is our best option for 2nd ruck, in the first 10 rounds.

I'm just not sure he is in view, he might have to put him self there.

That's how Marshall did it.

The miles he travelled to be developed at the level that would improve him was incredible.

This kid gave up a NGA position and travelled from Bumfuck SA to Moorabbin.

1st preseason, hasn't stopped and he is rolling with half a dozen very motivated young men who are excelling athletically, as a group, and they have a player coach mentors and legends of the club driving them to their best.

We will see.