Billings wants out

[skeptic]

In all the gnashing of teeth over the probability of losing Billings, I haven't seen anybody explain coherently why he appears to be out of favour with the coaching panel?
It cannot just be Lyon
It has to also be Hayes, Harvey, Enright Goddard plus anybody else involved in the coaching/selection.
It's easy to just 'blame' Lyon (especially for those who are still annoyed with his selection as our coach)

But Billings is obviously doing/not doing something that is holding him back.

Afterall, do posters really believe that a coaching panel would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
Seriously?
In a results driven industry, a coaching panel would sabotage their own performance for no good reason?

It’s an interesting one.

In the current landscape as reported… as a flanker/FP that could push into the middle, to me he was most interchangeable with Gresh of all players.

Gresh has always been very prone to brain fades/bad decisions but as a club, you accept the bad with these types of players if it comes with the good too.
If Gresh has a filthy night kicking 1.3 and missing two assists but turns around and kicks the match winner… well you take that.
Late in the year, unfortunately he looked to have a rougher patch with the finishing and trialling Billings as a player in that role who is say… less explosive but cleaner looked like a no brainer to me.

The fact that he didn’t get a look in seemed quite damning to me

[skeptic]

Saints are lacking quality disposal into the forward line, in fact everywhere, and Billings has that. I would prefer RTB & co give him a go, but not looking likely now.

Appreciate the considered response.

So it seems like we’re separate on measuring his performance to date and the why/what’s held him back. At the very least I do agree with you on the quoted points. I think he might make us look a bit foolish for letting him go… and whilst I like Dow, this kid was being talked up (down?) as a likely delistee 2 months ago. I don’t want to give up Jack for peanuts. I reckon he has value

[SinCitySainter]

In all the gnashing of teeth over the probability of losing Billings, I haven't seen anybody explain coherently why he appears to be out of favour with the coaching panel?
It cannot just be Lyon
It has to also be Hayes, Harvey, Enright Goddard plus anybody else involved in the coaching/selection.
It's easy to just 'blame' Lyon (especially for those who are still annoyed with his selection as our coach)

But Billings is obviously doing/not doing something that is holding him back.

Afterall, do posters really believe that a coaching panel would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
Seriously?
In a results driven industry, a coaching panel would sabotage their own performance for no good reason?

Do we believe that a coaching panel headed up by Ross Lyon would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
I don't know but we should ask Luke Ball, Max Hudghton and Tom Lynch their opinions on the subject.
He may not deliberately do it but he defiantly has a history of stamping someone's papers.

[saintsRrising]

In all the gnashing of teeth over the probability of losing Billings, I haven't seen anybody explain coherently why he appears to be out of favour with the coaching panel?

Lyon spoke on Billings early in the season. Lyon had individual players meetings with all the players. Both back then, and since.

The nub of the conversation was that where dis Billings see himself playing and that was as a small forward.


So as a small forward that means that he is behind Higgins, Butler and Gresham in 2023. Plus in 2023 both Owens and Phillipou were played largely up forward.
On form one could argue (and I would have) played Billings instead of Phillipou later in the season as Phillipou's form dipped. But Lyon was I assume intent more on the future and wanted to pump games into Phillipou to develop him. Phillipou was a bottom age kid this season. He will be a beast in 2 years time.

Gresham likely to go though for 2024. But we may well be play an extra mid, plus we have Henry coming in as well.


So it was going to be very hard for Billings to get into our 22 without a lot of injuries.

[Mr Magic]

In all the gnashing of teeth over the probability of losing Billings, I haven't seen anybody explain coherently why he appears to be out of favour with the coaching panel?
It cannot just be Lyon
It has to also be Hayes, Harvey, Enright Goddard plus anybody else involved in the coaching/selection.
It's easy to just 'blame' Lyon (especially for those who are still annoyed with his selection as our coach)

But Billings is obviously doing/not doing something that is holding him back.

Afterall, do posters really believe that a coaching panel would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
Seriously?
In a results driven industry, a coaching panel would sabotage their own performance for no good reason?

Do we believe that a coaching panel headed up by Ross Lyon would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
I don't know but we should ask Luke Ball, Max Hudghton and Tom Lynch their opinions on the subject.
He may not deliberately do it but he defiantly has a history of stamping someone's papers.

Seemingly the 'Luke Ball Story' has reached urban legend status. IIRC there were fitness issues dating back to mid-season for Ball - but ignore all that because it doesn't fit the popular narrative. (I for one will not forget that Ball chose to denigrate our Club in an effort to get to Collonwood. and once there he was more than happy, along with Hudghton, to deliver our IP to them.)
Similarly with Max Hudghton - a match committee decision to err on the side of caution vis-a-vis his fitness has become a 'Lyon deliberately left him out' because he .....
Tom Lynch was a young player and Lyon seemed to prefer older, more mature players at selection at that time.
It's interesting that he's being criticized for selecting younger players over more established players this time around.

[ctqs]

He's not going to help us win a flag. The game has gone past him. He's had a decade - or the best part thereof - to establish himself and he's failed in that regard. Time for all parties to move on to greener pastures.

[CQ SAINT]

In all the gnashing of teeth over the probability of losing Billings, I haven't seen anybody explain coherently why he appears to be out of favour with the coaching panel?
It cannot just be Lyon
It has to also be Hayes, Harvey, Enright Goddard plus anybody else involved in the coaching/selection.
It's easy to just 'blame' Lyon (especially for those who are still annoyed with his selection as our coach)

But Billings is obviously doing/not doing something that is holding him back.

Afterall, do posters really believe that a coaching panel would deliberately not play somebody who would improve the team's performance?
Seriously?
In a results driven industry, a coaching panel would sabotage their own performance for no good reason?

It’s an interesting one.

In the current landscape as reported… as a flanker/FP that could push into the middle, to me he was most interchangeable with Gresh of all players.

Gresh has always been very prone to brain fades/bad decisions but as a club, you accept the bad with these types of players if it comes with the good too.
If Gresh has a filthy night kicking 1.3 and missing two assists but turns around and kicks the match winner… well you take that.
Late in the year, unfortunately he looked to have a rougher patch with the finishing and trialling Billings as a player in that role who is say… less explosive but cleaner looked like a no brainer to me.

The fact that he didn’t get a look in seemed quite damning to me

He played in round 17, had hamstring awareness had a rest, played 19 and 20, did hamstring again. Missed one week, got a bye at Sandy and then played round 22 in the ressies. His manager immediately began begging for offers.

He got a look in and went straight back out.

[shanegrambeau]

….
It cannot just be Lyon…
..a coaching panel would sabotage their own performant….

..

He played in round 17..hamstring …
played 19 and 20, did hamstring again.
Missed one week,…
bye at Sandy…
played round 22 in the ressies.
His manager immediately began begging for offers.

Good points all round!!
I was already forgetting that they gave him a crack..

Take back what I opined but giving more value than Pou
And not being selected.

Seemed to do oK in the Melb loss and played 89% ground time…but ..as you say…hammy.

[CURLY]

Goes at 21 touches a game and jyst under a goal. Can almost guarantee we retain the ball once he gets it.

Far better than Byrnes.

[saint-stu]

Goes at 21 touches a game and jyst under a goal. Can almost guarantee we retain the ball once he gets it.

Far better than Byrnes.

Yeh while Billings hasn't been what we hoped, I agree he's still a much better option than Byrnes. No idea why they go the other way.

[B.M]

Ross rates effort over talent


Byrnes is a power runner - honestly he runs around like a headless chook sometimes.

Byrnes will NEVER be as good as Billings

Phillipou will be but right now is not any near it

Bizarre but no surprising

[SinCitySainter]

Ross rates effort over talent


Byrnes is a power runner - honestly he runs around like a headless chook sometimes.

Byrnes will NEVER be as good as Billings

Phillipou will be but right now is not any near it

Bizarre but no surprising

I agree with this 100%.
Ross couldn't care less if you couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo as long as you look frantic doing it.
Ross Lyon's perfect player is the dog who chases cars all day.

[D.B.Cooper]

I'd rather keep Billings than trade for Dow.
Dow is a good clearance player but an absolute butcher, if SOS wasn't list manager would we be looking at Dow?
Billings is cream in a contending team.

SOS MO at Carlton, recruit ex GWS high draft picks that haven't performed.
I am concerned the same will be at Saints with SOS taking players like Dow and O'Brien who were very good juniors but not AFL standard to date.
If we also take O'Brien which I suspect we will do (or at least invite him to train) I'll spew like Terry Wallace in year of the dog.

I agree with above that players like Byrnes will never be in the class of Billings, that indicates Billings isn't doing something that the coaches are asking. I don't buy the line that RTB doesn't like him or is biased, Ross is no fool.

I hope Billings stays and comes back fit and firing with a bug up his arse to stick it up the coaches and show them what he can do in 2024.

Dow only as a DFA on minimum wage.
Do we really need a player like Dow when we have a one paced midfield with Steele, Ross & Crouch?

[B.M]

Do not for one minute think that Ross Lyon makes the right call %100 of the time.

History suggests he made poor calls with
Ball
Armitage
Steven
Lynch

All while they were at StK

Stars lived him and sang from his hymn book

Developing players and fringe VFL players thought he was a c***!

[B.M]

He has incorrectly pigeon holed Billings

And doesn’t rate him

To play Phillipou ahead of him was absurd- he was basically uncompetitive from r16

[SaintPav]

He has incorrectly pigeon holed Billings

And doesn’t rate him

To play Phillipou ahead of him was absurd- he was basically uncompetitive from r16

Where would you play Billings?

[CQ SAINT]

If Billings was coming to us from Sydney for 4x$750 how many would be defending that decision.

[Scollop]

Billings ..

...4x$750

Did you deliberately quote those figures because it relates to what St Kilda paid him over the last 4 yrs?

If that's the case...

I'd say we need to sack anyone involved in offering him that contract plus...sack any fitness staff or head of high performance that has been involved in his recovery and preparation.

[Beno88]

Billings has played 10 games in over 2 years.

He is one of only 8 St Kilda players to have played 10 or more games without achieving 100+ ranking points in a match in that period.

The others are - Bytel (gone), Lienert (gone), Paton, Caminiti (1st year), Phillipou (1st year), Sharman and Cordy.

[CURLY]

Love all the theorys of favortism and out of favor or pigeon holed. He was injured for 85% of the year its a long way to catch up especially coming into a final.

[D.B.Cooper]

Do not for one minute think that Ross Lyon makes the right call %100 of the time.

History suggests he made poor calls with
Ball
Armitage
Steven
Lynch

All while they were at StK

Stars lived him and sang from his hymn book

Developing players and fringe VFL players thought he was a c***!

So in hindsight Ross made mistakes (I assume you are stating) by not playing Armitage, Steven & Lynch?

If that is the case I agree (in hindsight) they should have played earlier or been given more opportunity to cement a position.

But then you are knocking him for playing Phillipou. Isn’t playing Phillipou even though probably not ready, but for the benefit of the future exactly what you think (in hindsight) he should have done with Armitage, Steven & Lynch?

Were you stating in 09 when we won what 19 straight that he should have been playing the above 3 or particularly Armo wh played a fair bit in 08.

Hindsight is easy, but eating one’s cake and having it to is actually not possible.

[Scollop]

Do not for one minute think that Ross Lyon makes the right call %100 of the time.

History suggests he made poor calls with
Ball
Armitage
Steven
Lynch

All while they were at StK

Stars lived him and sang from his hymn book

Developing players and fringe VFL players thought he was a c***!

So in hindsight Ross made mistakes (I assume you are stating) by not playing Armitage, Steven & Lynch?

If that is the case I agree (in hindsight) they should have played earlier or been given more opportunity to cement a position.

But then you are knocking him for playing Phillipou. Isn’t playing Phillipou even though probably not ready, but for the benefit of the future exactly what you think (in hindsight) he should have done with Armitage, Steven & Lynch?

Were you stating in 09 when we won what 19 straight that he should have been playing the above 3 or particularly Armo wh played a fair bit in 08.

Hindsight is easy, but eating one’s cake and having it to is actually not possible.

I don't think Ross started this year with a plan to play Pou for every game. It was just circumstances...and a cunning way for RTB to quell his critics

Ross knows that one of the main areas of criticism regarding his early coaching career at St Kilda was the lack of love for young draftees.

I think he wasn't planning on playing Pou every game this year but with injuries to King and Membrey and then the early suspension of Caminiti for 3 weeks, he had no choice.

I think he was pleasantly surprised by how well his youngsters performed and I think he knew that the path forward for the team (and the club's chances of securing a 2nd premiership) lay in the hands of this young group.

Naturally, you have to keep showing faith in Nasiah, Pou, Caminiti, Owens and Byrnes as he did. He also couldn't ignore the form of Windy at Sandy. These guys were going to a play a big part in our future.

Only Byrnes fell out of favour when Ross could see that the fans and members and the players all wanted desperately to play finals again.

So, I believe Ross had an each way bet. He dropped Byrnes. He wanted to play Billings and Membrey and Jones and other senior players who got a couple of games under their belt at Sandringham but unfortunately they broke down...as did Sebby a couple of times

He then figured out that if he played Phillipou for every game this year... he could never again be accused of favouring senior players

[Killa]

I have a recollection that Billings broke his hand late in a season already curtailed by injuries.

When he came back, wearing a protective glove, Lyon lauded the modern player returning so quickly from a broken hand.

Billings may well have done himself no good by coming back so soon from the hand break.

What I do recall is Billings running the wings, including taking marks deep in defence and under pressure plus his ball usage, except on goal which was variable for a player so good with the ball elsewhere around the ground.

So why as "small forward"?

His Manager has been on his case of inclusion in the St Kilda side and/or class available to other sides for some period of time. That case has been spoken to by his Manager publicly. And the Manager's promotion has not seen any other Club saying they will chase Billings (as far as reported by media, if you trust media past being publicity seekers looking for a headline).

For what reason is the Manager presenting as he is and has done for some time?

The good thing from a St Kilda perspective is that we are establishing depth, players such as Billings, Coffield, Membrey and others not automatic walk ups if fit - so they need to establish that they are fit and in form at Sandringham to challenge for selection.

I still go back to us requiring Ruck back up for Marshall (Heath?), KPP defensive back up for Howard (noting Adams has been let go but Van Es remains), back up support for King (noting Caminiti and Keeler where we have fingers crossed) and a classy, goal scoring mid (so an upgrade on Gresham?) not currently on our List.

And there may be some moving of the deck chairs with the likes of Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Windhager and Phillipou (plus who we Draft) as these youngsters gain match day experience and develop physically.

I would also be looking at how we use King with his height and athletic prowess (noting Marshall)

[loris]

I have a theory on why Pou was given games, when clearly his form didn’t warrant it towards the end of the season. He looked like he was running in quicksand in the final 4-5 games. Plus his defensive game was abysmal, doesn’t chase (maybe that’s because he’s not that quick or have the power, endurance in his legs. Waves an arm out if an opposition player runs off from him. Doesn’t attempt to chase & tackle.
Now I admit he is only young & doesn’t have strength & enduance of a seasoned AFL playe as yet. He is good in close with getting handballs out & appears to have a footy brain & quick instincts. Can take the odd speccy & is a beautiful kick. So he sure shows some promise.

Like many on here I thought he was being ‘gifted’ games when his ‘potential’ was wavering in the latter part of the season
My theory ( I’m ready for the knives in my back fellas), they want the kids signature to extend his contract beyond the 2 years.
If you listen to all of his interviews, the lad has a sizable ego. Plus dad has one hell of an influence on him. He says he speaks to his dad by phone a number of times a week. I hear him saying ‘Dad tells me what I’ve done right or could improve upon. Dad tells me to have confidence to go for more big marks’. Dad flies to see most of his games in Melbourne. In the interviews you don’t hear him in interviews say the coaches ( Harvey) tell him to go for the big marks. It’s dad this, dad that.
So my out of left theory is, play the kid whether he deserves a game or not - they want his signature on a contact, sooner rather than it dragging out. Dont want Dad blowing in his ear to return to SA as soon as his 2 years are up.
Whatcha think on my theory fellows? Go easy on me pl

[CQ SAINT]

I have a theory on why Pou was given games, when clearly his form didn’t warrant it towards the end of the season. He looked like he was running in quicksand in the final 4-5 games. Plus his defensive game was abysmal, doesn’t chase (maybe that’s because he’s not that quick or have the power, endurance in his legs. Waves an arm out if an opposition player runs off from him. Doesn’t attempt to chase & tackle.
Now I admit he is only young & doesn’t have strength & enduance of a seasoned AFL playe as yet. He is good in close with getting handballs out & appears to have a footy brain & quick instincts. Can take the odd speccy & is a beautiful kick. So he sure shows some promise.

Like many on here I thought he was being ‘gifted’ games when his ‘potential’ was wavering in the latter part of the season
My theory ( I’m ready for the knives in my back fellas), they want the kids signature to extend his contract beyond the 2 years.
If you listen to all of his interviews, the lad has a sizable ego. Plus dad has one hell of an influence on him. He says he speaks to his dad by phone a number of times a week. I hear him saying ‘Dad tells me what I’ve done right or could improve upon. Dad tells me to have confidence to go for more big marks’. Dad flies to see most of his games in Melbourne. In the interviews you don’t hear him in interviews say the coaches ( Harvey) tell him to go for the big marks. It’s dad this, dad that.
So my out of left theory is, play the kid whether he deserves a game or not - they want his signature on a contact, sooner rather than it dragging out. Dont want Dad blowing in his ear to return to SA as soon as his 2 years are up.
Whatcha think on my theory fellows? Go easy on me pl

I think it was dad who suggested he move to Melb to get the full opportunity and he stated very early days once at the club he wants to be a one club player.

I also thought we had protected him from the media in 2023, there doesn't seem to be that many interviews from 2023. Not as many as I thought we might get