The Worst Place To Be

[Vortex]

Chris Scott said…

“The worst place to be clearly in today’s competition is the middle of the road because you get nothing.“

Ironically I actually would rather be in Norths position over the next few years than as ours as they will leap frog us now with the AFL assistance.

I have felt for some time now that the only way poor clubs have any chance of contending is to bottom out hard. And history is our evidence.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck, even some magic over these next few years at the trading table if we are any chance of rising above middle of the ladder.

[66Iwasthere]

Welcome to our world Chris

[Beno88]

Really? You'd rather have lost 20 straight than play a final at the MCG?

Each to their own.

We'll be back in the top four long before North.

[Vortex]

Really? You'd rather have lost 20 straight than play a final at the MCG?

Each to their own.

We'll be back in the top four long before North.

I’d rather a flag than being a perennial middle of the ladder side like North were before this current bottom out and like what we are now.

Can’t see us being top 4 without some amazing luck at the trade table over the next 3 years. It could happen but history AND the system is against us.

[B.M]

When’s the last time North played in a GF

Let alone won a premiership

99

24 years ago - thanks to Wayne Carey

Going to the bottom - never guarantees a rise to the top

[Otiman]

Didn't work for us before, and there won't be preferential treatment like we got in the early 00s anymore.

[Vortex]

When’s the last time North played in a GF

Let alone won a premiership

99

24 years ago - thanks to Wayne Carey

Going to the bottom - never guarantees a rise to the top

The worst place to be on the ladder especially when you are a poor club like ours, a lot of similarities between us< North and Melbourne in that regard especially considering Melbourne are only enjoying being a top 4 side as a result of staying at the bottom, AFL came in and helped them, they are now coming in and helping North.

Our history also proves we are incapable of becoming a contender with out the so called "manipulation" by the AFL as discussed between Ross Lyon and Chris Scott.

Been saying since Lyon came back, what's his magic trick? what is his trick that no other coach has had in the 150 year history of our club in regards to procuring a flag capable list?

We will only know the answer to that in about 3 to 4 years time but it you see how it's easy to be skeptical.

Need luck at the next 3 drafts.

[Vortex]

Didn't work for us before, and there won't be preferential treatment like we got in the early 00s anymore.

almost did,and don't kid yourself, we wouldn't have ever got into those GFs without the preferential treatment.

[Scollop]

Chris Scott said…

“The worst place to be clearly in today’s competition is the middle of the road because you get nothing.“

Ironically I actually would rather be in Norths position over the next few years than as ours as they will leap frog us now with the AFL assistance.

I have felt for some time now that the only way poor clubs have any chance of contending is to bottom out hard. And history is our evidence.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck, even some magic over these next few years at the trading table if we are any chance of rising above middle of the ladder.

Well done on starting this thread. Scott also added a few other tasty bites. He said “It was their choice to go down that path” of bottomming out. They chose to get rid of most of their senior players. Why reward them even more for it? The competition already does that with a better draft pick.

He said that it wasn’t that long ago that North Melbourne were playing off in consecutive finals series between 2014-2016. They played in a prelim in 2015.

He said that there’s usually a lag with how a team develops and even though right now it may seem that North need assistance, you’ll find that they’re building a war chest of top ten draft picks and in a couple years time they could quickly climb the ladder.

He implied that Clarko is getting an unfair advantage. if North are a power club in 3 years time that the AFL won’t turn around and ‘take’ any of their concessions back.

[The Fireman]

Here
After a loss

[Vortex]

Chris Scott said…

“The worst place to be clearly in today’s competition is the middle of the road because you get nothing.“

Ironically I actually would rather be in Norths position over the next few years than as ours as they will leap frog us now with the AFL assistance.

I have felt for some time now that the only way poor clubs have any chance of contending is to bottom out hard. And history is our evidence.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck, even some magic over these next few years at the trading table if we are any chance of rising above middle of the ladder.

Well done on starting this thread. Scott also added a few other tasty bites. He said “It was their choice to go down that path” of bottomming out. They chose to get rid of most of their senior players. Why reward them even more for it? The competition already does that with a better draft pick.

He said that it wasn’t that long ago that North Melbourne were playing off in consecutive finals series between 2014-2016. They played in a prelim in 2015.

He said that there’s usually a lag with how a team develops and even though right now it may seem that North need assistance, you’ll find that they’re building a war chest of top ten draft picks and in a couple years time they could quickly climb the ladder.

He implied that Clarko is getting an unfair advantage. if North are a power club in 3 years time that the AFL won’t turn around and ‘take’ any of their concessions back.

Your'e welcome, so do you think we can avoid the same route as North and Melbourne, and us back in the early 2000s?

Do you think we finally have in place the tools in place at the club to procure a list that can compete without bottoming out? If so how many trade periods/years do you think we will need? My guess is at least 3 and that assumes that each year we can bring in at least 2 bonafide A graders per year and 2 x B graders capable of becoming GF types. I think we are about 10 to 12 short, which assumes we obviously lose players in over that duration.

[Scollop]

Chris Scott said…

“The worst place to be clearly in today’s competition is the middle of the road because you get nothing.“

Ironically I actually would rather be in Norths position over the next few years than as ours as they will leap frog us now with the AFL assistance.

I have felt for some time now that the only way poor clubs have any chance of contending is to bottom out hard. And history is our evidence.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck, even some magic over these next few years at the trading table if we are any chance of rising above middle of the ladder.

Well done on starting this thread. Scott also added a few other tasty bites. He said “It was their choice to go down that path” of bottomming out. They chose to get rid of most of their senior players. Why reward them even more for it? The competition already does that with a better draft pick.

He said that it wasn’t that long ago that North Melbourne were playing off in consecutive finals series between 2014-2016. They played in a prelim in 2015.

He said that there’s usually a lag with how a team develops and even though right now it may seem that North need assistance, you’ll find that they’re building a war chest of top ten draft picks and in a couple years time they could quickly climb the ladder.

He implied that Clarko is getting an unfair advantage. if North are a power club in 3 years time that the AFL won’t turn around and ‘take’ any of their concessions back.

Your'e welcome, so do you think we can avoid the same route as North and Melbourne, and us back in the early 2000s?

Do you think we finally have in place the tools in place at the club to procure a list that can compete without bottoming out? If so how many trade periods/years do you think we will need? My guess is at least 3 and that assumes that each year we can bring in at least 2 bonafide A graders per year and 2 x B graders capable of becoming GF types. I think we are about 10 to 12 short, which assumes we obviously lose players in over that duration.

I wanted us to do a full rebuild going back to 2015* (see link). We clung to our ageing stars for far too long between 2014-2017. 2018 gave us good reason to bite the bullet and bottom out for at least a couple of years. Lethlean and the board didn't think the same.

2017-2020 we just weren't ready to challenge but we wasted those years topping up and using draft picks on established or senior players.

2020 was good for fans and the club short term but it set us back. Port Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, GWS and Carlton have gone past us. Next year it could be Adelaide, Essendon, The Bulldogs, Hawthorn and Gold Coast.

I hope it only takes 3 years, but I have a feeling it'll take 5 or more before we are in the conversation as a top 4 team.

We need a lot of luck with trades, drafting, the coaching team staying together, and key players staying injury free if we happen to steal a flag in the next 5 years

I think we have learnt from mistakes from the past. I think we we won't try and take short cuts. I think we have the right culture and structures in place. I think we have the right leadership on field and off field.

I did a search with the keyword "rebuild" and had a read through some old threads. Here's one you'd be familiar with.

viewtopic.php?p=1489685#p1489685

[The Fireman]

[skeptic]

No way would I want to be in North’s position. Terrible call IMO

[SinCitySainter]

We are in the worst place a poor club with no recruiting power can be. We have access to top end talent and have no way to bring it in unless we are willing to pay way over the top. We play a style of football that at times has bordered on the unwatchable. We have a coach with a proven record if he is handed a team full of A grade talent but no history of achieving anything with lesser lists and certainly never built a list. Why anyone is positive about where we are going is beyond me? I am beyond caring if we are successful as I have followed the club for so long that it is now only about the experience. I really give credit to anyone that thinks we are heading in the right direction and hope your right but I can't see how.

[desertsaint]

geesus. play finals and some are all 'woe is us' - should've lost every game and back it up for another few years.

[SinCitySainter]

I am not woe is me at all. I enjoyed going to the football this year and I will enjoy next year not because I expect us to perform well because I simply don't. We are a mid table team and that is where we are destined to stay because we have no access to the talent we need to improve. It is just football it is not that important and sometimes things are simpler when you manage your expectations.

[St Plugger]

I've written this comment before but there are about !0 Milllion [or is it now 6 Million] reasons why St Kilda can't bottom out, well at least in the near to medium future. Being at least a middle of the road team and maybe playing in the finals gives them the opportunity to get decent levels of sponsorship and other avenues to pay down the debt, built up primarily because of a succession of poorly performing years and equally poor management. [And as a consequence, mediocre at best sponsorship associations.]
North, to their credit, are debt free and financially secure, so they can literally afford to bottom out.
Put simply, St Kilda, at present, can't!

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Priority picks in 2000, followed by a bonus number one pick in 2002 when Carlton was penalised, set us up for years.

[WellardSaint]

Will Tasmania get all the top picks like Giants did when they started? Or am I living in the wrong multiverse?

[meher baba]

I suspect that the extra help for North could possibly come at a price: ie, they will have to move to Hobart (but obviously the AFL won't want to start a fight about this until the off-season).

The club attracts bugger all supporters even when it is going well. And there's a lot of doubt as to whether the Hobart club can legally call itself the Tassie Devils and, given that cricket has snared the Tasmanian Tiger, there isn't another obvious name going around: the basketball team was forced to name itself after a type of ant FFS! So perhaps the Tassie Kangaroos: perhaps a bit bizarre, given that we don't have any ridgey didge kangaroos down here (only wallabies and padmelons).

It seems to me to be the obvious solution. The Roos staved off a move to the Gold Coast a few years back, but is there really much fight left there for another battle?

[Vortex]

Will Tasmania get all the top picks like Giants did when they started? Or am I living in the wrong multiverse?

GCSs and GWS entered the competition in 2011, that was the end of the Lyon era MK1.

Tasmania will enter the comp in 2026 and will receive draft concessions far in excess of those given to GCS and GWS when they entered the competition in 2011.

Being a middle of the ladder team will be even harder to build a list capable of challenging.

[meher baba]

The AFL's decision re North Melbourne is not fair (unless my conspiracy theory about a subsequent move to Tassie is correct). What the Roos desperately need is not more good players, but more fans. They were doing quite well in the mid-2010s, and still nobody came to watch them.

But it would be no good whatsoever for us to chase the same rewards. The priority right now is to keep trying to improve and increase our membership and fan base. I assume that's why we recruited Lyon as our coach. If we had wanted to bottom out and completely rebuild, we'd be better off with someone like Harvey or Enright.

This was the strategy back in the early 2000s as well. The early draft picks were great, but we were extremely lucky to pick up so many talented players with them: fans like to dream that of scenarios in which we took Judd ahead of Ball, but there are also conceivable scenarios in which the AFL could have determined that Riewoldt would play for the Lions and that Carlton kept its #1 draft pick and selected Goddard. In the end, we recruited such a bunch of stars (including Dal Santo, Fisher and Montagna further down the draft) that we became contenders. But there was never any guarantee that that would happen.

And there's little possibiility of this scenario happening again. If we now decide to adopt a deliberate strategy of heading for the bottom of the table, the AFL wouldn't reward us and might seriously consider kicking us out of the competition.

And I reckon it's crap that we are a dozen good players away from becoming a premiership side. In the mid-2010s, the Lions were rubbish and the Pies mediocre. Now, without either club having engaged in a full scale slash-and-burn, they are both playing in a GF on Saturday. And I'd suggest that, even now, neither club has a stellar list compared to some we have seen in recent decades: eg, the Lions in the early 2000s, us in the second half of the 2000s, or the Hawks and Cats from the same period and beyond.

If we can somehow find 2 really good midfielders with a bit of creative flair (perhaps even internally: eg Windhager and Phillipou), and we have a better run with injuries this year, we would be a serious contender next year. Some of you are absurdly pessimistic.

[Vortex]

Some of you are absurdly pessimistic.

You say pessimistic I say realistic, our 150 year history supports my realism, what have you seen or heard from anyone at the club in recent times that makes you think they have discovered the magic trick to overcome the “system” that a significant amount of many others have failed to find?

The “system” is against those in the middle of the ladder.

Again what have your heard from the club that makes you think they have discovered the Da Vinci Code?

[The Fireman]

The da Vinci code is in RTBs pocket
Footscray were middle of the road and won a flag

Meher is right ,the worst place to be is here sometimes reading the undue negativity by some on here especially you ,it’s depressing and I’m sure you’re happy to drag everyone down with you
I come on here to get the info and goss,you come on here to tell everyone how badly we are travelling
I’m really looking forward to playing final’s again next season