The Silence: AFL’s Last Taboo

[Saintmatt]

To paraphrase the view from an ex-player I know well who is gay: -

"I didn't care if my family and friends knew or didn't know I was gay. I didn't care what my teammates knew or didn't know and the majority definitely knew I was gay. I never actually came out - it was just a thing that everyone kind of knew. And if anyone had've asked me directly whether I was gay - I would've answered honestly anyway. I was never hiding anything. But the big problem with this issue was not my club; it's the media. I felt entirely secure and supported by the club - I just didn't want to become the media poster boy for some kind of movement that I didn't start nor wanted to front. I just never wanted to be in a position where I'd be in the media for anything other than my footy and I didn't want any statements I made in the future to be viewed through the lens of me just happening to like dudes."

He's a really likeable, understated guy who clearly has a brain and thinks deeply about this stuff.

Probably the saddest thing he's ever said to me about this stuff is how he can't understand how the media views the AFLM side of the game completely differently to the AFLW side of the game (which has a large number of openly gay players)

[older saint]

Media always looking for a pin up boy, especially in this society we currently have . It is no ones business but their own , and really who cares. Like ma y have said there are openly gay AFLW, Soccer Mne and Women, Netball and NBL & WNBL, but not openly AFL - and the only logical reason is the way the media would run with it. Footballers make good money already, and being the first to come out would be a cash cow for that person, no doubt, but players now days clearly value their privacy more and more .
What annoys me is the media and commentators/journos assuming that is is acceptance which is the issue as opposed to looking in the mirror at the invasion of privacy which will follow from them.

[Sainternist]

The left are obsessed with sexuality just look what thay teach kids in primary school these days ..

Goodness me, what a terrible thing it is to be speaking openly about sexuality! A shame it isn’t still like the old days, when it was best to just keep it all to yourself and have everyone just repress it. Just shut up, go to church and don’t question anything. Ah, the good old days! Those pesky lefties, eh?

[magnifisaint]

I don't think it matters as long as the Saints win a premiership.
Typical narrow minded journalism.

[1966]

Milligan happy to praise the Qatar Airways sponsored Swans without seeing the hypocrisy.
Gutter commentator (not a journalist) who St Kilda should never speak to.

[SaintPav]

The left are obsessed with sexuality just look what thay teach kids in primary school these days ..

And what do they teach kids in primary school?

Gender is a social construct and you can be whatever sex you feel like.

[SaintPav]

Milligan happy to praise the Qatar Airways sponsored Swans without seeing the hypocrisy.
Gutter commentator (not a journalist) who St Kilda should never speak to.

Qatar is a gulf state and an important allie (client state) so we look the other way.

[asiu]

Gender is a social construct and you can be whatever sex you feel like.

good

i've always desired to be a Sister

[The G Train Legacy]

The left are obsessed with sexuality just look what thay teach kids in primary school these days ..

And what do they teach kids in primary school?

Gender is a social construct and you can be whatever sex you feel like.

Which goes way beyond the "birds and the bees" and is destructive bulls***.

You may teach kids, in consultation with their parents, an overview of what sex is, its biological purpose and that it needs to be consensual. You can say that most people are attracted to the opposite sex, some the same sex, some both and that's fine.

However, when you tell them that sex and gender are fluid, well that's abuse and grooming.

[The G Train Legacy]

I've always wondered why an AFL player is yet to come out. There are about 800 AFL players, a number of them must be gay.

I don't believe it has anything to do with social attitudes today and is a bit of a mystery.

[shanegrambeau]

Media always looking for a pin up boy, especially in this society we currently have . It is no ones business but their own , and really who cares. Like ma y have said there are openly gay AFLW, Soccer Mne and Women, Netball and NBL & WNBL, but not openly AFL - and the only logical reason is the way the media would run with it. Footballers make good money already, and being the first to come out would be a cash cow for that person, no doubt, but players now days clearly value their privacy more and more .
What annoys me is the media and commentators/journos assuming that is is acceptance which is the issue as opposed to looking in the mirror at the invasion of privacy which will follow from them.

Great post

people and organizations fall over themselves to say things like,

Organization: 'We are an inclusive organization"..."We support the right to choose.."
People: " Me? ...I don't mind what people do. It is their choice"..."I don't discriminate like that"..." I'm not judgmental.."

They are just credentialing themselves..protecting themselves too..

And they d give a s*** about people at all, even if they consciously think they do.


What they really mean is that the stigma is as strong as ever, hence the need to politicize and posture about it.

[Sebastian Tombs]

Did anyone see Monday night’s episode of 4 Corners?

I just watched it on iview. And I gotta say, it’s a slightly troubling report. I realise the issue makes a few people in this forum uncomfortable, but I couldn’t care less. I, for one, think it’s an abomination that the AFL is a professional sporting league where any player who is gay can’t feel comfortable about who they are and has to live his public life in the closet.

According to 4 Corners journalist Louise Milligan, none of the clubs in the AFL were comfortable in discussing the issue with her during the production of the story. I feel slightly disappointed with the St.Kilda F.C. for being one of those clubs. After all, we have been one of the clubs to participate in the Pride Match since 2016. Geez! Even the likes of Eddie McGuire has been a proponent over the years in wanting to stamp out homophobia in our game!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-21/ ... /102757092

NO ONE CARES WHO JACK STEELE f****!

[asiu]

and just to stay on topic
thats a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence

(for anyone wondering)

[asiu]

What is the fluidity of sex and gender?
The concept of sexual fluidity means that sexuality can change over time and in different situations. ‌For example, you may identify as straight but develop an attraction to someone who is genderqueer. You may or may not act on that attraction.

that just seems like freedom of choice to me
and meeting Life openly in the moment

whats the problem ?

[Scollop]

Did anyone see Monday night’s episode of 4 Corners?

I just watched it on iview. And I gotta say, it’s a slightly troubling report. I realise the issue makes a few people in this forum uncomfortable, but I couldn’t care less. I, for one, think it’s an abomination that the AFL is a professional sporting league where any player who is gay can’t feel comfortable about who they are and has to live his public life in the closet.

According to 4 Corners journalist Louise Milligan, none of the clubs in the AFL were comfortable in discussing the issue with her during the production of the story. I feel slightly disappointed with the St.Kilda F.C. for being one of those clubs. After all, we have been one of the clubs to participate in the Pride Match since 2016. Geez! Even the likes of Eddie McGuire has been a proponent over the years in wanting to stamp out homophobia in our game!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-21/ ... /102757092

NO ONE CARES WHO JACK STEELE f****!

There are rumours around about several players who most in the industry know that they are gay. Jack Steele is NOT one of them

I don’t understand what you're trying to tell us. Try and learn how to communicate a message you wish to convey.

No one cares for your shouting f***wit.

[D.B.Cooper]

To paraphrase the view from an ex-player I know well who is gay: -

"I didn't care if my family and friends knew or didn't know I was gay. I didn't care what my teammates knew or didn't know and the majority definitely knew I was gay. I never actually came out - it was just a thing that everyone kind of knew. And if anyone had've asked me directly whether I was gay - I would've answered honestly anyway. I was never hiding anything. But the big problem with this issue was not my club; it's the media. I felt entirely secure and supported by the club - I just didn't want to become the media poster boy for some kind of movement that I didn't start nor wanted to front. I just never wanted to be in a position where I'd be in the media for anything other than my footy and I didn't want any statements I made in the future to be viewed through the lens of me just happening to like dudes."

He's a really likeable, understated guy who clearly has a brain and thinks deeply about this stuff.

Probably the saddest thing he's ever said to me about this stuff is how he can't understand how the media views the AFLM side of the game completely differently to the AFLW side of the game (which has a large number of openly gay players)

Great post!

I really think this would be the sticking point should a player wish to declare they were gay.

The media circus would be unbearable for the player.

[CQ SAINT]

I played football with 5 guys who I was aware were gay over 26 years of Senior football.

One of them wore dresses and fake breasts occasionally when he went out. But usually he appeared quite masculine.

On the field, he was fearless, tough and aggressive. He was also a very well respected Paramedic and a volunteer Fireman. He cut his own path and I'd fight side by side with him, no worries.

I also worked with dozens of men in prison who were gay. They weren't feminine types, but were treated as such, in prison. It seems that heterosexuals are still tied up by gender roles, when there are no women folk around.

[shanegrambeau]

As I wrote earlier (and deleted , cos I thought it was too strong) ..

It is the labeling …

It is like the Nazis forcing Jews to wear Star of David arm bands… a little , but not as bad of course…

It’s so easy to say , Oh I don’t mind..I knew this guy , and that guy…didn’t bother me….

bulls***!!

The stigma would bother you big time…

And so it should..

Why..

Because it’s for life…there is no ‘freedom’…there is no turning back…for you and for your kids..your wife..or would be and could be..

It is cancel culture on an epic scale of its own…

All nicely gift wrapped.. in politically splattered paper..with a ribbon..and a box of chocolates….good bye..you’re out…‘I’m so happy and proud for you..”

Once less competitor leaves the office!

And you will used as a pinup too, exploited..

Sorry..I find it offensive to hear people so proudly say they are not judgmental …we are judgmental by dint of being animal…and we will sort each other out, by bullying and qualifying each other from the sandpit in kinda until the day we die…and others will qualify us even after that!!

And we qualify ourselves too…by pointing out this and that about others…

[CQ SAINT]

As I wrote earlier (and deleted , cos I thought it was too strong) ..

It is the labeling …

It is like the Nazis forcing Jews to wear Star of David arm bands… a little , but not as bad of course…

It’s so easy to say , Oh I don’t mind..I knew this guy , and that guy…didn’t bother me….

bulls***!!

The stigma would bother you big time…

And so it should..

Why..

Because it’s for life…there is no ‘freedom’…there is no turning back…for you and for your kids..your wife..or would be and could be..

It is cancel culture on an epic scale of its own…

All nicely gift wrapped.. in politically splattered paper..with a ribbon..and a box of chocolates….good bye..you’re out…‘I’m so happy and proud for you..”

Once less competitor leaves the office!

And you will used as a pinup too, exploited..

Sorry..I find it offensive to hear people so proudly say they are not judgmental …we are judgmental by dint of being animal…and we will sort each other out, by bullying and qualifying each other from the sandpit in kinda until the day we die…and others will qualify us even after that!!

And we qualify ourselves too…by pointing out this and that about others…

It's the labelling? I'm not affected by the heterosexual label. I don't get it.

[CQ SAINT]

As I wrote earlier (and deleted , cos I thought it was too strong) ..

It is the labeling …

It is like the Nazis forcing Jews to wear Star of David arm bands… a little , but not as bad of course…

It’s so easy to say , Oh I don’t mind..I knew this guy , and that guy…didn’t bother me….

bulls***!!

The stigma would bother you big time…

And so it should..

Why..

Because it’s for life…there is no ‘freedom’…there is no turning back…for you and for your kids..your wife..or would be and could be..

It is cancel culture on an epic scale of its own…

All nicely gift wrapped.. in politically splattered paper..with a ribbon..and a box of chocolates….good bye..you’re out…‘I’m so happy and proud for you..”

Once less competitor leaves the office!

And you will used as a pinup too, exploited..

Sorry..I find it offensive to hear people so proudly say they are not judgmental …we are judgmental by dint of being animal…and we will sort each other out, by bullying and qualifying each other from the sandpit in kinda until the day we die…and others will qualify us even after that!!

And we qualify ourselves too…by pointing out this and that about others…

I'm also brown skinned, well kind of caramel, I have a big boong nose and fuzzy hair. I'm not black, I am not enslaved, I earn a fair bit more than the average wage earner and the last stereotype I worried about was a Sony.

I'm judgemental. I never said I'm not judgmental. I've met lots of folk I don't want to associate with. But being gay ain't one of the reasons.

[shanegrambeau]

‘Being gay’ is the label right there….

I know, I know, I hear ya..

Let me say, or rather ask, can you really decide about what you are judgmental about? Can you control it? Are you fully cognizant of it?
I don’t think you are, or any of us are, and we are certainly not in control of how others respond, and how group and social and political dynamics play out. A mob..

I don’t like the OP.

The ‘silence’ accusation….like a dark and dirty secret is ‘lurking’….that is itself like a kid just baying for blood too.. that is the beast in us..looking for a courthouse, to drag the guilty and the victims out into the town square, for us to gaze down upon and judge..

Let it be..

Why all the posturing now?
It is for good reason, right?
Can’t be helped. Fair enough.
We don’t wanna go back to 19 sixty something.

I just think Sexuality is not, or should not be a GPS ‘marking’, nor is it permanent or ‘decided’..that’s what I think..let it fly ..where it flys..

You are judgmental about sexuality, very much so…we all are..and we know the damage..intuitively…

But society pressures people to ‘decide’ and hence ‘label’..they even push the ‘badge of honour’..
Again. For good reason, explainable ..but it is not good.
We won’t live long enough to know a better way..
,

[shanegrambeau]

‘Being gay’ is the label right there….

I know, I know, I hear ya..

Let me say, or rather ask, can you really decide about what you are judgmental about? Can you control it? Are you fully cognizant of it?
I don’t think you are, or any of us are, and we are certainly not in control of how others respond, and how group and social and political dynamics play out. A mob..

I don’t like the OP.

The ‘silence’ accusation….like a dark and dirty secret is ‘lurking’….that is itself like a kid just baying for blood too.. that is the beast in us..looking for a courthouse, to drag the guilty and the victims out into the town square, for us to gaze down upon and judge..

Let it be..

Why all the posturing now?
It is for good reason, right?
Can’t be helped. Fair enough.
We don’t wanna go back to 19 sixty something.

I just think Sexuality is not, or should not be a GPS ‘marking’, nor is it permanent or ‘decided’..that’s what I think..let it fly ..where it flys..

You are judgmental about sexuality, very much so…we all are..and we know the damage..intuitively…?
But society pressures people to ‘decide’ and hence ‘label’..they even push the ‘badge of honour’..
We feel much better if ‘we know’ …who is who…’I don’t mind’ (sub text…as long as they ‘admit it’) are you kidding? Go tell your boss you are bisexual.or your wife…or us here on this forum.
Some one will pop up and say, ‘I already did SG’..and then what?
Are we all free now?
Ｗe are briefly soothed…we have an honorable representative of our acceptance? Or theirs? And we feel better if we can point a stick at the devil, who is naturally the person, a protagonist of sorts, of the ‘old establishment’ and their evil lies.
So we feel better , briefly.

Now try it yourself.
What is easier?
Saying that ?
Or
Saying ‘I don’t judge’ .
Again. For good reason, explainable ..but it is not good, in a ‘good way’ if that makes sense. As far as I can see.
Being a basket case of a contrarian doesn’t help me make any case.
For racism , I am equally as difficult and I most and I most definitely am judgmental about race, as I believe we all are..in terrible and automatic ways.
When I see ‘I hate racists’ stickers, I know they mean well, but they seem so ignorant to me.
We won’t live long enough to know a better way..

That’s how I feel about it at this point..progress but fake progress, but progress.
,

[lewdogs]

The left are obsessed with sexuality just look what thay teach kids in primary school these days ..

Haha what utter tripe. You sound like a fossil.

[Munga]

Why don't the men in the AFL media come out? Statistically speaking there would be a few. Why don't men in any organisation come out? Why does it even matter?

I couldn't give a damn. Live and let live. It my world, it just doesn't matter. We're all just getting through life for the short time we're here, why the hell is orientation even perceived as an "issue"? Just live FFS! The real crisis is with the number of braincells in the people who have a problem with it.

[SaintPav]

What is the fluidity of sex and gender?
The concept of sexual fluidity means that sexuality can change over time and in different situations. ‌For example, you may identify as straight but develop an attraction to someone who is genderqueer. You may or may not act on that attraction.

that just seems like freedom of choice to me
and meeting Life openly in the moment

whats the problem ?

Let’s see how that works out for civilisation…