Ross Lyon’s year of experimentation

[Vortex]

You watch the fanboys turn quicker than a curious man who mistakenly wandered into the Blue Oyster Bar.

I won't, I'll be backing Ross until he's no longer the coach, I just hope the club don't stuff it up and sack him when Fox Footy turn on him.

I also hope the club finds the magic trick for recruitment...that's the big issue now, not who the coach is.

Amen to that. Please no more recruitment stuff ups.

A strategy that is multi layered and doesn’t include quick fixes would be a good start

[Vortex]

You watch the fanboys turn quicker than a curious man who mistakenly wandered into the Blue Oyster Bar.

I won't, I'll be backing Ross until he's no longer the coach, I just hope the club don't stuff it up and sack him when Fox Footy turn on him.

I also hope the club finds the magic trick for recruitment...that's the big issue now, not who the coach is.

Amen to that. Please no more recruitment stuff ups.

A strategy that is multi layered and doesn’t include quick fixes would be a good start

[saynta]

Geez some people spout some crap.

We have only played 3 new players this year because of this (well said cwrcyn):

Yes, we've only used 31 players. So who didn't get a gig?


McKenzie: Injured all yer
Hotton: First year player injured most of the year
Keeler: First year player injured for half of the year
Campbell: Back up ruckman who hasn't been required
Van Es: First year player who has not overly impressed with his performances
Allison: injured for most of the year
Adams: Injured for first part of season. Not performing well enough to be played
Coffield: Injured for most or the year
Hayes: injured for most of the year
Heath: Young developing ruckman not required to play and probably not ready
Highmore: Good form in VFL. Probably deserved a chance at some stage
McLennan: First year player injured for most of the year
Connolly: Has been good (and ordinary) at times. Probably deserved a shot at some stage

Out of all those players only Highmore would have realistically been considered for selection. Most other players dealt with significant lay-offs due to injury and simply do not have either the fitness or the body of work to justify selection.

We know that if they were fit, McKenzie, Coffield, and Hayes would have played in the senior team. Hotton may have got 3 or 4 games.

Only Highmore, Campbell, and Connolly could have genuinely been considered for selection this season, and realistically it would only have been as a back up, as there are players in the seniors who already have their respective positions covered.


You can't explore the value of players if they are not available or don't have the requisite fitness level to play in the seniors. You can't select them if their VFL form is ordinary, either. Selection integrity, anyone?


Can't stick this one on the coach. It's just not logical to do so.

Sorry to spoil your party but that's wrong

You can't explore the value of players if they are not available

Jack Bytel only got 1 full game in Round 1. The team has not explored his value in the seniors. He continues to be named best on ground for Sandringham

Seb Ross had a run of poor form. Brad Crouch had a run of poor form. Jack Steele broke his collar bone.

During these periods where change was required (and plenty here were calling for it) there were 2 mids playing at Sandringham. Both have good attributes as midfielders and 1 is considered elite at winning contested ball on the inside - Bytel.

Instead of giving Jack and Marcus an extended opportunity, they were both played as sub when Steele was out and during Crouch's form slump. One got an opportunity and is now playing off a half back flank.

Bytel was available for at least 8-10 senior games and the coach chose to continue with the 3 amigos.

The apologists will twist the argument and say he's not good enough, but the whole thread is about experimentation. The post by cwrcyn implies he wasn't available after Round 1.

I personally feel like we missed out on seeing him in the seniors for an extended run and I personally feel our club will be the loser for not affording him the opportunity

Hope I'm wrong or hope he remains on the list and takes over from B Crouch

Spot on. Excellent post.

[shanegrambeau]

I don't know where this year of discovery/experimentation comes from, but it is just plain crap, bulls*** to keep the masses happy , if there is a lack of progress or success this year.

Saints have around 44 players on the list yet, Lyon and co have played only 31 players, the least number of any of the 18 clubs.

Richmond is next lowest but even they have played 35 players this year.

As I said, bulls***.

I heard the term assessment year, not experimentation, but whatever. Most RL haters don't use the 'h' term, but they may as well, because their posts don't fool anyone.

Not sound more boorish than the best of us, I agree with my friends here. I call complete BS on the experimentation meme. It is just bubble-gum/fairy floss to hand out to the punters (not that any would 'punt' on it)

But as a gambit in a thread, I say fair enough and it provokes an interesting discussion. And after all, if the club does hang it out there, we are entitled to have a ramble and and a rumble about it.
...and we will!

I think they have played Pou and Hammer far, far longer than a rationalist willing to put his or her house on the weekend's result could justify. If I was coach, they would have been dropped after 4 games.

I would have picked a reserve ruckman to help Marshall

On the other hand, picking Cordy , especially as a forward early, when he was lucky to get 5 possies tells me that the coaches considered the 'counter-balancer' for the 'experimentation/development' thing. Same for continuing with Ross whist trying Hunter on the ball vs keeping BYtel in the seconds.

I think the selcetion and non-selcetion of Paton and BYrnes have been most interesting. What do you lot reckon? What does that tell you about 'experimentation'?

[Sanctorum]

Not sound more boorish than the best of us, I agree with my friends here. I call complete BS on the experimentation meme. It is just bubble-gum/fairy floss to hand out to the punters (not that any would 'punt' on it)

But as a gambit in a thread, I say fair enough and it provokes an interesting discussion. And after all, if the club does hang it out there, we are entitled to have a ramble and and a rumble about it.
...and we will!

I think they have played Pou and Hammer far, far longer than a rationalist willing to put his or her house on the weekend's result could justify. If I was coach, they would have been dropped after 4 games.

I would have picked a reserve ruckman to help Marshall

On the other hand, picking Cordy , especially as a forward early, when he was lucky to get 5 possies tells me that the coaches considered the 'counter-balancer' for the 'experimentation/development' thing. Same for continuing with Ross whist trying Hunter on the ball vs keeping BYtel in the seconds.

I think the selcetion and non-selcetion of Paton and BYrnes have been most interesting. What do you lot reckon? What does that tell you about 'experimentation'?

Lyon quite reasonably, having been away from the main game for three years, stated that 2023 was a 'year of exploration' for him. I don't recall him ever using the word 'experimentation', there is a difference.

He has repeatedly said that he was relying heavily on his assistant coaches which obviously implies not just game plans but selection of players.

He has not shied away, as some thought he would, from playing the younger recruits, to the contrary as all three of last years draftees, Owens, Wanganeen Milera and Windhager have become automatic selections this year, and both Caminiti and Phillipou have done exceptionally well in many games.

That this has not included Jack Bytel, as some suggest he should have done is in my view more a case of a collective decision that Bytel is not up to the job, or at least not sufficiently well to force his way into the team.

Not playing a 'reserve ruckman' to assist Marshall is likewise indicative of their belief that currently the club does not have one capable of helping the gteam to win games.

A lot of supporters believe Marshall plays much better without another specialist ruckman in the side.

Paton and Byrnes non-selection has nothing to do with the 'exploration' question, they would be selected of they thought they were better than others in the team in similar positions.

[cwrcyn]

Paton was given many opportunities this year and, unfortunately, the issues he had in game one did not show any real improvement from then on (indecision, poor game sense, not knowing when and where to run in support of others)

Byrnes has played most of the season. He's been quite inconsistent, moreso within games rather from game to game. I remember Jack Sinclair being equally inconsistent at the same age. However, Sinclair showed more class. Byrnes lacks physical strength, and I think this doesn't help him. He'll never be a physically powerful player no matter how much work he puts in. He's a really hard worker and he's done some nice things at times and had some big quarters within games. There's still a question mark over him. Is he destined to be just a back up runner waiting for an injury to occur to get a call up?

Bytel was unlucky this year. When he got his chances he got immediately injured. He's very much running in the shadow of Brad Crouch, because that's the only player I can see him replacing. Bytel is an inside handball player with mediocre foot skills and no real leg speed. I know a few on here have been championing his cause, but there is little room for an additional slow, inside mid. Brad Crouch is a better player, as is Ross, as is Steele. Four never fits into three. Unfortunate for Bytel

[shanegrambeau]

Not sound more boorish than the best of us, I agree with my friends here. I call complete BS on the experimentation meme. It is just bubble-gum/fairy floss to hand out to the punters (not that any would 'punt' on it)

But as a gambit in a thread, I say fair enough and it provokes an interesting discussion. And after all, if the club does hang it out there, we are entitled to have a ramble and and a rumble about it.
...and we will!

....Pou and Hammer ... If I was coach, they would have been dropped after 4 games.

I would have picked a reserve ruckman to help Marshall

...Cordy...the 'counter-balancer' for the 'experimentation/development' thing. ...

...selection and non-selection of Paton and Byrnes have been most interesting. What do you lot reckon? ...

...A lot of supporters believe Marshall plays much better without another specialist ruckman in the side.

Paton and Byrnes non-selection has nothing to do with the 'exploration' question, ...

I also believe Marshall plays better alone, but I don't care about Marshall. Just my subjective impression, but I believe that St Kilda played better with Paddy and Holla. Marshall was less visible, less impactful perhaps, but in net terms, the whole team was better off with two. Now on those occasions when we had other fill-ins, less so, and hence, it is just rhetorical perhaps, because Paddy was an unexpected luxury and our reserve ruckman might not be (might not have been) - pardon the pun - a pinch on him.

[shanegrambeau]

Paton was given many opportunities this year and, unfortunately, the issues he had in game one did not show any real improvement from then on (indecision, poor game sense, not knowing when and where to run in support of others)

.. Byrnes lacks physical strength, ..

Bytel was unlucky .. mediocre foot skills and no real leg speed.... little room for an additional slow, inside mid. Brad Crouch is a better player.....

re Bytes;
Right O, fair enough...I try to keep that in mind when we turned down a chance to get Matt Crouch (last year? was it?)
re Paton;
I wasn't watching footy much when I (burst onto the scene! lol) came to this forum, but it seemed to me that Paton and Coffield were future 200 gamers, and that in these two, we had created an enviable, classy defence. Max Houghton and Luke Penny and Frankie Peckett and Tim Pekin etc. etc..all my favourites ..

But then enter, Jordan Roughleg.... the wrecker! Wheelin' the Wrecker! Destroyed that dream. And now we have him all over the field and as you suggest, being exposed.
As Ross Wilson said in his epic hit 'Blind Date'..a 'broken heart and shattered dreams, was all he had, and memories....

[B.M]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

[Scollop]

.....

Paton....

But then enter, Jordan Roughleg.... the wrecker!

Jarryd played for Hawthorn

Jordan (his cousin) played for Dogs and Collingwood

[saynta]

Paton was given many opportunities this year and, unfortunately, the issues he had in game one did not show any real improvement from then on (indecision, poor game sense, not knowing when and where to run in support of others)

.. Byrnes lacks physical strength, ..

Bytel was unlucky .. mediocre foot skills and no real leg speed.... little room for an additional slow, inside mid. Brad Crouch is a better player.....

re Bytes;
Right O, fair enough...I try to keep that in mind when we turned down a chance to get Matt Crouch (last year? was it?)
re Paton;
I wasn't watching footy much when I (burst onto the scene! lol) came to this forum, but it seemed to me that Paton and Coffield were future 200 gamers, and that in these two, we had created an enviable, classy defence. Max Houghton and Luke Penny and Frankie Peckett and Tim Pekin etc. etc..all my favourites ..

But then enter, Jordan Roughleg.... the wrecker! Wheelin' the Wrecker! Destroyed that dream. And now we have him all over the field and as you suggest, being exposed.
As Ross Wilson said in his epic hit 'Blind Date'..a 'broken heart and shattered dreams, was all he had, and memories....

Jordan? oh FFS.

and for the record it's Max Hudghton.

[nostalgicsaint]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

Imo Marshall and Ryder are the most capable forwards of the 6 rucks named.

[asiu]

broke Patons leg ... he is saying

[Scollop]

broke Patons leg ... he is saying

Unless you’re a Martian or….

You just happened to have recently stumbled onto this website, after recently deciding to support St Kilda FC

Yes… it was he who broke Patons leg.

I know what he was trying to say

…my personality compels me to correct him. I’m saving him from the potential of future embarrassment.

He was going to start a conversation talking about Saints players that might be be delisted in 2023 and he tries to explain that Ben had a good year in 2020 but that a bloke called Jordan Roughhead tackled him early in 2021 and Ben’s leg went snap

The other guy will look at him funny and ask if it was a practice game against Collingwood

[shanegrambeau]

Paton was given many opportunities this year and, unfortunately, the issues he had in game one did not show any real improvement from then on (indecision, poor game sense, not knowing when and where to run in support of others)

.. Byrnes lacks physical strength, ..

Bytel was unlucky .. mediocre foot skills and no real leg speed.... little room for an additional slow, inside mid. Brad Crouch is a better player.....

re Bytes;
Right O, fair enough...I try to keep that in mind when we turned down a chance to get Matt Crouch (last year? was it?)
re Paton;
I wasn't watching footy much when I (burst onto the scene! lol) came to this forum, but it seemed to me that Paton and Coffield were future 200 gamers, and that in these two, we had created an enviable, classy defence. Max Houghton and Luke Penny and Frankie Peckett and Tim Pekin etc. etc..all my favourites ..

But then enter, Jordan Roughleg.... the wrecker! Wheelin' the Wrecker! Destroyed that dream. And now we have him all over the field and as you suggest, being exposed.
As Ross Wilson said in his epic hit 'Blind Date'..a 'broken heart and shattered dreams, was all he had, and memories....

Jordan? oh FFS.

and for the record it's Max Hudghton.

a ha!!!

Scollop beat you too it!

na na ni na naaaaaa!!!!

[Teflon]

Not sound more boorish than the best of us, I agree with my friends here. I call complete BS on the experimentation meme. It is just bubble-gum/fairy floss to hand out to the punters (not that any would 'punt' on it)

But as a gambit in a thread, I say fair enough and it provokes an interesting discussion. And after all, if the club does hang it out there, we are entitled to have a ramble and and a rumble about it.
...and we will!

I think they have played Pou and Hammer far, far longer than a rationalist willing to put his or her house on the weekend's result could justify. If I was coach, they would have been dropped after 4 games.

I would have picked a reserve ruckman to help Marshall

On the other hand, picking Cordy , especially as a forward early, when he was lucky to get 5 possies tells me that the coaches considered the 'counter-balancer' for the 'experimentation/development' thing. Same for continuing with Ross whist trying Hunter on the ball vs keeping BYtel in the seconds.

I think the selcetion and non-selcetion of Paton and BYrnes have been most interesting. What do you lot reckon? What does that tell you about 'experimentation'?

Lyon quite reasonably, having been away from the main game for three years, stated that 2023 was a 'year of exploration' for him. I don't recall him ever using the word 'experimentation', there is a difference.

He has repeatedly said that he was relying heavily on his assistant coaches which obviously implies not just game plans but selection of players.

He has not shied away, as some thought he would, from playing the younger recruits, to the contrary as all three of last years draftees, Owens, Wanganeen Milera and Windhager have become automatic selections this year, and both Caminiti and Phillipou have done exceptionally well in many games.

That this has not included Jack Bytel, as some suggest he should have done is in my view more a case of a collective decision that Bytel is not up to the job, or at least not sufficiently well to force his way into the team.

Not playing a 'reserve ruckman' to assist Marshall is likewise indicative of their belief that currently the club does not have one capable of helping the gteam to win games.

A lot of supporters believe Marshall plays much better without another specialist ruckman in the side.

Paton and Byrnes non-selection has nothing to do with the 'exploration' question, they would be selected of they thought they were better than others in the team in similar positions.

Great post
Close thread

[Brunswicksainter]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

We are categorically better with Marshall as sole ruck. Ryder Marshall combo was disastrous for us in 2021 and 2022.

[CQ SAINT]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

We are categorically better with Marshall as sole ruck. Ryder Marshall combo was disastrous for us in 2021 and 2022.

Its really interest. We rank really poorly statistically in the ruck. We are bottom 5 in most categories. Go figure.

Our pressure acts, on the other hand are off the charts. I think there is correlation in this.

Marshall is a great midfielder, has become a very good defensive mark and is now starting to go forward too.
He is effective defensively but not damaging on the scoreboard.

His clearances are mostly rushed bombs forward. I seriously believe that at times our mids clamp on clearance pressure and block, so Marshall can chase a clearance and get a quick bomb forward. It looks set up.

Interestingly again, we turn the ball over at half forward quite a lot.

We are down on average marks inside 50.
Our goal kicking accuracy has improved and we get the ball in often enough. The deliver in has been sketchy.

Can't we make Marshall a tall mid and get a quality tap ruckman?

I don't know, play him in the centre and let him own it.

[CQ SAINT]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

We are categorically better with Marshall as sole ruck. Ryder Marshall combo was disastrous for us in 2021 and 2022.

Its really interest. We rank really poorly statistically in the ruck. We are bottom 5 in most categories. Go figure.

Our pressure acts, on the other hand are off the charts. I think there is correlation in this.

Marshall is a great midfielder, has become a very good defensive mark and is now starting to go forward too.
He is effective defensively but not damaging on the scoreboard.

His clearances are mostly rushed bombs forward. I seriously believe that at times our mids clamp on clearance pressure and block, so Marshall can chase a clearance and get a quick bomb forward. It looks set up.

Interestingly again, we turn the ball over at half forward quite a lot.

We are down on average marks inside 50.
Our goal kicking accuracy has improved and we get the ball in often enough. The deliver in has been sketchy.

Can't we make Marshall a tall mid and get a quality tap ruckman?

I don't know, play him in the centre and let him own it.

[Mr Magic]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

We are categorically better with Marshall as sole ruck. Ryder Marshall combo was disastrous for us in 2021 and 2022.

Can't we make Marshall a tall mid and get a quality tap ruckman?

Isn't that Owens role when he goes into the middle?

[Saintmike65]

For starters, the boss said it would be a year of EXPLORATION…

[Vortex]

For starters, the boss said it would be a year of EXPLORATION…

There’s a fine line between experimentation and exploration.

Almost at the end of that journey.

Next year is the beginning of the year of delivery.

[skeptic]

For starters, the boss said it would be a year of EXPLORATION…

Noted. My bad but I think the topic has remained on point

[cwrcyn]

Exploration in the first year of a coach's contract would be pretty normal, I'd say. He has to assess what he has. He coaches the AFL, watches the VFL games and gets a good look at most, except those where long term injury gets in the way.

Talent wise, he knows what he had at Freo in the grand final year and he knew what he has in 2009 with us. Comparing the talent we have right now and what was there in 2009 and at Freo, I think it's fair to say that he sees us well short of that level. Hell......we can see it. It's pretty obvious.

[SaintPav]

We’re we better with Ryder and Marshall

Than Solo Marshall in 2019
And Solo Marshall this season

And if so, why?

Both had different strengths as ruckmen- but only one could ruck at a time?

They both were average forwards and preferred playing ruck

Gawn and Grundy doesn’t work
Darcy and Jackson doesn’t work

All 4 (like Marshall) prefer the #1 mantle and 80+ percent in the ruck!

We are categorically better with Marshall as sole ruck. Ryder Marshall combo was disastrous for us in 2021 and 2022.

Can't we make Marshall a tall mid and get a quality tap ruckman?

Isn't that Owens role when he goes into the middle?

Marshall is mobile for his height but I don’t think starting him in centre bounces as a stand alone mid would work as the opposition mids are more agile and quicker.

If we did get a good tap ruckman, trying him on a wing would be interesting.