Jordan Lewis about coaches

[Teflon]

Some people write off a playing list way too early in my opinion.

….these were Ross’s now infamous departing words the first time he left St Kilda; “We’re a mature list. It’s the end of an era…really”

I know that Pelchen was already at our club and I know there were boardroom issues, but if the most important senior figure at the club who everyone ‘trusted’ and listened to tells you you’re finished… that’s pretty significant.

Was it really the end of an era in 2011 for the St Kilda team. I know history says it worked out that way…but what was Ross actually saying? Was he saying that Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes were washed up? Was he saying he didn’t trust that they could get better. Was he saying that ‘he couldn’t take this list anywhere?’

We didn’t have 6-8 blokes retire like Richmond have had in the last 2 years or like Hawthorn did around 2015/2016.

I couldn’t believe that Roos Lyon wrote off the St Kilda playing list in 2011 (less than 12 months after they played off in an epic Grand Final draw). I think Rooy was still only 27. We didn’t have an old list.

Lenny Hayes: Wins the TBM in 2012 and plays as he always has …at a very high level for three more years after the speech.

Nick Riewoldt: Wins the Trevor Barker medal in 2014 and is named All Australian as the CHF in 2014. Plays for five more years.

Stephen Milne: Saints leading goal scorer two years running and back to back All Australian honours in 2012. Milney played for 2 more years and could have easily gone on for three if perhaps circumstances were different

Leigh Montagna: Second in the TBMedal in 2012 and third in 2013. Goes on to play at a consistent high level for 5 years

Sam Fisher: Probably one of the players who started falling off in form and with serious injuries in 2014, but had very strong years in 2012 and 2015 eventually retiring at the end of 2016.

Both these guys (Dal and BJ) went to other clubs but they were no where near the ‘end of an era’ with their football in 2011

Nick Dal Santo: The three times AA with the Saints plays on for 4 more years and notches up over 300 AFL games

Brendon Goddard: Same as Nick, the dual All Australian goes on to play an astonishing 6 more years and with a total tally of 334 games at AFL level

There were others I could mention but you get the picture

And what about the ruckman that wasn’t valued when Lyon left? Rhys Stanley ended up with Premiership medallion and was in the system for more than 10 years after Lyon’s end of an era speech. Same with Ben McEvoy

I recall it was pretty much a consensus around the AFL that the Saint's premiership window had closed in 2011. Had a good run at it, still had some good players, some getting on a bit, the captain on one leg, competitive but not a chance to contend again. Ross knew redevelopment was needed, hence "end of era" statement at the time Baker and co "retired". He was right.

Pelchen had arrived to rejig the list.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/res ... 1hqy4.html

That’s correct
We were done
Had been up a while. Anyone who truly knows footy knows this
Anyhoo Lyons done well so far
Make finals and beat Cats this week and he’s 2 wins better than last year, made finals with one of the seasons worst injury list AND pumped games into gun kids he clearly thinks will make it
Handy coach

[The G Train Legacy]

He won 4 Premierships, 3 of them in succession!!!

Lewis is talking s***.

[Moods]

Lewis is notoriously bitter about the way he was exited out of the Hawks.Pots Clarkson every chance he gets. Not obviously, but enough to realise that he's not a fan. Take whatever he says about Clarkson with a grain of salt. Next headline, Derck Kickett never rated Sheedy? Luke Ball not a fan of Lyon?

[Scollop]

I recall it was pretty much a consensus around the AFL that the Saint's premiership window had closed in 2011.

Pelchen had arrived to rejig the list.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/res ... 1hqy4.html

The narrative which you wrongly call ‘consensus’ was actually created by none other than the coach himself. That article you posted is months after Lyon planted the negative seed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in GF’s in 2009 and 2010 that nothing can be salvaged and the list needs rebuilding? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter. Maybe he was in discussions with Fremantle very early on in 2011.

I don’t hate him. I just don’t trust him ( feel free to use that as your signature )

As I stated before, our captain was only 27 and most of our best players were younger. Lenny was older but still elite. If you have a look at Jordan Lewis and his career for example. He was moved on by Hawthorn at age 30. He was 31 years of age in his first year in 2017 playing for the Demons.

Hardwick said he ‘hated playing at Marvel’ but he didn’t say it when they were hungry for success. It was a negative and he basically didn’t care. He said it in May 2021 - 8 months AFTER they’d secured 3 cups.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition. Why would you plant that negative seed in your players’ minds? Why would you want to create a perception that you’re vulnerable and give ammunition to your opponents?

Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrases Lyon used had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

I know we had Pelchen and Lyon at loggerheads, but was there no other way to ease our salary cap situation than to dismantle the playing list!! Is that what Ross Lyon was saying in April and May 2011?

Maybe he was channelling Pelchen? Maybe he grew weary? Maybe he gave in to Pelchen…Maybe the stress with his personal financial situation coupled with the stresses of the job (getting that close and missing out) got to him.

I think he owes us anyway. Let’s hope he’s learnt from the past. Go Saints. Onwards and Upwards.

[takeaway]

I recall it was pretty much a consensus around the AFL that the Saint's premiership window had closed in 2011.

Pelchen had arrived to rejig the list.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/res ... 1hqy4.html

The narrative which you wrongly call ‘consensus’ was actually created by none other than the coach himself. That article you posted is months after Lyon planted the negative seed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html

Why would you declare just 6 months after your team has played in GF’s in 2009 and 2010 that nothing can be salvaged and the list needs rebuilding? Why would you create that element of doubt in your player’s minds when you are supposed to be their most ardent supporter. Maybe he was in discussions with Fremantle very early on in 2011.

I don’t hate him. I just don’t trust him ( feel free to use that as your signature )

As I stated before, our captain was only 27 and most of our best players were younger. Lenny was older but still elite. If you have a look at Jordan Lewis and his career for example. He was moved on by Hawthorn at age 30. He was 31 years of age in his first year in 2017 playing for the Demons.

Hardwick said he ‘hated playing at Marvel’ but he didn’t say it when they were hungry for success. It was a negative and he basically didn’t care. He said it in May 2021 - 8 months AFTER they’d secured 3 cups.

Let’s say you’re an AFL coach in charge of one of the most respected and feared teams in the competition. Why would you plant that negative seed in your players’ minds? Why would you want to create a perception that you’re vulnerable and give ammunition to your opponents?

Please don’t tell me it was meant to motivate.

If the phrases Lyon used had come from a journo or anyone in media circles we would have crucified them. How dare they question our heroes. What justification was there to doubt the quality of our players? Why would you even mention anything so negative if you are their leader?

I know we had Pelchen and Lyon at loggerheads, but was there no other way to ease our salary cap situation than to dismantle the playing list!! Is that what Ross Lyon was saying in April and May 2011?

Maybe he was channelling Pelchen? Maybe he grew weary? Maybe he gave in to Pelchen…Maybe the stress with his personal financial situation coupled with the stresses of the job (getting that close and missing out) got to him.

I think he owes us anyway. Let’s hope he’s learnt from the past. Go Saints. Onwards and Upwards.

Perhaps consensus was the wrong word - “bleeding obvious” would be more apt. As the articles you quoted state (not Ross), “ageing list” and “the Saints are struggling to stave off the appearance of a team in decline after a long period of contending for the premiership”.(2004-10). Happens to most teams after a sustained period of contention.

So you think Ross created a “negative seed” which affected Saint’s performance, when the Saint’s ageing list, need for rejuvenation, etc had already been all over the media for months? Even Ross in your articles states “Maybe everyone’s been right” “Maybe I’m in denial”.

Ross could have so much effect? What a guy. Imagine if he had had control of the Saints for the period say 2002-10, especially the prime period 2003-6. We’d be looking for our 4th or 5th flag by now.

Get with it Scolops. As I’d said before, it’s not the under 14s.

[Yorkeys]

Lewis doesn't seem much of an expert, Anyway. Perhaps he doesn't know what it takes to coach successfully, he was just a player following instructions. Getting a large group of young men to work as a team is more complex than writing out the team sheet. A good coach can make a good player just as the converse might be true. If players made coaches Dew and Buckley would still be coaching and Voss wouldn't have been in the gun first half of the year. Lewis has a grudge.

[SaintPav]

All those flags and they’re still not happy. Must suck to be Hawthorn.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall at those premiership reunions.

[Yorkeys]

All those flags and they’re still not happy. Must suck to be Hawthorn.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall at those premiership reunions.

Mitchell and Hodge: I would presume don't swap birthday cards. And does Cyril ever turn up? That might be awkward.
Looking forward to Fagin's book - eta in a year or so. Although he doesn't strike me as a kiss and tell sort of guy.

[SaintPav]

Ingrates..

[Sanctorum]

Any chance you could put up the whole article? I’d be really interested in reading the whole thing. All good if not, much appreciated if you can.

Following is the full article by Mark Robinson in Saturday's edition of the Herald Sun, rather lengthy but quite insightful, I'm not a huge fan of Jordan Lewis on Fox Footy, but this is informative:

"AFL’S GOT COACHING TALENT

They are football’s age-old questions: How do you pick a new coach and how do you know when to retain or sack the incumbent?

Richmond is in the midst of the former, and to a lesser extent Gold Coast, while West Coast, coached by Adam Simpson, absolutely has to contemplate the latter.
Port Adelaide’s dithering around Ken Hinkley had raised eyebrows until this week and even though Hinkley is assured a new deal, no one really knows if it will prove to be the correct decision. He’s earned the new contract, so personal reward and, to be frank, not upsetting the apple cart, is as good a reason as any. Port Adelaide chairman David Koch said this week: “We said … that we’d start discussions in August. I think it would be silly not to do it before finals, because you just don’t want that distraction.’’

Yep, Kenny’s got the job. It would seem it’s only a matter of how many years on the contract. The Power has lost its past four matches and plays Greater Western Sydney (at
home), Fremantle (away) and Richmond (home) to close the home-and-away season. Now lacking personnel, three consecutive losses wouldn’t change Koch’s mind.

Or would it? Stranger things have happened in footy.

“We look at the data and we make decisions based on the data and what is for the best for the club going forward,’’ Koch said. “And we just don’t think week to week. We think (in) four, five, 10-year plans. And what could eventuate during them.’’ Port would deny it, but we’ll run with it – Josh Carr was recruited back to the club as the potential successor to Hinkley.

It had the trademarks of Hawthorn enticing Sam Mitchell home to replace Alastair Clarkson, and while it might be the same playbook, it clearly will be a different outcome.
A phone call from Collingwood – who had sacked Nathan Buckley – to Mitchell set in motion Hawthorn’s greatest football upheaval since the almostmerger of the Hawks and Melbourne at the end of 1996. That one phone call from Magpies football boss Graham Wright to Mitchell culminated with the Hawks getting jumpy, Mitchell getting the senior gig and Clarkson, the four-time premiership coach, getting the heave-ho, directly or indirectly.

You suspect a similar phone call was made by Richmond to Carr to ask him to apply for the Tigers’ job. And you suspect Carr told Port of the development. And we know that instead of Port getting jumpy about potentially losing Carr – its next coach for however long – it has stuck fat with Hinkley. It might mean Carr is Richmond’s next coach and Port may have missed out on a beauty. Who knows?

Currently at the Tigers, McQualter, the stand-in coach, has a 6-4 win-loss record since he replaced Damien Hardwick after round 10. To have the Tigers marginally in contention for finals is a tick, but arguably the group is still rolling on the fumes of Hardwick instead of gulping in the freshness of a new game style, so what’s really changed?

To explore the depths of the situation, the Tigers need to consider that the era was over last year, there’s a need to restock and that the new coach has to be aware of game trends, and their future, and that he has to initially educate and eventually empower, which takes us back to the answer to the first question: What do you look for in a new coach?

Asked recently by colleague Sam Landsberger what the club was looking for in its coach, Tigers chief executive Brendon Gale said: “There’s clearly attributes that you want to see in all elite sporting coaches. There’s some that are more specific to this environment and also we’ve got to understand where the game is evolving and how coaching is
evolving and what that looks like in five or 10 years’ time. “You’ve got to have a technical understanding of the game and game plans and communication. But I think more than ever probably emotional intelligence.

“Being highly intelligent and having great empathy and understanding and the ability to build relationships is becoming more and more important.”

FINDING THE RIGHT FIT

Jordan Lewis was a part of the Essendon coaching selection panel alongside AFL great Robert Walls, Bombers football boss Josh Mahoney, Simone McKinnis OAM and Bombers director Dorothy Hisgrove. His role was to help find Ben Rutten’s replacement, a task initially that had him anxious. “Speaking from my experience, ’’ Lewis said, “I liken it to, let’s say you and I are having a conversation about ‘Mick’ , and you say, ‘You’ve got to meet Mick, he does this, he does that, he’s a great fella’ , and in my head I get a picture of what he looks like.

“Then when you meet him, he’s totally different from what picture you had in your head. “When I got asked to be on the panel of the Essendon Football Club to find the coach, it goes through your head, ‘What’s it going to be like, is it a complex and complicated process, is it this, is it that?’ but when you get in there, for me, it was a really simple process. Maybe it was made easier because the coach we selected was head and shoulders above the rest of the candidates.”

So, what made Brad Scott ideal?

“Knowledge of the game, the trends of the game which he might’ve had more input (because of his role at the AFL), you need to have presence and that can come through the presentation and if you present really well I think your presence grows and you feed off that, ” Lewis said. He said “emotional intelligence’’ was hugely important. “I also think vulnerability is big. If you open yourself up to mistakes you’ve made in the past, if you open yourself up to family and the struggles you’ve been through … you’ve got to show a human side as a coach because you have to be relatable, ” Lewis said. “If you’re not relatable, you’re basically just reading from a book, so you have to be relatable.

“If you were going to sit in a room and have five coaches to present, it’s relatively easy to pick the best candidate, especially when they are head and shoulders above the rest of the candidates.’’

Gale has said the Tigers were looking for the next Hardwick. The Bombers went tried and tested. The Tigers seem to be looking for young and bold.

Collingwood went with the softer personality of Craig McRae.

Gold Coast is besotted by the messiah complex in Hardwick, whose three flags and huge name make him a prized asset, although it remains to be seen if he can even go close to the same success with the Suns.

Denis Pagan couldn’t make it happen at Carlton after North Melbourne. Nor Mick Malthouse at Carlton after Collingwood, although Malthouse eventually saluted at Collingwood after West Coast.

There’s more. Like, Malcolm Blight at St Kilda after Adelaide, Robert Walls at Richmond after Carlton and perhaps the most famous being Ron Barassi at Melbourne after Carlton and North Melbourne.

Australian Football Legend Leigh Matthews was an outlier. He coached Collingwood to the 1990 premiership and then the Brisbane Lions to the threepeat (2001-03) with, he has said many times, a team crammed with talent.

Lewis, and similarly Matthews, believes good players make good coaches. He cites Richmond under Hardwick in 2016 compared to Richmond in 2017. “The coach allowed them to unlock themselves and they became a great side. Is that the coach? Yeah, but it’s mainly the players, ’’ Lewis said.

He’s mystified why the Suns were all-in on Hardwick. “This is what I don’t understand with football clubs, ’’ Lewis said. “Gold Coast has only gone down that path (Hardwick)
because they need a big name with a good track record to buy the club more time. He might not be any better than the next coach. “We praise these coaches, we build them
up, but they are only as good as his players, as good as his assistants, and as good as the board and stability of the club. If that’s no good, you could have Leigh Matthews come back and coach the club and they’d still be no good.

“Is Damien Hardwick the right appointment? I don’t know, but they haven’t exhausted all options to see if he is the right appointment. They’ve gone for the biggest fish in the sea and they’re hoping and praying it works.’’

Simpson is a premiership coach (2018) and a runner-up coach (2015), so does that automatically mean he is a great coach, or was he coaching a great team? Simpson has won three games in the Eagles’ past 45, while even Clarkson finished 12th, ninth and 15th in his last three seasons at the Hawks. The point is the gold dust theory doesn’t work.

QUIRKS AND REBUILDS

All coaches have their quirks. The Scott brothers like to coach from the box, as do Ross Lyon, Justin Longmuir and Luke Beveridge. Matthew Nicks is upstairs and downstairs, the same with Adam Kingsley, John Longmire and Adam Simpson, while McRae, Hinkley and Goodwin prefer ground level representation. Goodwin is never without headphones on, while Hinkley rarely wears headphones. In Hinkley’s case, the game-day coaching is left to the assistant, which allows Hinkley to try to graft improvement individually from the bench while also barking orders old-style to the on field. The question that has been pondered is, who is coaching Port, Hinkley or Carr?

Lewis says it’s a ridiculous question. “Everything before the game is planned, ’’ he said. “If there is a scenario which plays out, it is planned for. It’s called what-ifs.’’ Like, the Pies had a plan for Hawk James Sicily last week, but it wasn’t executed correctly. The players were at fault largely, but McRae took the hit. “As a coach you take responsibility for that, we had a few plans and I take full responsibility for that, ’’ McRae said. “The plans didn’t work and in hindsight I should have been stronger in a few things.’’

Lewis said: “Coaches on the boundary line don’t have to coach tactically because it’s already talked about and planned, so he’s the emotional coach on the ground.
“Assistant coaches are there to see trends of the game, where they are getting beaten and what they will do about it. They’ve already got the plan. “There’s also that ability to empower the players and be able to create clarity.

The resurgence from Carlton is because the players have got clarity in their roles, there’s been a little bit of a tinker with their game style, and they get confidence from feeling it and playing it.’’

By extension, Carr, for example, knows footy, but it’s unknown if he has the emotional and vulnerability bolts required to be the senior coach.

McQualter is coaching the easiest period for a coach – as an interim without expectation – but his 10 games at least gives the Tigers a sighter, and an advantage over Carr, or any other assistant in for the job for that matter.

the age-old question, the Tigers need a quirky, forward-thinking and patient coach – and board. Because, as Fox Footy’s David King has previously highlighted, the rebuilding coach in recent seasons (Brendon, Rutten, Stuart Dew for example) rarely gets to see the job through.

Lewis sees rough seas ahead for whoever gets the job at the Tigers. “I seriously think Richmond is five or six or seven years from contending and they have to make a drastic decision to cull and trade out and take draft picks, ’’ he said. “In five years, they will be anywhere from eighth to 12th, maybe they will jump up to sixth, maybe they won’t, but they are about to go through a period where they won’t be a premiership contender.

“I said when I left in 2016, Hawthorn might as well drop down the bottom of the ladder. They wasted three years or four years trying to compete. They wasted it. Extraordinary.

“So, if Clarkson is the greatest coach ever, how come he couldn’t get a team to finish above 13th in three of four years…so what makes a good coach?"

[markp]

In other breaking news: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[Teflon]

In other breaking news: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

*SHOCK*
Who’d have thunked it

[saynta]

Loved Lewis as a footballer

Can't stand him as a commentator.

[B.M]

Who says a list is ‘done’

You just regenerate

Has Sydney’s list ever been done?!

Has Geelongs?!

That’s a fkn nonsense

It is done though if you piss off two ruckmen, two champions and don’t resign a coach who got to two GFs

Chris Pelchen - destroyed the club