Jordan Lewis about coaches

[B.M]

Did anyone hear what he said about Clarkson

He intimated that the master coach, possibly greatest ever was made to look good because of the quality at his disposal

And when he lost the stars was mediocre at best

As I continually say
The one thing all great premiership coaches have in common

A great team with quality players

Do you need a good leader/coach - yes

But does a good leader/coach guarantee success - no

[TheGreatZacsby]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

[Scollop]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

[cwrcyn]

Funny how successful coaches had superb playing lists.

What happened to Barassi when he went from North Melbourne to Melbourne? Bombed

Malthouse from Collingwood to Carlton? Bombed?

Pagan from North Melbourne to Carlton? Bombed

[D.B.Cooper]

Funny how successful coaches had superb playing lists.

What happened to Barassi when he went from North Melbourne to Melbourne? Bombed

Malthouse from Collingwood to Carlton? Bombed?

Pagan from North Melbourne to Carlton? Bombed

Agree totally.

To provide sustainable excellence you need quality in the below criteria:

1. Playing list
2. Administration and board
3. Coaching team
4. Player development & support
5. Strength & conditioning & medical
6. List management
7. Strong leaders in the playing group & culture
8. Mental wellbeing

Playing list is #1, without doubt, miles ahead of any other factor, but don’t write off coaching as not a very important factor.

VG coaches make a huge difference, Collingwood were dour and defensive under Buckley.

They moved on Treloar, Grundy, Stephenson for unders and replaced the coach.

Under a new regime they play exciting positive footy and are a genuine premiership contender.

Yes the Daicos bros, etc have added to their stocks but arguably they moved on more talent that they secured.

So what was the big Collingwood turn around if not coaching and game plan?

[Vortex]

Imagine Peter Brock in a Datsun 120B at Bathurst

Imagine John Bertrand in a Clinker Hull in the American Cup

Imagine Tiger Woods without a carbon fibre driver.

Coaches at the elite level are nothing without a quality list.

Can’t wait for the magic to happen.



I

[TheGreatZacsby]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

100% I agree. That 2008 win was premature, probably like the doggies win as well.

[Sanctorum]

In Saturday's Herald Sun there was also a lengthy article quoting Jordan Lewis on coaching in the AFL, drawing on his experience as player with two clubs and his position on the committee that selected Brad Scott to coach Essendon.

I found the following excerpt an especially interesting insight into what happens behind the scene on game day, discussing the way some coaches stay in the box while others go to the bench:

"In Hinkley’s case, the game-day coaching is left to the assistants, which allows Hinkley to try to graft improvement individually from the bench while also barking orders old-style to the on field.

The question that has been pondered is, who is coaching Port, Hinkley or Carr?"

Lewis says it’s a ridiculous question.

“Everything before the game is planned,’’ he said.

“If there is a scenario which plays out, it is planned for. It’s called what-ifs.’’

Like, the Pies had a plan for Hawk James Sicily last week, but it wasn’t executed correctly. The players were at fault largely, but McRae took the hit. “As a coach you take responsibility for that, we had a few plans and I take full responsibility for that,’’McRae said.

“The plans didn’t work and in hindsight I should have been stronger in a few things.’’

Lewis said: “Coaches on the boundary line don’t have to coach tactically because it’s already talked about and planned, so he’s the emotional coach on the ground.

“Assistant coaches are there to see trends of the game, where they are getting beaten and what they will do about it. They’ve already got the plan.

“There’s also that ability to empower the players and be able to create clarity.

The resurgence from Carlton is because the players have got clarity in their roles, there’s been a little bit of a tinker with their game style, and they get confidence
from feeling it and playing it.’’

[GSG]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

100% I agree. That 2008 win was premature, probably like the doggies win as well.

With the list we had in 2008-2010, Clarko would have won us a flag, not losing 3 (and then another one elsewhere). Winning a flag under our current coach - not holding my breath.

[Devilhead]

Tigers Woods would have probably won with any driver

[saynta]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

100% I agree. That 2008 win was premature, probably like the doggies win as well.

With the list we had in 2008-2010, Clarko would have won us a flag, not losing 3 (and then another one elsewhere). Winning a flag under our current coach - not holding my breath.

Fair comments imhfo.

[B.M]

What would he have done differently???

2009 we were beaten by a side who knew how to win one and were stung by losing 08 as favourites

We actually blew it in the first half!

Clarkson has gone about 40% in his last three seasons

[shanegrambeau]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

100% I agree. That 2008 win was premature, probably like the doggies win as well.

With the list we had in 2008-2010, Clarko would have won us a flag, not losing 3 (and then another one elsewhere). Winning a flag under our current coach - not holding my breath.

Fair comments imhfo.

I think it’s total nonsense.

We don’t know and for a start, maybe Clarko may not even have gotten that team to finals, let alone GF. Some say we were already on a downer by the time RTB arrived.

[Josh Battle]

So what was the big Collingwood turn around if not coaching and game plan?

Not as simple as that

They had drama in the board room and with the coach distracted from his duties in my opinion. There was some talk of Nathan Buckley retiring after 2020 and he wasn’t motivated to coach. Buckley split up with his wife in December 2020 and there were murmurings that all was not well in his private life throughout that Covid year.

Most of that doesn’t affect players but they also had other drama.

They had the ‘Do Better Report’ and all the media attention where players were actually getting involved and making statements. The current captain (Darcy Moore was very vocal as were many of his team mates).

They also had some injuries to their key players. De Goey, Howe, Murphy, SideBottom, Moore, J Daicos, W Hoskin Elliot and others were on the sidelines during the year.

[Josh Battle]

We don’t know and for a start, maybe Clarko may not even have gotten that team to finals, let alone GF. Some say we were already on a downer by the time RTB arrived.

2004 - Prelim Final
2005 - Prelim Final
2006- Elimination Final.

Senior Leaders in Robert Harvey and Lenny Hayes and a wealth of talent that was not even half way through their careers. Several of them already earning All Australian honours.

3 years in a row. Finalists with a core group who had just started to play around the 80/90/100 game mark. Yeah sure…’already on a downer’ …no doubt. Thank God we found the saviour to rescue our club

[Leo.J]

In Saturday's Herald Sun there was also a lengthy article quoting Jordan Lewis on coaching in the AFL, drawing on his experience as player with two clubs and his position on the committee that selected Brad Scott to coach Essendon.

I found the following excerpt an especially interesting insight into what happens behind the scene on game day, discussing the way some coaches stay in the box while others go to the bench:

"In Hinkley’s case, the game-day coaching is left to the assistants, which allows Hinkley to try to graft improvement individually from the bench while also barking orders old-style to the on field.

The question that has been pondered is, who is coaching Port, Hinkley or Carr?"

Lewis says it’s a ridiculous question.

“Everything before the game is planned,’’ he said.

“If there is a scenario which plays out, it is planned for. It’s called what-ifs.’’

Like, the Pies had a plan for Hawk James Sicily last week, but it wasn’t executed correctly. The players were at fault largely, but McRae took the hit. “As a coach you take responsibility for that, we had a few plans and I take full responsibility for that,’’McRae said.

“The plans didn’t work and in hindsight I should have been stronger in a few things.’’

Lewis said: “Coaches on the boundary line don’t have to coach tactically because it’s already talked about and planned, so he’s the emotional coach on the ground.

“Assistant coaches are there to see trends of the game, where they are getting beaten and what they will do about it. They’ve already got the plan.

“There’s also that ability to empower the players and be able to create clarity.

The resurgence from Carlton is because the players have got clarity in their roles, there’s been a little bit of a tinker with their game style, and they get confidence
from feeling it and playing it.’’

Any chance you could put up the whole article? I’d be really interested in reading the whole thing. All good if not, much appreciated if you can.

[Scollop]

Some people write off a playing list way too early in my opinion.

….these were Ross’s now infamous departing words the first time he left St Kilda; “We’re a mature list. It’s the end of an era…really”

I know that Pelchen was already at our club and I know there were boardroom issues, but if the most important senior figure at the club who everyone ‘trusted’ and listened to tells you you’re finished… that’s pretty significant.

Was it really the end of an era in 2011 for the St Kilda team. I know history says it worked out that way…but what was Ross actually saying? Was he saying that Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes were washed up? Was he saying he didn’t trust that they could get better. Was he saying that ‘he couldn’t take this list anywhere?’

We didn’t have 6-8 blokes retire like Richmond have had in the last 2 years or like Hawthorn did around 2015/2016.

I couldn’t believe that Roos Lyon wrote off the St Kilda playing list in 2011 (less than 12 months after they played off in an epic Grand Final draw). I think Rooy was still only 27. We didn’t have an old list.

Lenny Hayes: Wins the TBM in 2012 and plays as he always has …at a very high level for three more years after the speech.

Nick Riewoldt: Wins the Trevor Barker medal in 2014 and is named All Australian as the CHF in 2014. Plays for five more years.

Stephen Milne: Saints leading goal scorer two years running and back to back All Australian honours in 2012. Milney played for 2 more years and could have easily gone on for three if perhaps circumstances were different

Leigh Montagna: Second in the TBMedal in 2012 and third in 2013. Goes on to play at a consistent high level for 5 years

Sam Fisher: Probably one of the players who started falling off in form and with serious injuries in 2014, but had very strong years in 2012 and 2015 eventually retiring at the end of 2016.

Both these guys (Dal and BJ) went to other clubs but they were no where near the ‘end of an era’ with their football in 2011

Nick Dal Santo: The three times AA with the Saints plays on for 4 more years and notches up over 300 AFL games

Brendon Goddard: Same as Nick, the dual All Australian goes on to play an astonishing 6 more years and with a total tally of 334 games at AFL level

There were others I could mention but you get the picture

And what about the ruckman that wasn’t valued when Lyon left? Rhys Stanley ended up with Premiership medallion and was in the system for more than 10 years after Lyon’s end of an era speech. Same with Ben McEvoy

[saynta]

Some people write off a playing list way too early in my opinion.

….these were Ross’s now infamous departing words the first time he left St Kilda; “We’re a mature list. It’s the end of an era…really”

Was it really the end of an era in 2011 for the St Kilda team. I know history says it worked out that way…but what was Ross actually saying? Was he saying that Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes were washed up? Was he saying he didn’t trust that they could get better. Was he saying that ‘he couldn’t take this list anywhere?’

I couldn’t believe that Roos Lyon wrote off the St Kilda playing list in 2011 (less than 12 months after they played off in an epic Grand Final draw)

Lenny Hayes: Wins the TBM in 2012 and plays as he always has …at a very high level for three more years after the speech.

Nick Riewoldt: Wins the Trevor Barker medal in 2014 and is named All Australian as the CHF in 2014. Plays for five more years.

Stephen Milne: Saints leading goal scorer two years running and back to back All Australian honours in 2012. Milney played for 2 more years and could have easily gone on for three if perhaps circumstances were different

Leigh Montagna: Second in the TBMedal in 2012 and third in 2013. Goes on to play at a consistent high level for 5 years

Sam Fisher: Probably one of the players who started falling off in form and with serious injuries in 2014, but had very strong years in 2012 and 2015 eventually retiring at the end of 2016.

Both these guys (Dal and BJ) went to other clubs but they were no where near the ‘end of an era’ with their football in 2011

Nick Dal Santo: The three times AA with the Saints plays on for 4 more years and notches up over 300 AFL games

Brendon Goddard: Same as Nick, the dual All Australian goes on to play an astonishing 6 more years and with a total tally of 334 games at AFL level

There were others I could mention but you get the picture

And what about the two ruckmen that were there when Lyon left? Both guys who Ross didn’t rate and both guys who would be valued in their teams after they were shoved out - Ben McEvoy and Rhys Stanley both end up with Premiership medallions and both in the system for more than 10 years after Lyon’s end of an era speech

Good post.

[maverick]

Great players make a great coach, once the coach turns them into a great team
But a bad coach can ruin great players because the great team isn’t created
That’s the saints of 04-07

[asiu]

Good post.

mmmm

agreed

[Trev from the Bush]

Imagine Peter Brock in a Datsun 120B at Bathurst

Imagine John Bertrand in a Clinker Hull in the American Cup

Imagine Tiger Woods without a carbon fibre driver.

Coaches at the elite level are nothing without a quality list.

Can’t wait for the magic to happen.



I

Brocky would have even struggled in a 120Y!

[saintsRrising]

Do you need a good leader/coach - yes

But does a good leader/coach guarantee success - no

And has anyone ever said a good coach alone would guarantee success? = no


Successful teams do most things right. Coaching is just one of multiple factors that need to be gotten right. But without a good coach ultimate success is most unlikely.

[scallopsroe]

Some people write off a playing list way too early in my opinion.

….these were Ross’s now infamous departing words the first time he left St Kilda; “We’re a mature list. It’s the end of an era…really”

I know that Pelchen was already at our club and I know there were boardroom issues, but if the most important senior figure at the club who everyone ‘trusted’ and listened to tells you you’re finished… that’s pretty significant.

Was it really the end of an era in 2011 for the St Kilda team. I know history says it worked out that way…but what was Ross actually saying? Was he saying that Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes were washed up? Was he saying he didn’t trust that they could get better. Was he saying that ‘he couldn’t take this list anywhere?’

We didn’t have 6-8 blokes retire like Richmond have had in the last 2 years or like Hawthorn did around 2015/2016.

I couldn’t believe that Roos Lyon wrote off the St Kilda playing list in 2011 (less than 12 months after they played off in an epic Grand Final draw). I think Rooy was still only 27. We didn’t have an old list.

Lenny Hayes: Wins the TBM in 2012 and plays as he always has …at a very high level for three more years after the speech.

Nick Riewoldt: Wins the Trevor Barker medal in 2014 and is named All Australian as the CHF in 2014. Plays for five more years.

Stephen Milne: Saints leading goal scorer two years running and back to back All Australian honours in 2012. Milney played for 2 more years and could have easily gone on for three if perhaps circumstances were different

Leigh Montagna: Second in the TBMedal in 2012 and third in 2013. Goes on to play at a consistent high level for 5 years

Sam Fisher: Probably one of the players who started falling off in form and with serious injuries in 2014, but had very strong years in 2012 and 2015 eventually retiring at the end of 2016.

Both these guys (Dal and BJ) went to other clubs but they were no where near the ‘end of an era’ with their football in 2011

Nick Dal Santo: The three times AA with the Saints plays on for 4 more years and notches up over 300 AFL games

Brendon Goddard: Same as Nick, the dual All Australian goes on to play an astonishing 6 more years and with a total tally of 334 games at AFL level

There were others I could mention but you get the picture

And what about the ruckman that wasn’t valued when Lyon left? Rhys Stanley ended up with Premiership medallion and was in the system for more than 10 years after Lyon’s end of an era speech. Same with Ben McEvoy

Hear hear Scollop

It's the coaches job to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the squad he has available. In Lyons case he was presented with the list not of his making. Next year let's see. As Yabbie Jeans once said "Good players make great coaches" or was it vice versa?
Now let's see what happens on Saturday against Geelong, then we can assess the tactical nous of our coaches against the reigning premier.

[saynta]

I do agree B.M with the above.

The crux of it is though, it’s that we have a semi-quality side and look how much Ross Lyon pushed our side this year with all the injuries. We are in a way better spot compared to Ratts last year. It’s not about this year though, it’s about taking our quality kids (I won’t bother the names because we all know who they are) and developing them into that premiership winning team. I reckon we can do it.

I hope you're right

On your point about pushing a side and getting the youth to believe. I think we all acknowledge that Hawthorn probably won their first GF in 2008 ahead of time.

Clarko's greatness and his abilities as a coach were cemented with another 3 Flags back to back. It doesn't matter how talented your list is. That's bloody hard to do.

100% I agree. That 2008 win was premature, probably like the doggies win as well.

With the list we had in 2008-2010, Clarko would have won us a flag, not losing 3 (and then another one elsewhere). Winning a flag under our current coach - not holding my breath.

Fair comments imhfo.

I think it’s total nonsense.

We don’t know and for a start, maybe Clarko may not even have gotten that team to finals, let alone GF. Some say we were already on a downer by the time RTB arrived.

Posters are entitled to their views, even you.

[takeaway]

Some people write off a playing list way too early in my opinion.

….these were Ross’s now infamous departing words the first time he left St Kilda; “We’re a mature list. It’s the end of an era…really”

I know that Pelchen was already at our club and I know there were boardroom issues, but if the most important senior figure at the club who everyone ‘trusted’ and listened to tells you you’re finished… that’s pretty significant.

Was it really the end of an era in 2011 for the St Kilda team. I know history says it worked out that way…but what was Ross actually saying? Was he saying that Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes were washed up? Was he saying he didn’t trust that they could get better. Was he saying that ‘he couldn’t take this list anywhere?’

We didn’t have 6-8 blokes retire like Richmond have had in the last 2 years or like Hawthorn did around 2015/2016.

I couldn’t believe that Roos Lyon wrote off the St Kilda playing list in 2011 (less than 12 months after they played off in an epic Grand Final draw). I think Rooy was still only 27. We didn’t have an old list.

Lenny Hayes: Wins the TBM in 2012 and plays as he always has …at a very high level for three more years after the speech.

Nick Riewoldt: Wins the Trevor Barker medal in 2014 and is named All Australian as the CHF in 2014. Plays for five more years.

Stephen Milne: Saints leading goal scorer two years running and back to back All Australian honours in 2012. Milney played for 2 more years and could have easily gone on for three if perhaps circumstances were different

Leigh Montagna: Second in the TBMedal in 2012 and third in 2013. Goes on to play at a consistent high level for 5 years

Sam Fisher: Probably one of the players who started falling off in form and with serious injuries in 2014, but had very strong years in 2012 and 2015 eventually retiring at the end of 2016.

Both these guys (Dal and BJ) went to other clubs but they were no where near the ‘end of an era’ with their football in 2011

Nick Dal Santo: The three times AA with the Saints plays on for 4 more years and notches up over 300 AFL games

Brendon Goddard: Same as Nick, the dual All Australian goes on to play an astonishing 6 more years and with a total tally of 334 games at AFL level

There were others I could mention but you get the picture

And what about the ruckman that wasn’t valued when Lyon left? Rhys Stanley ended up with Premiership medallion and was in the system for more than 10 years after Lyon’s end of an era speech. Same with Ben McEvoy

I recall it was pretty much a consensus around the AFL that the Saint's premiership window had closed in 2011. Had a good run at it, still had some good players, some getting on a bit, the captain on one leg, competitive but not a chance to contend again. Ross knew redevelopment was needed, hence "end of era" statement at the time Baker and co "retired". He was right.

Pelchen had arrived to rejig the list.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/res ... 1hqy4.html