Ross Lyon’s year of experimentation

[skeptic]

Thought this topic was worth a revisit post a win as things are a bit calmer. There’s been a bit of angst about it over the last few months with some consensus that there hasn’t been enough experimentation. I’d be interested to get some takes but thoughts it’s worth sharing a few

Positives -
Have gotten a good look at Phillipou who has played all the way through with varied results. Most agree the kid looks like he could become a star and he has had good patches and great plays but obviously not able to sustain it.

Caminati - started during the forward crisis and looked really decent early before losing his way post suspension. Has mongrel and needs a bit of size but few would argue he’s not a tick.

Owens - looks like a bonafide star. Has been a match winner at times… looked like a monster mid at others and flourished as a relief ruck at times too. Beaten some times too but overall went from fighting to get into the top 22 at seasons start to one of the first picked.

Coops - Didn’t started the season and really really had to fight to get in… and then fight again to stay in. Started a bit up the ground initially, dallied into defence in a crisis and has kind of settled into running/pushing forward role. Can take a grab, is a lovely kick at goal and his fitness has improved out of sight… still looks a bit laconic at time with his agility coming in to question. Seems cemented in the team for now and seemingly proven that he’s at least worth continuing to develop for now… though personally I’m a big fan.

NWH - Started as a fringe that we were concerned would be knocked over by a stiff breeze. Also made us sweat with a late re-signing. Has quickly developed into an excellent HBF/winger… pbly the youngster that has best closed the gap to elite level and looks almost certain to be a star.

Stocker - seems like we absolutely nailed this one. Came out of nowhere and had a really good start to the season and flatlined quite quickly for a bit. Gives off the sense that he’s perhaps been a bit hit and miss with understanding the game plan/role that’s asked of him having incurred RTB’s wrath a few times. Still… will be around for a while.

Wood - whilst not quite going on with it the way we hoped based on how he started the year (he really was incredible pre-injury)… fair to say Wood picked up where he left off and has elevated his game.

Sinclair - Great season and will be our best and fairest winner most likely… spent some time in the middle and done well but arguably is best suited to a HBF.

Peris, Keeler, Hotton and Heath… all looking likely. Nice that Peris got a taste and did pretty well.
Also nice to see Hayes and Coffield get back on the park after extended injury lay offs.


Neutral

Windhager- Argusbly could be in the positive category - started outside the top 22 and fair to say that he didn’t easily pick up where he left off from 2022. Seemed as though there was difficulty in where to player him as he’s has been all parts a lock down defender, a defensive forward, a tagger and a midfielder in his own right… general consensus that work has been put into developing Marcus’ offensive game. At this point… seems like a success story as he’s in the 22, seems cemented in there and is a reasonably versatile player that looks the goods.

Byrnes - The surprise story of 2023. Was seemingly nowhere near it at the start if the year and got everyone taking with a dominant round one display. Has really struggled with consistency sometimes getting to 20+ disposals a game and other times barely getting to 10… disposal and decision making a concern as is him ability to assert physicals presence… that being said, workmate is out of this world. Earned himself some time.

Cordy - started as an urgently needed tall forward with the goal of being little more then competitive… pbly did better in the role then most gave him credit for (especially me)… has gone back to defence in Howard’s absence and shone a little. Will stay on the list as a decent utility.

Membrey - injured all year and suddenly in the top 22, fit and looking like a necessary player. Most hoping that he’s not the mystery player rumoured to be heading towards an unceremonious dumping

Negatives

Bytel and Campbell - Pbly Sandringham’s best but neither have really had much of a looking. Tom has been amongst the best most weeks and by all accounts has proven himself to be a valued leader at Sandy with calls suggesting he’ll stay on the list as depth and leadership. Obviously RTB not interested in a 2 primary ruck approach and he’s behind Roman.
Bytel has been harder to read. Decent v Freo and was unlucky with injury. Had limited opportunities since despite dominating at Sandy. When he has gotten the call up… has either been sub or played outside of his primary role. Impression that his papers are stamped with a lack of diversity/spread stamp.

Howard and Gresh - too clearly top 22 players that have frustrated fans this season with a lot errors and seemingly inconsistent effort/leadership leading to heavy rumours circulating that they want out or will be push out.

Steele - Hasn’t been the same since injury and pbly needed to be rested at times. Been decent enough but I think most will hope he’ll bounce back next season.

Jones/Billings/Dmac - none of the trio have done anything to repute concerns that they can’t stay on the park. All seem out of favour.

Clark - rumours about attitude and fitness have been circulating for a couple of years and he finds himself on the outer now with talks circulating about North next season.

Paton - played all over the place but not particularly well. IMO will live to fight another season as he has at least been fight to play all season but will be challenged to elevate and elevate quickly.

Highmore and Connolly - Seemingly not close to selection at any point with a least a few Sandy match reports, especially for the former. Allison another, pbly looking for a new home soon.



Looking at it to me… I think we’ve learned a lot about this list and what RTB wants or is intending to do. I’m going to mark that down as a tick.

[nostalgicsaint]

Good summary.

Adding

Gamestyle: No longer just bombing to king. Team can defend and when it chooses to can score quickly. Need to be more consistent and improve in arresting momentum- particularly around clearances

[skeptic]

Good summary.

Adding

Gamestyle: No longer just bombing to king. Team can defend and when it chooses to can score quickly. Need to be more consistent and improve in arresting momentum- particularly around clearances

To be honest… this may just be the biggest feature of all. The rumoured players on the outs:

Gresh
Jones
Howard
Bytel
Dmac (albeit injury)

Not exactly known for disposal

Paton a little out of favour maybe is also a bit all over the place at times

Clark and Billings are meant to be very good kicks but have arguably not matched the hype?

[saintsRrising]

I think while our injuries have provided opportunity to get games into the kids, that RTB has actually erred on putting even more games into them than injuries alone required.

This will help us going forward.

Caminiti for example now knows that he neds to build his body up if he wants to play key forward. He showed enough this season to suggest that he has all the tools to make it, just needs the hard work and body to much that raw talent.

[Sanctorum]

Excellent summary skeptic, the only player you haven't mentioned is Bradley Hill who continues to perform with a degree of indifference and has not played anywhere near his best form.

In fact I have come to the conclusion that Nasiah Wanganeen Milera has bypassed him in an identical role as a genuinely creative impact player, which raises the question if at age 30 Hill may not necesarily remain in St Kilda's best 22 in the two years left on his contract.

This opinion should not be seen as me being anti Brad Hill - it's quite obvious that in Ross Lyon he has an ardent admirer, and there is no doubt he sometimes turns it on, but nowhere near often enough.

Besides, I'm delighted with the club's focus on youth this year and am in no doubt that this policy will result in our team making big strides up the ladder sooner rather tha later.

The other significant positive tbis year is that Lyon has focussed his players on following 'a process', his regular comments that he is not focusssed on the game's outcome, it's all about the players executing their set roles and in that way the results take care of themselves.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Yorkeys]

My take is the experimentation has taken place in the lab and VFL not so much in the field. Results have distilled to a core set of findings, hence not a lot of players used over the journey.
Parallel subset trials have been conducted: like what if Bradley got a bit more physical - but puncturing a lung is going too far - promising results recently. Seeing if Dougal can go a whole game without a serious brain fade: nope. Can Higgins, Gresham and Butler flourish in the same forward line - no, you need marking power of say a Sharman and/or a Membrey to support Max - otherwise ball doesn't come to ground and they are fairly superfluous. Wood on a wing, Nasiah half back: Eureka!

[bigcarl]

Caminiti for example now knows that he neds to build his body up if he wants to play key forward. He showed enough this season to suggest that he has all the tools to make it, just needs the hard work and body to much that raw talent.

Yep, I think his competitive nature will get him there over the next couple seasons. Membrey won’t be around forever, Sharman could be good but is still sort of fringe. Plus there’s the ever present possibility of injuries. He’ll be back

[bigcarl]

Caminiti for example now knows that he neds to build his body up if he wants to play key forward. He showed enough this season to suggest that he has all the tools to make it, just needs the hard work and body to much that raw talent.

Yep, I think his competitive nature will get him there over the next couple seasons. Membrey won’t be around forever, Sharman could be good but is still sort of fringe. Plus there’s the ever present possibility of injuries. He’ll be back

[Vortex]

Phillipou - Got potential

Caminati - Development ( has pushed Sharman down the list)

Owens - Got potential

Coops - Delist

NWH - Got potential

Stocker - Can't afford to stop improving.

Wood - Value

Sinclair - Star

Peris - Delist

Keeler, Hotton and Heath - development…

Coffield - Running out of time

Windhager- development

Byrnes -will only ever be a fringe

Cordy - Can he become our monster backman?

Membrey - Required

Bytel - Delist

Campbell -Delist

Howard - required

Gresh - gone

Steele - needs to be replaced as Captain so he can focus on how to light up our midfield.

Jones/Billings/Dmac - Thanks for your service

Clark - if he stays give him one more year (tops) to prove he's a worthy no.7

Paton - fringe

Highmore and Connolly - Delist

[The Fireman]

Wilkie goes ok and should be capt

Sharman a def keeper

[Scollop]

No shame in giving up the captaincy

Sam Mitchell did it - after they won 2008 flag with him as captain. Sam actually became a better player (and a Brownlow medalist... albeit by default)

More recently, Coniglio did it at GWS and he's having his best year in 2023 in probably the last 4 years.

[Yorkeys]

Broke both s but

[Impatient Sainter]

Vortex you have delisted 8 players, how many new players do you think we can bring in in one period. If we trade in 3 at most thats still 5 positions to fill. This years draft is considered not that deep and most pundits only expect 50 kids to be taken. 5 draft picks in a shallow draft pool with whats left of our draft hand would be poor management.

[B.M]

Sam Mitchell was already a great player

Whether he or Hodge was Capt wouldn’t have made an iota of difference

In fact as shown now - that Sam is a head coach and Hodge speaks incoherent cliches in the media
Maybe Sam would’ve been better

[saynta]

I don't know where this year of discovery/experimentation comes from, but it is just plain crap, bulls*** to keep the masses happy , if there is a lack of progress or success this year.

Saints have around 44 players on the list yet, Lyon and co have played only 31 players, the least number of any of the 18 clubs.

Richmond is next lowest but even they have played 35 players this year.

As I said, bulls***.

[Vortex]

Vortex you have delisted 8 players, how many new players do you think we can bring in in one period. If we trade in 3 at most thats still 5 positions to fill. This years draft is considered not that deep and most pundits only expect 50 kids to be taken. 5 draft picks in a shallow draft pool with whats left of our draft hand would be poor management.

and you highlight perfectly the challenge that lays ahead, and then throw in Tasmania coming into the comp.

yes I have 8 from that list to delist but just because we can't find GF types to replace them with doesn't mean they will magically turn into GF types if we keep them on the list any longer.

As I say you highlight the challenge perfectly and it's why I wait with great anticipation as to what Lyons magic trick is for procuring the critical mass of players needed to contend.

[saynta]

Vortex you have delisted 8 players, how many new players do you think we can bring in in one period. If we trade in 3 at most thats still 5 positions to fill. This years draft is considered not that deep and most pundits only expect 50 kids to be taken. 5 draft picks in a shallow draft pool with whats left of our draft hand would be poor management.

10 actually, not 8. the guy has NFI.

And no one has even mentioned two key position players, Adams and Van Es

[Vortex]

No shame in giving up the captaincy

Sam Mitchell did it - after they won 2008 flag with him as captain. Sam actually became a better player (and a Brownlow medalist... albeit by default)

More recently, Coniglio did it at GWS and he's having his best year in 2023 in probably the last 4 years.

exactly, no shame at all

[SaintWiki]

I don't know where this year of discovery/experimentation comes from, but it is just plain crap, bulls*** to keep the masses happy , if there is a lack of progress or success this year.

Saints have around 44 players on the list yet, Lyon and co have played only 31 players, the least number of any of the 18 clubs.

Richmond is next lowest but even they have played 35 players this year.

As I said, bulls***.

I heard the term assessment year, not experimentation, but whatever. Most RL haters don't use the 'h' term, but they may as well, because their posts don't fool anyone.

[saynta]

I don't know where this year of discovery/experimentation comes from, but it is just plain crap, bulls*** to keep the masses happy , if there is a lack of progress or success this year.

Saints have around 44 players on the list yet, Lyon and co have played only 31 players, the least number of any of the 18 clubs.

Richmond is next lowest but even they have played 35 players this year.

As I said, bulls***.

I heard the term assessment year, not experimentation, but whatever. Most RL haters don't use the 'h' term, but they may as well, because their posts don't fool anyone.

No you are wrong. Well you are where I am concerned. I don't hate Lyon. I just believe he should never have been re appointed.

And I have plenty of company there

He is making the same mistakes with selections that he did first time around.

But, I will admit that playing the kids is a marked improvement, not that he had many other options.

If he gets us into the finals, I guess that it will be me having to reassess.

[Teflon]

I don't know where this year of discovery/experimentation comes from, but it is just plain crap, bulls*** to keep the masses happy , if there is a lack of progress or success this year.

Saints have around 44 players on the list yet, Lyon and co have played only 31 players, the least number of any of the 18 clubs.

Richmond is next lowest but even they have played 35 players this year.

As I said, bulls***.

I heard the term assessment year, not experimentation, but whatever. Most RL haters don't use the 'h' term, but they may as well, because their posts don't fool anyone.

[Devilhead]

So apparently Caminiti has gone past Sharman yet one is in the side and the other isn't

Never on this forum have I seen someone dig a hole so deep

[cwrcyn]

Yes, we've only used 31 players. So who didn't get a gig?


McKenzie: Injured all yer
Hotton: First year player injured most of the year
Keeler: First year player injured for half of the year
Campbell: Back up ruckman who hasn't been required
Van Es: First year player who has not overly impressed with his performances
Allison: injured for most of the year
Adams: Injured for first part of season. Not performing well enough to be played
Coffield: Injured for most or the year
Hayes: injured for most of the year
Heath: Young developing ruckman not required to play and probably not ready
Highmore: Good form in VFL. Probably deserved a chance at some stage
McLennan: First year player injured for most of the year
Connolly: Has been good (and ordinary) at times. Probably deserved a shot at some stage

Out of all those players only Highmore would have realistically been considered for selection. Most other players dealt with significant lay-offs due to injury and simply do not have either the fitness or the body of work to justify selection.

We know that if they were fit, McKenzie, Coffield, and Hayes would have played in the senior team. Hotton may have got 3 or 4 games.

Only Highmore, Campbell, and Connolly could have genuinely been considered for selection this season, and realistically it would only have been as a back up, as there are players in the seniors who already have their respective positions covered.


You can't explore the value of players if they are not available or don't have the requisite fitness level to play in the seniors. You can't select them if their VFL form is ordinary, either. Selection integrity, anyone?


Can't stick this one on the coach. It's just not logical to do so.

[The Linton Street Flash]

Yes, we've only used 31 players. So who didn't get a gig?


McKenzie: Injured all yer
Hotton: First year player injured most of the year
Keeler: First year player injured for half of the year
Campbell: Back up ruckman who hasn't been required
Van Es: First year player who has not overly impressed with his performances
Allison: injured for most of the year
Adams: Injured for first part of season. Not performing well enough to be played
Coffield: Injured for most or the year
Hayes: injured for most of the year
Heath: Young developing ruckman not required to play and probably not ready
Highmore: Good form in VFL. Probably deserved a chance at some stage
McLennan: First year player injured for most of the year
Connolly: Has been good (and ordinary) at times. Probably deserved a shot at some stage

Out of all those players only Highmore would have realistically been considered for selection. Most other players dealt with significant lay-offs due to injury and simply do not have either the fitness or the body of work to justify selection.

We know that if they were fit, McKenzie, Coffield, and Hayes would have played in the senior team. Hotton may have got 3 or 4 games.

Only Highmore, Campbell, and Connolly could have genuinely been considered for selection this season, and realistically it would only have been as a back up, as there are players in the seniors who already have their respective positions covered.


You can't explore the value of players if they are not available or don't have the requisite fitness level to play in the seniors. You can't select them if their VFL form is ordinary, either. Selection integrity, anyone?


Can't stick this one on the coach. It's just not logical to do so.

...well said!

[shanegrambeau]

re. Skeptic’s excellent positive - neutral - negative list…

Butler - positive (coming off a declining base, running n tackling, trying to be creative)
Higgins - neutral (coming off a more positive, good hands, poor kicking)
Hill - positive (coming off ‘hiding-to-nothing’, tackling, smothering)*


Based on this year’s performance. Within a year or two, who knows?