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nostalgicsaint wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 7:19pm
Smashed in clearances.
Ross > Clark in clearances
Clark worst performed mid in that area.
I don't necessarily agree with the decision but this is the only logic that makes sense to me.
If you're going to make statements like 'worst performed mid' in clearances, it's best to at least have a bit of an understanding of pure whole numbers versus effectiveness for percentage of times a mid actually attends a stoppage
If you don't understand what I'm talking about, then don't stress, you're no different to the usual nuff nuff that posts on here
Ah potato cakes.
Here we go again.
1. Try reading. I'm not happy about Clark being dropped, simply trying to understand what the rationale might have been.
2. Attendance at stoppages is a stat I don't have access to however we do have access to a good proxy. Center bounce attendances.
For your reference.
Crouch 18 for 2 center clearances
Steele 16 for 1
Owens 14 for 1
Clark 11 for 0
Sinclair 4 for 1
Based on the above worst performed in that area.
Our other option is time on ground vs total clearance
Crouch 86% and 7 clearances
Steele 75% and 1
Owens 80% and 3
Clark. 67% and 1
Sinclair 86% and 1
This looks a bit better but when you consider all the others spend some time forward and back it is less impactful. I suspect part of the reason Clark has lower TOG % is because he is viewed as a pure mid option.
To finish the logic for you. Ross has been brought in to strengthen our midfield, Lyon likes his structures and the players bend around that. It would seem they deemed Clark the worst performed.
I responded to your first post nostalgic nuff nuff
You said
Ross > Clark in clearances
I agree that the inclusion of Seb in the team is good, however he had been poor at clearances for the year. You were comparing Clark with Seb, so the only way to do that is with yearly figures because Sebby didn't play last week.
You made a statement which implied that Ross is better at clearances. Where is the proof?
Now that you have access to the centre clearance and centre bounce attendance stats, let me know if your statement is true (even including Clark's poor effort against Carlton)
You a bit fried mate. No problem I'll give you that context as well.
H Clark 2023 averages.
Center clearances 1
Stoppage 1.9
Total 2.9
Clangers 3.6
Meters gained 262.
S Ross
Center 1.6
Stoppage 2.2
Total 3.8
Clangers 2.9
Meters gained 331
Again- I'm a massive Clark fan, hope he is the sub but this is the logic I can see for the change made to the side.
Stop manufacturing something to justify your nuff nuff opinion.
Averages do not equate to effectiveness.
You do understand what percentage and efficiency is, versus a pure whole number don't you?
Unfortunately the cba and TOG averages aren't provided.
Perhaps you should provide some data to refute my statement? I'm responding with what I have access to.
I've mounted a reasonable case to back my theory based on the resources at my disposal.
That's before we even consider that there may be a reason Clark hasn't been afforded the opportunity to contribute to his whole number through more time on ground and attendance at stoppages which also factors into the decision. (E.g. fitness and/or position flexibility)
I wouldn't say getting into a battle of wits with you is a battle with an unarmed man- you clearly know enough to believe you are more intelligent than you are. Frustrating.
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
nostalgicsaint wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 7:19pm
Smashed in clearances.
Ross > Clark in clearances
Clark worst performed mid in that area.
I don't necessarily agree with the decision but this is the only logic that makes sense to me.
If you're going to make statements like 'worst performed mid' in clearances, it's best to at least have a bit of an understanding of pure whole numbers versus effectiveness for percentage of times a mid actually attends a stoppage
If you don't understand what I'm talking about, then don't stress, you're no different to the usual nuff nuff that posts on here
Ah potato cakes.
Here we go again.
1. Try reading. I'm not happy about Clark being dropped, simply trying to understand what the rationale might have been.
2. Attendance at stoppages is a stat I don't have access to however we do have access to a good proxy. Center bounce attendances.
For your reference.
Crouch 18 for 2 center clearances
Steele 16 for 1
Owens 14 for 1
Clark 11 for 0
Sinclair 4 for 1
Based on the above worst performed in that area.
Our other option is time on ground vs total clearance
Crouch 86% and 7 clearances
Steele 75% and 1
Owens 80% and 3
Clark. 67% and 1
Sinclair 86% and 1
This looks a bit better but when you consider all the others spend some time forward and back it is less impactful. I suspect part of the reason Clark has lower TOG % is because he is viewed as a pure mid option.
To finish the logic for you. Ross has been brought in to strengthen our midfield, Lyon likes his structures and the players bend around that. It would seem they deemed Clark the worst performed.
I responded to your first post nostalgic nuff nuff
You said
Ross > Clark in clearances
I agree that the inclusion of Seb in the team is good, however he had been poor at clearances for the year. You were comparing Clark with Seb, so the only way to do that is with yearly figures because Sebby didn't play last week.
You made a statement which implied that Ross is better at clearances. Where is the proof?
Now that you have access to the centre clearance and centre bounce attendance stats, let me know if your statement is true (even including Clark's poor effort against Carlton)
You a bit fried mate. No problem I'll give you that context as well.
H Clark 2023 averages.
Center clearances 1
Stoppage 1.9
Total 2.9
Clangers 3.6
Meters gained 262.
S Ross
Center 1.6
Stoppage 2.2
Total 3.8
Clangers 2.9
Meters gained 331
Again- I'm a massive Clark fan, hope he is the sub but this is the logic I can see for the change made to the side.
Stop manufacturing something to justify your nuff nuff opinion.
Averages do not equate to effectiveness.
You do understand what percentage and efficiency is, versus a pure whole number don't you?
Unfortunately the cba and TOG averages aren't provided.
Perhaps you should provide some data to refute my statement? I'm responding with what I have access to.
I've mounted a reasonable case to back my theory based on the resources at my disposal.
That's before we even consider that there may be a reason Clark hasn't been afforded the opportunity to contribute to his whole number through more time on ground and attendance at stoppages which also factors into the decision. (E.g. fitness and/or position flexibility)
I wouldn't say getting into a battle of wits with you is a battle with an unarmed man- you clearly know enough to believe you are more intelligent than you are. Frustrating.
How many defenders will The Saints pick in the 2024 draft ?
I asked chatgpt to summarise this conversation in simple terms for you cheesy potatoes.
See below
ChatGPT
Nostalgicsaint's opinion is that while they may not entirely agree with the decision to drop Clark from the team, they believe it might have been based on his performance in clearances. They mention that Ross has been brought in to strengthen the midfield and that the coaches seem to value certain structures. They compare center bounce attendances and time on ground percentages, suggesting that Clark's lower time on ground could be a factor in the decision. They also mention that Ross has better average stats in terms of clearances, clangers, and meters gained, which they believe contributes to the decision. Overall, nostalgicsaint appears to use available statistics to support their perspective on the change in the team lineup.
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
nostalgicsaint wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 10:33pm
Unfortunately the cba and TOG averages aren't provided.
Thank you
Even though you don't have evidence you made this initial statement
Ross > Clark in clearances
The evidence is available and for this year Ross and Clark are neck and neck on centre bounce attendance efficiency ( i.e percentage clearance per attendance)
Last edited by Scollop on Sat 12 Aug 2023 12:58am, edited 1 time in total.
Identifying a more accurate potential methodology which isn't possible to produce actually doesn't diminish the evidence provided until such time the more accurate methodology can be executed.
What is important is to acknowledge the limitation but it doesn't preclude a conclusion based on the information we have at hand.
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
You shot your mouth off and searched for evidence afterward
Clark played the first 11 games of the year until he got injured.
Before his injury, Hunter Clark was third in effectiveness after Owens and Sinclair for centre bounce clearances (i.e Clearances as a percentage of centre bounce attendance).
Gresh also had better figures than our 3 amigos including Seb
Hunter has not been as effective in the last 3 games since he returned to the seniors.
That's a great website. You could have saved us all some time by sharing those stats earlier instead of questioning my ability to undetstand statistics.
Based on the information you shared I still cant think of a reason for dropping clark outside of recent clearance form and Sebs ability to spend more time on ground whilst providing the same level of clearance efficiency.
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
nostalgicsaint wrote: ↑Sat 12 Aug 2023 1:36am
That's a great website. You could have saved us all some time by sharing those stats earlier instead of questioning my ability to undetstand statistics.
Based on the information you shared I still cant think of a reason for dropping clark outside of recent clearance form and Sebs ability to spend more time on ground whilst providing the same level of clearance efficiency.
Seb also offers more run I think …not a total liability with ball on outside
I think Clark is gone too
nostalgicsaint wrote: ↑Sat 12 Aug 2023 1:36amThat's a great website. You could have saved us all some time by sharing those stats earlier instead of questioning my ability to undetstand statistics.
Based on the information you shared I still cant think of a reason for dropping clark outside of recent clearance form and Sebs ability to spend more time on ground whilst providing the same level of clearance efficiency.
You’re welcome
Seb has had time to hone his craft. I honestly believe if Hunter had as many opportunities as Seb, he probably would have gotten better at his clearance work the last 3-4 years. His injury interruptions haven’t helped
The other thing to note with clearance stats (imo) is that Seb was a beneficiary to both Billy Longer’s tap work for a couple of years and Paddy Ryder’s tap work for a couple of years. For all of Billy’s deficiencies, Billy was elite at tapping the ball to advantage.
At this time of year, when a few Richmond players are sore and sorry, I think Seb will have an advantage coming in fresh
I think we both agree that Clark has been a good contributor to the team wins this year and hopefully he’ll be sub and play a role Sunday as well. I also agree that Seb Ross will be invaluable for his run and we agree he is a better endurance athlete
saintbob wrote: ↑Thu 10 Aug 2023 7:51pm
WTAF, Paton added to the squad surely Lyon has seen enough of him
Really? It sounds like you think he was on Breust. I prefer my defenders to be able to defend.
I prefer my defenders to be able to think for themselves, not freeze under pressure and actually use the ball. He’s NFG and he won’t be at the club next year, where as the bloke who played on Breust will be.
Breust will be happy and a lot of other small forwards. Oh, and you bob. What pressure does Paton freeze under bob? It is certainly not the pressure of locking down a small forward.
Do you seriously think he’d have spent so long in the magoos this year, if he was so damn good at locking down small forwards???
Read how this started bob. You had a wobbly that he had got picked in the squad. He obviously went back to Sandy and has worked hard in that time so deserves the credit of selection. Paton overtook Webster for the small lockdown backman until Roughead wanted to relive his Glory days. I feel for the kid.
You are celebrating a bloke who allowed Breust to kick a career high, in his twilight years, on the basis his kicks appear sharp, when they are just as panicked as Paton's are when no one runs to space.
I do know that Paton has never had 5 (6) kicked on him. Yes, I do value defenders who can lock down. Paton actually makes the lives of Webster and Sinclair better by covering off for them. I think he's a selfless, determined player and hope he remains a Saint because he's disciplined and can actually defend.
[/quote
Yes Webster had 6 kicked on him, but clearly blind Freddy could see half of the goals were whilst Breust was cheating out the back and others were meant to be covering hence why RTB never blamed or dropped Webster.
Webster will finish top 10 in the B&F this year again, Paton might get 10 votes
Yes bob, a small forward cheating out the back is not new and certainly not an excuse for a defender being lit up. It's their craft to do that, a defender's craft is to stop that materialising into 6 goals.
Another who can have all their B&F votes, I want a flag contending team. I don't want to be sooking about a small defender being named in a squad. A player who had nothing to do with our capitualtion to Carlton.
Fingers crossed for this week, so we can play finals, where hopefully our small forwards can cheat out the back often enough and accurately enough to kick a winning score.
CURLY wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 7:23pm
Be interesting to see if Clark’s sub if not I’d suggest he’s got a small injury concern.
DB Copper is that Byrnes that has been dropped? I hope Lyon didn’t mention any flaws in his game.
Yep word is RTB sat down with Byrnes and told him he is:
1/ the worst player in the AFL
2/ a total liability
3/ to just get out - ffs
4/ no more, just no more
5/ s***
6/ etc, etc, etc repetitively
Young Byrnes left the meeting understanding exactly what he had to work on in his game to improve due the RTB’s constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
There's only one rule in the jungle! When the LYON's hungry, he eats!
CURLY wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 7:23pm
Be interesting to see if Clark’s sub if not I’d suggest he’s got a small injury concern.
DB Copper is that Byrnes that has been dropped? I hope Lyon didn’t mention any flaws in his game.
Yep word is RTB sat down with Byrnes and told him he is:
1/ the worst player in the AFL
2/ a total liability
3/ to just get out - ffs
4/ no more, just no more
5/ s***
6/ etc, etc, etc repetitively
Young Byrnes left the meeting understanding exactly what he had to work on in his game to improve due the RTB’s constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
Well he has a heap to work on then. Doubt he ever becomes a regular with his poor disposal and desision making.
CURLY wrote: ↑Fri 11 Aug 2023 7:23pm
Be interesting to see if Clark’s sub if not I’d suggest he’s got a small injury concern.
DB Copper is that Byrnes that has been dropped? I hope Lyon didn’t mention any flaws in his game.
Yep word is RTB sat down with Byrnes and told him he is:
1/ the worst player in the AFL
2/ a total liability
3/ to just get out - ffs
4/ no more, just no more
5/ s***
6/ etc, etc, etc repetitively
Young Byrnes left the meeting understanding exactly what he had to work on in his game to improve due the RTB’s constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
Well he has a heap to work on then. Doubt he ever becomes a regular with his poor disposal and desision making.
I wouldn’t argue that Byrnes may not make it past 50-60 games, similar to Lonie and would most likely be a depth player or in the 22-30 bracket on the playing list, whilst he remains.
There's only one rule in the jungle! When the LYON's hungry, he eats!
absolutely golden 
