Changing coaches has been a failure, IMHFO.

[nostalgicsaint]

I still trust Ross The Boss.

We have a 6th to 12th quality list. Currently we sit in the top half of that despite real challenges.

The kids have had serious game time.

We've been a chance of stealing games wr haven't deserved to win.

And most importantly the coach himself has highlighted he has issues with the same things the sooks on here have!!!

Perhaps give a new leader some actual time to impact change before you melt down. If we're in this position this time next year then I may have some more in common with you glass half empty sooks.

[Scollop]

Changing coaches has been a failure...

Depends

What are you looking at? The ladder? Win loss ratio? Have training standards improved? Have injury rates declined?

Do we look like we're playing better football than 2022?

If you're in the membership and sales departments are they happy?

Is Lethlean and Bassatt happy?

Even posing that question 18 games into an injury riddled season is ridiculous.

Who posed the question? Did I start the thread?

[saynta]

Changing coaches has been a failure...

Depends

What are you looking at? The ladder? Win loss ratio? Have training standards improved? Have injury rates declined?

Do we look like we're playing better football than 2022?

If you're in the membership and sales departments are they happy?

Is Lethlean and Bassatt happy?

Even posing that question 18 games into an injury riddled season is ridiculous.

Who posed the question? Did I start the thread?

I started the thread and there are no regrets from me. I would do it again if no one was asking the question or starting a debate. It is my view and I stick by it, unfortunately for those of us who are part of a long suffering community.

We are fed hope on a yearly basis only to see it smashed to bits on the rocks of reality.

[Sanctorum]

Isn’t it likely that it’s nothing to do with the coaches but simply that the continued injuries have finally caught up with us.
Looking at the forward line we are missed King, Membrey, Billings and Higgins replaced with three 19 y,o and an 18 y.o.
These kids covered in the early rounds but are now getting very tired and sore.
The midfield has had a banged up Steele and now Ross out as well with Clark just coming back.
Not a single game this year from Coffield, McKenzie and Hayes, and no real support for Marshall.
We need to draft and recruit well this next off season.

Yeah, I hear what you are saying, but at least the selectors could have tried something a bit different. Here's a thought, Give Campbell and Bytel a game or two since they are way too good for the VFL. They have been starring for weeks. But the selectors have turned their backs on both of them.I have yet to see a valid reason

IF they are good enough to be named as emergencies and as a sub in Bytel's case they are at least good enough to earn a shot at the big time.

You're not alone in these thoughts saynta, there have been many calls for the selectors to give games to Bytel and Campbell, I especially would like to see Max Heath get a game. On the latter, someone who I talked with yesterday who regularly atttends training sessions and VFL games told me that Heath is far too skinny still to play ruck in the AFL.

As for Tom Campbell, he was brought in last year and although he is very good in the seconds, the standard is way below AFL level. It's also pertinent to note that he was drafted as a rookie by Footscray in 2011, that's 12 years ago, and in all that time has only managed to play just 56 games in the seniors which includes 12 in 3 seasons at Arden Street. He is 32 in November and slow as a draught horse (even on a diet of God's little green apples) and unlikely to have much impact on the game at the higher level.

Bytel? It's likely that the selectors, including Sandringham coach Jake Batchelor, consider him not sufficiently up to the required standard to replace current midfielders.

As much as we like to lay the blame for these issues on Lyon, team selections are not the province of one man, the 3 assistants and a couple of others are also involved.

[saynta]

Isn’t it likely that it’s nothing to do with the coaches but simply that the continued injuries have finally caught up with us.
Looking at the forward line we are missed King, Membrey, Billings and Higgins replaced with three 19 y,o and an 18 y.o.
These kids covered in the early rounds but are now getting very tired and sore.
The midfield has had a banged up Steele and now Ross out as well with Clark just coming back.
Not a single game this year from Coffield, McKenzie and Hayes, and no real support for Marshall.
We need to draft and recruit well this next off season.

Yeah, I hear what you are saying, but at least the selectors could have tried something a bit different. Here's a thought, Give Campbell and Bytel a game or two since they are way too good for the VFL. They have been starring for weeks. But the selectors have turned their backs on both of them.I have yet to see a valid reason

IF they are good enough to be named as emergencies and as a sub in Bytel's case they are at least good enough to earn a shot at the big time.

You're not alone in these thoughts saynta, there have been many calls for the selectors to give games to Bytel and Campbell, I especially would like to see Max Heath get a game. On the latter, someone who I talked with yesterday who regularly atttends training sessions and VFL games told me that Heath is far too skinny still to play ruck in the AFL.

As for Tom Campbell, he was brought in last year and although he is very good in the seconds, the standard is way below AFL level. It's also pertinent to note that he was drafted as a rookie by Footscray in 2011, that's 12 years ago, and in all that time has only managed to play just 56 games in the seniors which includes 12 in 3 seasons at Arden Street. He is 32 in November and slow as a draught horse (even on a diet of God's little green apples) and unlikely to have much impact on the game at the higher level.

Bytel? It's likely that the selectors, including Sandringham coach Jake Batchelor, consider him not sufficiently up to the required standard to replace current midfielders.

As much as we like to lay the blame for these issues on Lyon, team selections are not the province of one man, the 3 assistants and a couple of others are also involved.

Yep, I hear you, but heath is listed at 97 ks on the AFL web site and Campbell maybe slow but he knows how to win a hitout to the advantage of his onballers and is a possession magnet.

If I remember correctly Diesel Williams was also regarded as slow.

At least they should try something different instead of raising the white flag as the coach seems to have done.

[D.B.Cooper]

This is just emotional, hysterical BS.

Now I’m no RTB fan boy… in fact, unlike the many who jumped on the bandwagon after RL left, forumites in this thread included… I fell off early 2010 and was critical even when we were making GFs.

That said… you cannot possibly make a measured and informed decision 18 rounds into the season. The man hasn’t even had a trade period yet or the opportunity to seriously adjust the list as he sees fit.

We started well and have fallen away. Given the injuries we’ve had and the youth coming through… calling what’s happened a failure is just out of step with reality.

Even comparisons with last season are illogical because it’s not entirely the same list/draw and RTB came on after the trade.
The earliest opportunity to really make a realistic assessment of where we are going will be after the draft + trade as that will give us an indication of what he’s properly seen as the changes to make and/or the direction take is going to be taken.

What I’m seeing right now is inconsistency, erratic play, injuries, youth, better fitness… the very definition of a complete mixed bag and transition.

Get a grip every one

Richo had 5 years and ppl were complaining when he was pushed
Ratts had 3 years and is heavily defended right now

RTB has had 18 games and the same ppl think it’s a disaster

This is emotional rubbish

I copied this as it is the most sensible and logical post in the thread.

I’m pissed off because we are s*** to watch and it’s as frustrating as hell, but we are 18 games into the tenure and we don’t have a big enough sample size to judge.

[saynta]

This is just emotional, hysterical BS.

Now I’m no RTB fan boy… in fact, unlike the many who jumped on the bandwagon after RL left, forumites in this thread included… I fell off early 2010 and was critical even when we were making GFs.

That said… you cannot possibly make a measured and informed decision 18 rounds into the season. The man hasn’t even had a trade period yet or the opportunity to seriously adjust the list as he sees fit.

We started well and have fallen away. Given the injuries we’ve had and the youth coming through… calling what’s happened a failure is just out of step with reality.

Even comparisons with last season are illogical because it’s not entirely the same list/draw and RTB came on after the trade.
The earliest opportunity to really make a realistic assessment of where we are going will be after the draft + trade as that will give us an indication of what he’s properly seen as the changes to make and/or the direction take is going to be taken.

What I’m seeing right now is inconsistency, erratic play, injuries, youth, better fitness… the very definition of a complete mixed bag and transition.

Get a grip every one

Richo had 5 years and ppl were complaining when he was pushed
Ratts had 3 years and is heavily defended right now

RTB has had 18 games and the same ppl think it’s a disaster

This is emotional rubbish

I copied this as it is the most sensible and logical post in the thread.

I’m pissed off because we are s*** to watch and it’s as frustrating as hell, but we are 18 games into the tenure and we don’t have a big enough sample size to judge.

So what are your views on the coach saying he can't fix this, at least not until the next preseason. Isn't that raising a white flag .

Surely our super coach and his panel of assistants aren't bereft of ideas. They are paid heaps.

I have never seen such an inept unskilful performance as that dished up yesterday by a Saints side so the sample size is more than enough for me to at least have an opinion about how far we have regressed this season.

[skeptic]

The way I figure it… people just hate Ross Lyon. And I totally get:
Unattractive playing style
Should have won a flag in 09-10
Lied when he walked out
The affair stuff
Bit of a smug guy

I get all of that…. Heck I agree with most of it.

But the reality is that none of that is relevant to what is happening now. It’s just not.

Anyone locked into the hate right now is jaded by that other stuff as opposed to actually having a measured understanding of what’s going on now and where RTB is taking things

[whiskers3614]

The way I figure it… people just hate Ross Lyon. And I totally get:
Unattractive playing style
Should have won a flag in 09-10
Lied when he walked out
The affair stuff
Bit of a smug guy

I get all of that…. Heck I agree with most of it.

But the reality is that none of that is relevant to what is happening now. It’s just not.

Anyone locked into the hate right now is jaded by that other stuff as opposed to actually having a measured understanding of what’s going on now and where RTB is taking things

Yes but feeding us bulls*** again!

[Moods]

It’s actually quite funny reading a thread like this after the game yesterday. The reason I find it funny it’s because I’m one of the fortunate ones who hasn’t seen the game yet. So taking the emotion out of what was clearly a pathetic performance, my reaction was one of almost indifference. The reason I say that. is because at the start of the year these types of performances were almost expected. By playing so well at the start of the year, we built up false expectation. Hell even I bought into it and thought we might just be better than what I thought.

Out of curiosity, what are the Other pathetic performances people are referring to? The one thing I have been quite impressed with this year is even when we lose. We are generally fighting the game out. That is not something I could say we did under ratten. I’ll judge Lyon after three years, which is what Ratten got.

[whiskers3614]

Pathetic vs
Hawks
Crows
Roos
Eagles

[saynta]

Pathetic vs
Hawks
Crows
Roos
Eagles

Wasn't hard to identify.

[whiskers3614]

Next 2 weeks may set a new PB for pathetic!

[Ghost Like]

So if we subjectively select games from last season we deem to be pathetic, wins & losses, and they tally more than 4, is that an improvement on last season?

By the way, I agree those 4 games were offensively pathetic in the scheme of pathetivism.

We are like the boy with the barrow so "let the cobblers cobble".

[Scollop]

I’m pissed off because we are s*** to watch and it’s as frustrating as hell, but we are 18 games into the tenure and we don’t have a big enough sample size to judge.

So what are your views on the coach saying he can't fix this, at least not until the next preseason. Isn't that raising a white flag .

Surely our super coach and his panel of assistants aren't bereft of ideas. They are paid heaps.

I have never seen such an inept unskilful performance as that dished up yesterday by a Saints side so the sample size is more than enough for me to at least have an opinion about how far we have regressed this season.

I think the club and coach and players went into this game with a genuine belief that we would win and set ourselves up to secure a spot in finals.

The coach declared straight after the game that his players aren't good enough, and as you say, the fact that he's raised the white flag must be concerning if you're a player.

Not good for a coach to write off the players and call stumps straight after tea. Looks like we're tanking from here on.

For those having a punt: stay away from the St Kilda games.

[Mr Magic]

The way I figure it… people just hate Ross Lyon. And I totally get:
Unattractive playing style
Should have won a flag in 09-10
Lied when he walked out
The affair stuff
Bit of a smug guy

I get all of that…. Heck I agree with most of it.

But the reality is that none of that is relevant to what is happening now. It’s just not.

Anyone locked into the hate right now is jaded by that other stuff as opposed to actually having a measured understanding of what’s going on now and where RTB is taking things

Yes but feeding us bulls*** again!

Of course they are
because
so many just couldn’t handle the truth if they heard it

[SaintWiki]

Lyon better start sacking players before the Prez starts sacking coaches..............again.

I believe the club (and the supporters have been made aware) that the coaching staff are using this season as list assessment so it's pointless blaming RL for the list and it's capability of performances. I was far from a RL fan/lover in the first place but after he was given the job I couldn't see any other available standout coaches to choose instead, so I ended up biting the bullet and decided to support the club and coaching staff, and so far, although the losses hurt deeply, after a few hours after each loss I contemplate and remind myself of the clubs current strategy, This is a year of developing young players and the beginning of the 'new' rebuild strategy - This makes me feel much better, no matter how old and stupid I am. Dumping coaches and deciding which players are needed to go is way out my complete understanding in the cold light of day, especially considering I am not privy to all the details as much as the club and believe we really don't have any A or B grade players just hanging around in the sidelines twiddling their thumbs. Because of the AFL system we are required to meet the protocols regarding the improvement of our list and if/when they stuff thing up in recruitment or current player development, that'll be the right time to scream blue murder IMHO.

[Teflon]

Changing coaches has been a failure...

Depends

What are you looking at? The ladder? Win loss ratio? Have training standards improved? Have injury rates declined?

Do we look like we're playing better football than 2022?

If you're in the membership and sales departments are they happy?

Is Lethlean and Bassatt happy?

Even posing that question 18 games into an injury riddled season is ridiculous.

It is
It’s click bait posting but mods do little

Posters are entitled to express their own opinions on footy matters without interference from the mods even with you running off to them every day ffs.

Reported for baiting

[Teflon]

The way I figure it… people just hate Ross Lyon. And I totally get:
Unattractive playing style
Should have won a flag in 09-10
Lied when he walked out
The affair stuff
Bit of a smug guy

I get all of that…. Heck I agree with most of it.

But the reality is that none of that is relevant to what is happening now. It’s just not.

Anyone locked into the hate right now is jaded by that other stuff as opposed to actually having a measured understanding of what’s going on now and where RTB is taking things

Yes but feeding us bulls*** again!

Of course they are
because
so many just couldn’t handle the truth if they heard it

I think so many got caught up in the early wins and really thought ..”gee we are a top 4 side!”
We are barely 8th
People crafted their own narrative and now we are back to where we truly sit….don’t like what they’re seeing in the mirror
We are a pretty beige, average list …few stars …NO midfield stars
As others have said ….when you understand that and as long as decisions taken end year take us forward….that’s ok
Enjoy the kids development- they’re the benchmark for what we need to become
IF the Windhagers Owens NWMs Pou etc all turn into Billing’s V 2.0 …..then we are in deep Shiite …..cause there goes our star power ….

[Moods]

Pathetic vs
Hawks
Crows
Roos
Eagles

Yeah, ok. I disagree. Crows and hawks were pretty bad although crows the only blowout. I was satisfied with eagles game. Even Hawks game, whilst disappointing, they aren’t as bad as ladder position indicates.

Pathetic to me, is completely uncompetitive.

[Brunswicksainter]

I probably shouldn't be posting this afternoon after that sickening inept display, but I have seen nothing this year that in any way indicates that RTB is a superior coach in the present time than the contracted one the board sacked.

I really feel for Ratts.

Ratten was so inept as a coach we would have been bottom 4 if he stayed.

His record both with us and at Carlton given the lists had at his disposal is a joke. Only made it as far as he did because he's a nice guy.

[Teflon]

I probably shouldn't be posting this afternoon after that sickening inept display, but I have seen nothing this year that in any way indicates that RTB is a superior coach in the present time than the contracted one the board sacked.

I really feel for Ratts.

Ratten was so inept as a coach we would have been bottom 4 if he stayed.

His record both with us and at Carlton given the lists had at his disposal is a joke. Only made it as far as he did because he's a nice guy.

Ratten clearly out of his depth but a good guy.
Below from BF is a very valid point:

*******
This is Ratten's list. Ross hasn't had the chance to cut the players he doesn't want, and hasn't had the chance to influence the list at all, outside of Caminiti and Stocker, who arrived after he got the job.

[Vortex]

I probably shouldn't be posting this afternoon after that sickening inept display, but I have seen nothing this year that in any way indicates that RTB is a superior coach in the present time than the contracted one the board sacked.

I really feel for Ratts.

Ratten was so inept as a coach we would have been bottom 4 if he stayed.

His record both with us and at Carlton given the lists had at his disposal is a joke. Only made it as far as he did because he's a nice guy.

Ratten clearly out of his depth but a good guy.
Below from BF is a very valid point:

*******
This is Ratten's list. Ross hasn't had the chance to cut the players he doesn't want, and hasn't had the chance to influence the list at all, outside of Caminiti and Stocker, who arrived after he got the job.

Yeah but isn’t Ross a great motivator and sets standards and gets the best out of players and be improves players and demands 100 % effort 100% of the time.

Clearly be hasn’t done been able to improve this list so what makes you so confident he can do it by changing the players. He couldn’t do it at Freo. Why so confident because you could argue we look worse than under Ratts.

[Teflon]

I probably shouldn't be posting this afternoon after that sickening inept display, but I have seen nothing this year that in any way indicates that RTB is a superior coach in the present time than the contracted one the board sacked.

I really feel for Ratts.

Ratten was so inept as a coach we would have been bottom 4 if he stayed.

His record both with us and at Carlton given the lists had at his disposal is a joke. Only made it as far as he did because he's a nice guy.

Ratten clearly out of his depth but a good guy.
Below from BF is a very valid point:

*******
This is Ratten's list. Ross hasn't had the chance to cut the players he doesn't want, and hasn't had the chance to influence the list at all, outside of Caminiti and Stocker, who arrived after he got the job.

Yeah but isn’t Ross a great motivator and sets standards and gets the best out of players and be improves players and demands 100 % effort 100% of the time.

Clearly be hasn’t done been able to improve this list so what makes you so confident he can do it by changing the players. He couldn’t do it at Freo. Why so confident because you could argue we look worse than under Ratts.

I think we have overrated the list though to be honest. Guys like Ross, Hill, Howard will keep you around 10th place but we need some quality or it just extends the mediocrity. Most are coming up to the end of their careers now and a few are near the end. Sinclair, Webster, Hill, Ross, Membrey and Wood are all 29 or 30 next year. Probably a year or two left in most of them before they slow down and become depth. Injury has exposed the weaknesses in the list more than last year at the moment. A fast start has probably got us all a bit overly optimistic.

We need more youth in and more quality across the board.

Lyon got Freo to a GF
Started the rebuild they lost patience
Serong Brayshaw recruited under Lyon
Do I know he has the ability to re-build?
Nope no one does
I do know this is Lyons hill to die
Bassatt is 110% behind him and the Board now know we need to make changes ….no middle of table cr@p
Lyon has the room to make the changes and I think he will
His presser was as close to the honesty heard behind closed doors as it gets…he’s seen enough
But pot shot away ! No one really thinks you believe what you post

[Bowey Boy]

It’s the lack of quality cattle.